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Armchair General's DonbAss Derailed Discussion Thread (Topics Include History, Traps, and the Ongoing Slavic Civil War plus much much more)

History Learner

Well-known member
I don't put much stock in any of the numbers being released, Twenty years after the conflict ends we might have something relatively accurate but right now its all likely bullshit.

It's why I don't use either side's claims for the other and use multiple data points for their own; case in point, I've never cited Russian MoD for AFU losses. For Russian losses, I use the BBC and verifiable Western sources; I've cited the CIA director, for example, in late July.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Given, even if we take this at face value, you're conceding the Soviets still won, what does that say about the current war? In reality, I think you need to consider the fact the Soviets achieved their territorial goals, which led to the cession of ~10% of the country's territories.



And the Nazis helped the Italians because the Brits were helping the Greeks? Why? Because the Greeks were in danger of collapse; they had exhausted their munition stocks and Italians had moved reinforcements in for a Spring campaign. Sounds a lot like 2023 is shaping up, no?

If Ukraine loses just 10% of its territory, then it essentially wins the war. Russia won't get access to most of Ukraine's human capital or natural resources in such a scenario.

Nazi help to the Italians was much greater than British help to the Greeks. At least after the Nazis actually invaded both Yugoslavia and Greece. Are you suggesting that without Nazi help, Greece would have been on the verge of collapse in 1941?
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
And let's not even mention Israel vs Arab League in 1947...
To those who throw around numbers with zero understanding of the many devils in their details this would seem like a reality breach.

FWIW, I'd also mention the US vs. the Taliban and the US vs. North Vietnam, but the US did win a conventional war against the former and might have done so against the latter as well had it invaded North Vietnam and China did not intervene (which is a dubious proposition, though). It's finishing off the insurgency that the US was very bad at.

One could also look at the Balkan League vs. the Ottoman Empire in 1912-1913 and at Italy vs. Ethiopia in 1895-1896. Though both of those were quick wars.
 

History Learner

Well-known member
If Ukraine loses just 10% of its territory, then it essentially wins the war. Russia won't get access to most of Ukraine's human capital or natural resources in such a scenario.

Indeed, which is why it's important to realize Russia currently controls about 20% of Ukrainian territory and the referendums spell out their desire for more.

Nazi help to the Italians was much greater than British help to the Greeks. At least after the Nazis actually invaded both Yugoslavia and Greece. Are you suggesting that without Nazi help, Greece would have been on the verge of collapse in 1941?

Yes, Greece would've still collapsed. They were over-extended outside their defensive lines, were outnumbered horrifically and had exhausted their artillery supply. The Germans over-committed because they were concerned about the British bombing Ploesti.
 

History Learner

Well-known member
FWIW, I'd also mention the US vs. the Taliban and the US vs. North Vietnam, but the US did win a conventional war against the former and might have done so against the latter as well had it invaded North Vietnam and China did not intervene (which is a dubious proposition, though). It's finishing off the insurgency that the US was very bad at.

One could also look at the Balkan League vs. the Ottoman Empire in 1912-1913 and at Italy vs. Ethiopia in 1895-1896. Though both of those were quick wars.

This is entirely my point; all of the examples you cite show cases where superior economics were leveraged to win the conventional war. Insurgencies are something else, however.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Indeed, which is why it's important to realize Russia currently controls about 20% of Ukrainian territory and the referendums spell out their desire for more.



Yes, Greece would've still collapsed. They were over-extended outside their defensive lines, were outnumbered horrifically and had exhausted their artillery supply. The Germans over-committed because they were concerned about the British bombing Ploesti.

To be fair, 7% of that territory was controlled before the war (if one considers separatist territories as de facto Russian), so Russia only increased its percentage of Ukrainian territory by 13% or so. 13% is very close to 10%.

Interesting. I haven't heard that analysis before, actually.

I wonder if the Ottoman Empire could have lasted longer against the Balkan League in 1912-1913 and done better had the war continued. Ditto for Italy vs. Ethiopia in 1895-1896.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
This is entirely my point; all of the examples you cite show cases where superior economics were leveraged to win the conventional war. Insurgencies are something else, however.

FWIW, I would expect the Ukrainians to combine a campaign of non-violent resistance (perhaps similar to Solidarity in Poland in the 1980s) combined with terrorism (similar to the IRA in Northern Ireland) in the event of a Russian conquest of their territories. Though many, if not most, will no doubt emigrate either to what remains of Free Ukraine or to the West.

The issue is that Russia has lost the war for the hearts and minds of Ukrainians:


The average eastern Ukrainian right now is probably less supportive of Eurasian integration than the average Pole was 110 years ago.
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
No, I'm actually using him as a single data point among many others, which you've curiously left out.

Ah yes, present company excluded, which would include U.S. intelligence, Zelensky, three of his top advisers, etc. I've already shown how much you get duped in the other thread, so take this as a lesson to do better and try to learn what you're arguing about before you do.

