Meme Thread for Both Posting and Discussing Memes

Scottty said:
It sounds as if you are trying to blame Christians for the actions of non-Christians, as far as I can tell.
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You don't get nearly the same totalitarian governments or refusal of standards without the "One True Way" thinking or utopian expectations introduced by Christianity. Essentially, I'm looking at the horrors of the 20th Century as overwhelmingly post-Christian problems, created by its failings and characterized by parts of its ethics separated from the overall worldview.

There's not exactly many "pagan" influential thinkers in 19th-century Germany to be influencing Karl Marx with all that much non-Christian thought, for instance.

Are you confusing "extreme personal authority" with extreme personal autonomy?
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No, the relative "flatness" of innate moral worth and largely independent church organizations with anti-nepotism measures made for a lot less endorsement for one man working to lord over all because entirely separately from any local law or tradition there were codified ethical standards in the way of writing off the masses as powerless labor to be expended like you got over in China.
 
Morphic Tide said:
There's not exactly many "pagan" influential thinkers in 19th-century Germany to be influencing Karl Marx with all that much non-Christian thought, for instance.
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If you were actually familiar with both Marx and Christian doctrine, you'd know that his thinking was basically completely antithetical to Christianity, and explicitly heavily influenced by French philosophical trends that rose to prominence in and in the aftermath of the French revolution, which also rejected both Christianity and Christian cultural influence.

Marx is little different than any other narcissist bent towards atheism in any other era. About the only advantage he has over any of them is a cool beard, and he's frankly inferior to most.
 
LordsFire said:
If you were actually familiar with both Marx and Christian doctrine, you'd know that his thinking was basically completely antithetical to Christianity, and explicitly heavily influenced by French philosophical trends that rose to prominence in and in the aftermath of the French revolution, which also rejected both Christianity and Christian cultural influence.
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Marx was heavily influenced by Mikhail Bakunin's views on Satan in critique of Christianity, Satan shows ups up over and over again in Marx's poems and vision for the communist utopia, and a lot of his other university advisors were anti-Christian Hegelians. Essentially, he was so anti-Christian that he glorified Satan, and then borrowed that imagery for use in other areas of his life and thought. I'm not saying that he was a literal Satanist, since that would imply some manner of spiritual worship, rather he projected himself onto Satan as a rebelling force that would usurp god from the governorship of reality.
 
Yinko said:
Marx was heavily influenced by Mikhail Bakunin's views on Satan in critique of Christianity, Satan shows ups up over and over again in Marx's poems and vision for the communist utopia, and a lot of his other university advisors were anti-Christian Hegelians. Essentially, he was so anti-Christian that he glorified Satan, and then borrowed that imagery for use in other areas of his life and thought. I'm not saying that he was a literal Satanist, since that would imply some manner of spiritual worship, rather he projected himself onto Satan as a rebelling force that would usurp god from the governorship of reality.
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Yes, I am aware that his thoughts ran in that direction.
 
Yinko said:
Marx was heavily influenced by Mikhail Bakunin's views on Satan in critique of Christianity, Satan shows ups up over and over again in Marx's poems and vision for the communist utopia, and a lot of his other university advisors were anti-Christian Hegelians. Essentially, he was so anti-Christian that he glorified Satan, and then borrowed that imagery for use in other areas of his life and thought. I'm not saying that he was a literal Satanist, since that would imply some manner of spiritual worship, rather he projected himself onto Satan as a rebelling force that would usurp god from the governorship of reality.
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This honestly explains a lot about how communism killed so many people
 
LordsFire said:
If you were actually familiar with both Marx and Christian doctrine, you'd know that his thinking was basically completely antithetical to Christianity, and explicitly heavily influenced by French philosophical trends that rose to prominence in and in the aftermath of the French revolution, which also rejected both Christianity and Christian cultural influence.
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As it pertains to the statement in question, it's that the two ran expressly contrary to portions of Christian morality while monstrously over-exagerating others. Marx was a moral universalist, the French Revolution stemmed from rejecting hereditary aristocrats on the basis of equal innate value of men, these philosophies behind those atrocities are the natural aftermath of Christianity.

Because when your culture decides that absolutely all morality flows from a single otherwordly entity, and you reject that entity because its otherworldlyness makes it look like centuries of baseless pretend, a well-developed moral compass becomes a complete pain in the ass as there's no solid foundation ready to turn to.

This is a problem we would not have if the Catholic Church were not hypocritical jackasses giving people very compelling reasons to stop being Christian and the early faithful were not totalizing jackasses doing their best to purge all the other moral foundations, including ivory-tower struggle sessions with slightly different Christians getting so nasty that a Roman Emperor had to drag the most influential to a room to conclude their bitching and exile the man who refused.
 