Your tweet that Ukraine lost ten thousand dead in three weeks is based on a single data point from an Journalist you've already stated is unreliable yet you'll cherry pick him now because he agrees with your estimates, which are based these statements which you state is "official admitted Ukrainian losses."

Arestoyvych literally stated: "Something like that" in respond to the number ten thousand.



US Intelligence Stated:

New York Times said:
Ukraine’s losses have also been steep, though the government has declined to offer specific figures even to American officials. U.S. intelligence agencies estimate 5,500 to 11,000 killed and more than 18,000 wounded, but the wide range indicates the uncertainty in the figures.

That is a definition of a low confidence estimate when the number of dead is doubled and told by an anonymous source barely on background. Though the wounded seems surprisingly on point. Yet no one will start with estimates of six thousand KIA I guess. :p

And the rest of your "official" tally is just throwing one of a few different numbers across a pattern of weeks. Yet somehow extrapolating between 30-200 dead a day based off of a low confidence estimate median from 5500-11000 five months ago and then reinforcing that with a single data point from a Ukrainian Defense Reporter that ten thousand have been killed in the past three weeks despite him also stating, citing the AFU Commander-in-Chief that almost 9,000 were killed up to August.





It seems that the above is the closest we've gotten to "Official Admitted Ukrainian Losses" sadly.



Your basing the ten thousand dead in the past three weeks off of a single data point which you yourself have stated is unreliable. There's absolutely nothing that Arestoyvych or Zelensky or the CIA estimates back in April that factor in the above tweet. Illia Ponomarenko disagreed with the CIA back in April and cited 9000 from a statement from the AFU instead of the "Something like that" 10,000 number from Arestovych. Yet now, we are to be led to believe, oh... he actually doesn't agree with what he posted earlier, he actually agrees with a high end interpretation of the CIA estimate, History Learners tallying of the day by day dead average, the "something like that" estimate of ten thousand dead by Arestoyvych, and this all happened in the past three weeks since he and his newspaper cited the AFU Commander in Chief stating casualties of "almost 9000 Ukrainian dead."

You are working off of low confidence estimates, then tallying up more low confidence estimates and applying those averages across weeks and months of conflict. I'm sure its a fun mathematical exercise but it doesn't mean anything substantial.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
FWIW, I'd also mention the US vs. the Taliban and the US vs. North Vietnam, but the US did win a conventional war against the former and might have done so against the latter as well had it invaded North Vietnam and China did not intervene (which is a dubious proposition, though). It's finishing off the insurgency that the US was very bad at.

One could also look at the Balkan League vs. the Ottoman Empire in 1912-1913 and at Italy vs. Ethiopia in 1895-1896. Though both of those were quick wars.
Those are in the category of optional overseas adventures of US, subject to their own logistical challenges and political whims of democracy vs the optionality of the conflict.
Israel vs Arabs though, that was a direct, land border based war for territory (with outright land encirclement of Israel as a bonus), with lots of motivation among the population, rather than high level political scheming.
 

History Learner

Well-known member
FWIW, I would expect the Ukrainians to combine a campaign of non-violent resistance (perhaps similar to Solidarity in Poland in the 1980s) combined with terrorism (similar to the IRA in Northern Ireland) in the event of a Russian conquest of their territories. Though many, if not most, will no doubt emigrate either to what remains of Free Ukraine or to the West.

The issue is that Russia has lost the war for the hearts and minds of Ukrainians:


The average eastern Ukrainian right now is probably less supportive of Eurasian integration than the average Pole was 110 years ago.

And yet, we've seen very little actual resistance in the Russian rear. It's mostly consisted of people Kiev sent in, rather than natives going off. A lot of these polls you need to understand in the context of them being state funded with all that implies in a country with authoritarian controls, horrific corruption and that hasn't conducted a census in over 20 years which means data tends to be...funny.
 

History Learner

Well-known member
Your tweet that Ukraine lost ten thousand dead in three weeks is based on a single data point from an Journalist you've already stated is unreliable yet you'll cherry pick him now because he agrees with your estimates, which are based these statements which you state is "official admitted Ukrainian losses."

In reality, it was part of a series of data points as I said, it's why you have to keep leaving out portions of my reply and rearranging it because to do otherwise shows exactly what I said. Case in point:

To answer your question, probably Spring to Summer; really depends on how bad this winter is for them and it's looking really bad now. We are consistently getting reports of 5:1 losses on the Kherson axis and it was recently revealed by one of their own mouth pieces that they've taken 10,000 KIA between that and the recent Kharkov success:



Based on self admitted casualty rates in the Summer from Ukrainian authorities, that would suggest another 30,000 WIA, PoWs, MIA, etc to the KIA total.


In the very first paragraph, I cite a source before I cited that one; are you really that bad at reading or can we assume you're just that bad faith? I immediately follow it up with this guy and then follow that up with a link to a past post that contained five other links to show the progression in Ukrainian losses.

Arestoyvych literally stated: "Something like that" in respond to the number ten thousand.



Indeed, he also said a number that aligned with U.S. intelligence estimates and what Zelensky was saying; there's this thing called preponderance of evidence. I don't take any single source as gospel, I back it up with multiple others as you do in the real world.

US Intelligence Stated:

That is a definition of a low confidence estimate when the number of dead is doubled and told by an anonymous source barely on background. Though the wounded seems surprisingly on point. Yet no one will start with estimates of six thousand KIA I guess. :p

Hence why I took the median estimate of theirs, and backed it up by showing the later statements by numerous Ukrainian officials; Arestoyvych's figure matches it perfectly, although it came two months later. Switch out either and the math still works, because I didn't start applying the other numbers until June.

And the rest of your "official" tally is just throwing one of a few different numbers across a pattern of weeks. Yet somehow extrapolating between 30-200 dead a day based off of a low confidence estimate median from 5500-11000 five months ago and then reinforcing that with a single data point from a Ukrainian Defense Reporter that ten thousand have been killed in the past three weeks despite him also stating, citing the AFU Commander-in-Chief that almost 9,000 were killed up to August.

Putting official in quotations is interesting because I literally cite Zelensky and his senior officials; are we to assume the people in charge of Ukraine have no idea what the situation in their own army is? If so, really hammers home why boosting Ukraine is a bad idea if there is that much high level confusion in their command and control.

Likewise, again, we are forced to realize your analytical capabilities do not exist or you're a bad faith actor, because I didn't cite U.S. intelligence to come to those daily loss figures; Ukraine did. Here's Zelensky doing exactly that, from June 1st:

"The situation is very difficult; we're losing 60-100 soldiers per day as killed in action and something around 500 people as wounded in action. So we are holding our defensive perimeters."​

Here's his adviser Mykhaylo Podolyak updating daily losses to between 100-200 KIA. A few days later, another Zelensky adviser, David Arakhamia, stated they were losing 300 to 500 KIA a day. In actuality, I've not extrapolated anything, I've literally been taking the senior leadership of Ukraine at their word. That you cited the post I said this in really drives home you either don't know or you're lying for the sake of not wanting to admit you're wrong, which is it?

It seems that the above is the closest we've gotten to "Official Admitted Ukrainian Losses" sadly.

My estimates do give a better idea, yes.

If you're referring to your delusions, then stop and do some basic math with me. Let's say Arestoyvych was off by about an order of magnitude and the real KIA was 8,000 instead of 10,000. Now, Zelensky in July said they were losing 30 a day to KIA and about 230 WIA. KIA alone from July 5th to September 5th is 1,800. WIA, however, is 13,800. Assuming recovery rates are the same for the Ukrainians as the Russians, at 90%, that still means another 1,400 men ultimately died of their wounds. So that's another 3,000 dead all together.

Why does this matter? The Ukrainian General you're citing specifically says fatalities, not KIA/died in battle, which means his figure would include all deaths. What's 8,000 plus another 3,000? A lot more than 9,000 to say the least.

Your basing the ten thousand dead in the past three weeks off of a single data point which you yourself have stated is unreliable. There's absolutely nothing that Arestoyvych or Zelensky or the CIA estimates back in April that factor in the above tweet. Illia Ponomarenko disagreed with the CIA back in April and cited 9000 from a statement from the AFU instead of the "Something like that" 10,000 number from Arestovych. Yet now, we are to be led to believe, oh... he actually doesn't agree with what he posted earlier, he actually agrees with a high end interpretation of the CIA estimate, History Learners tallying of the day by day dead average, the "something like that" estimate of ten thousand dead by Arestoyvych, and this all happened in the past three weeks since he and his newspaper cited the AFU Commander in Chief stating casualties of "almost 9000 Ukrainian dead."

Hence why I didn't cite Zelensky, the CIA, or any of them in my original post as the basis for recent claims; that's entirely an invention of yours. Who I did cite, however, was a Washington Post article interviewing numerous other Ukrainians, doing on the ground research, and then cited Ponomarenko who's statement matched with the report. I also included a link to a past post of mine that cited four senior Ukrainian officials, including their President, as well as an article by the NYT that gave estimates on Ukrainian losses in April so people could see the progression of losses in this war so far.

So, in other words, you're lying. It's that simple.

You are working off of low confidence estimates, then tallying up more low confidence estimates and applying those averages across weeks and months of conflict. I'm sure its a fun mathematical exercise but it doesn't mean anything substantial.