Morphic Tide said:
As it pertains to the statement in question, it's that the two ran expressly contrary to portions of Christian morality while monstrously over-exagerating others. Marx was a moral universalist, the French Revolution stemmed from rejecting hereditary aristocrats on the basis of equal innate value of men, these philosophies behind those atrocities are the natural aftermath of Christianity.

Because when your culture decides that absolutely all morality flows from a single otherwordly entity, and you reject that entity because its otherworldlyness makes it look like centuries of baseless pretend, a well-developed moral compass becomes a complete pain in the ass as there's no solid foundation ready to turn to.

This is a problem we would not have if the Catholic Church were not hypocritical jackasses giving people very compelling reasons to stop being Christian and the early faithful were not totalizing jackasses doing their best to purge all the other moral foundations, including ivory-tower struggle sessions with slightly different Christians getting so nasty that a Roman Emperor had to drag the most influential to a room to conclude their bitching and exile the man who refused.
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Why are you so hellbent on blaming Christianity for problems inherent to any human society and culture?

I'm still trying to figure out how you come to the conclusion that acting in direct contradiction to all that Christianity stands for is the 'natural aftermath' of Christianity.

How is embracing lies that someone was specifically warned against, the fault of the person who warned them?
 
LordsFire said:
I'm still trying to figure out how you come to the conclusion that acting in direct contradiction to all that Christianity stands for is the 'natural aftermath' of Christianity.
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There has to be something to react to in order to be a reactionary. For comparison, Buddhism is a semi-nihilistic reaction to Hinduism, and could be interpreted as a natural consequence of it. If Europe had remained pagan till this day, then there would have been other reactionary movements, which we cannot easily imagine. Anything taken to its extreme becomes evil, and reactionary movement are easily taken to extremes.
 
Yinko said:
There has to be something to react to in order to be a reactionary. For comparison, Buddhism is a semi-nihilistic reaction to Hinduism, and could be interpreted as a natural consequence of it. If Europe had remained pagan till this day, then there would have been other reactionary movements, which we cannot easily imagine. Anything taken to its extreme becomes evil, and reactionary movement are easily taken to extremes.
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That's like blaming roads for car wrecks. Christianity is the best balance of social controls and personal freedom the planet has found to date. Complaining that it's too good at it's job of holding your civilization together that it makes counter movements especially brutal is certainly an odd take though.
 
Circle of Willis said:
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@Circle of Willis

dating a Turkish friend and actually finding out that most Kurds are not like Ocalan and there is a reason why Syrian Kurds have not unanimously declared for indenpedence. One of them was wearing hijab and getting married (or something very close to it) to her boyfriend at age 22.

Another of her friends wanted I was supposed to be hosted with my Turkish friend to another Kurdish friend and all of her friends were surprised when her Kurdish mom accepted , BUT I would be my Turkish friend not as A BOYFRIEND but has as the Italian-Brazilian friend from Erasmus that came to visit her. Also I was supposed to stay IN the house and my Turkish friend would go to her Kurdish friend's mom's place and it would be only women for THAT day specifically Somehow this friend's mom didn't connect the dots that I was more than that since I was visiting from another continent just to see a "friend".

We canceled last minute because we didn't know if another Kurdish late comer would also be present and be comfortable with a Western guy in the house.

The Kurds that adopted anything Leftist was likely due to :

  1. Cold War
  2. Even with Kemalism Turkey stayed conservative in many aspects
  3. Because of 2 and forced attempted Turkification of course any ideology does the job
  4. Non-Kemalist secularity and leftism is a very RECENT phenomenon dating to point 1
  5. MAYBE also the Anglo-Iranian invasion of Iran since Stalin did create out of thin air this Republic of Mahabad - Wikipedia
 
Morphic Tide said:
You don't get nearly the same totalitarian governments or refusal of standards without the "One True Way" thinking or utopian expectations introduced by Christianity. Essentially, I'm looking at the horrors of the 20th Century as overwhelmingly post-Christian problems, created by its failings and characterized by parts of its ethics separated from the overall worldview.

There's not exactly many "pagan" influential thinkers in 19th-century Germany to be influencing Karl Marx with all that much non-Christian thought, for instance.
Click to expand...

We are not in a position to compare post-Christian Europe with "never-was-Christian" Europe, as the latter is purely a what-if.
But we can certainly take a look at societies in parts of the world without direct Christian influence until more recent times... and what we find there is often not pretty.
The Aztec empire, for the poster-boy example.

Morphic Tide said:
No, the relative "flatness" of innate moral worth and largely independent church organizations with anti-nepotism measures made for a lot less endorsement for one man working to lord over all because entirely separately from any local law or tradition there were codified ethical standards in the way of writing off the masses as powerless labor to be expended like you got over in China.
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So now... are you saying this is a good or bad thing? Would you prefer a system like that of China?
 
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