So the President of Ukraine and three of his senior advisers are low confidence estimates? Interesting move Cotton, let's see how it plays out. Speaking of playing that over the course of weeks and months, here's Zelensky doing exactly that:

In an interview with The Wall Street Journal, the President said that at the height of the hostilities in May and June, Ukraine was losing 100-200 servicemen per day, but now that number has dropped to 30, with about 250 injured per day, reports Ukrayinska Pravda.​
"I can tell you for sure, because I live with this every day," he asserted.

Weird Zelensky doesn't seem to agree with your assertion he's giving low confidence estimates.
 
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WolfBear

Well-known member
And yet, we've seen very little actual resistance in the Russian rear. It's mostly consisted of people Kiev sent in, rather than natives going off. A lot of these polls you need to understand in the context of them being state funded with all that implies in a country with authoritarian controls, horrific corruption and that hasn't conducted a census in over 20 years which means data tends to be...funny.

It doesn't make that much sense to resist in the Russian rear right now if you're still waiting for the Ukrainian military to liberate you, frankly.
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
In reality, it was part of a series of data points as I said, it's why you have to keep leaving out portions of my reply and rearranging it because to do otherwise shows exactly what I said. Case in point:

In the very first paragraph, I cite a source before I cited that one; are you really that bad at reading or can we assume you're just that bad faith? I immediately follow it up with this guy and then follow that up with a link to a past post that contained five other links to show the progression in Ukrainian losses.

Yes about that Washington Post source that said 5:1 casualties:

Washington Post said:
“We lost five people for every one they did,” said Ihor, a 30-year-old platoon commander who injured his back when the tank he was riding in crashed into a ditch.

So your only other data point is a Ukrainian Tank Platoon Commander in a hospital.

When we look further into the Washington Post article the only statement about casualties is this:

Washington Post said:
A clear picture of Ukraine’s losses could not be independently assessed.
Denys, sitting upright on his hospital bed, said almost every member of his 120-person unit was injured, though only two were killed.

Ihor, the platoon commander, said 16 of the 32 men under his command were injured and one was killed.

So this is Ihor who stated the casualties were five to one. So that means a 1/5th a Russian soldier died. And I guess three wounded.

So again.. the ten thousand lost is based on this platoon commander.

And us assuming that Illia Ponomorenko stated that ten thousand died in three weeks since he made this post:



As well as your Math based on a Low Confidence Estimate back in April:

New York Times said:
Ukraine’s losses have also been steep, though the government has declined to offer specific figures even to American officials. U.S. intelligence agencies estimate 5,500 to 11,000 killed and more than 18,000 wounded, but the wide range indicates the uncertainty in the figures.

And Arestoyvych stating: "Something like that."



And numbers ranging from 60-100, 100-200, 300-500 and 30 KIA a day taken as little as days apart that you apply consistently over weeks and months of time.

So the President of Ukraine and three of his senior advisers are low confidence estimates? Interesting move Cotton, let's see how it plays out. Speaking of playing that over the course of weeks and months, here's Zelensky doing exactly that:

In an interview with The Wall Street Journal, the President said that at the height of the hostilities in May and June, Ukraine was losing 100-200 servicemen per day, but now that number has dropped to 30, with about 250 injured per day, reports Ukrayinska Pravda.​
"I can tell you for sure, because I live with this every day," he asserted.

Weird Zelensky doesn't seem to agree with your assertion he's giving low confidence estimates.

Actually looking at that article...

Wall Street Journal said:
This change in the balance of firepower has stemmed Ukrainian casualties, Mr. Zelensky said. At the peak of fighting in May and June, he said, Ukraine was losing between 100 and 200 troops a day; now, it is down to some 30 fatalities a day and around 250 wounded.

“I can tell you exactly, because I live with this every day,” the Ukrainian president said, taking out his smartphone to consult figures just supplied by the military.

While Mr. Zelensky declined to disclose total Ukrainian military losses since the war began, citing military policy, he said they are a number of times lower than Russia’s. Ukraine’s military claims that 39,000 Russian troops have died in Ukraine, while Western estimates are about half that number.

FdNuLKRWIAEaaJ2


So he's sure that the casualties are down to 30 fatalities a day and around 250 wounded because of figures he "just consulted." There's nothing there to state he has exact confidence in a statement of 100-200... or 300-500 or 60-100 which makes sense because those figures are as broad as 5500-11000 or 9000 in the first twenty five plus weeks of the War and 10,000 more dead in the last three weeks. It looks like the only daily statistic he is exactly certain on is the thirty dead just supplied by the military and that it is a "number of times lower than Russia's.'"

Again, I'm not seeing how a Tank Platoon Commander who lost one killed and sixteen wounded in a battle of 5:1 ratio, combined with Illia Ponomarenko apparently stating 9000 died in the first 25+ weeks in the war and 10000 died in the last three weeks, combined with the above low confidence estimates from US Intelligence back in April, combined with numbers ranging from 30-500 KIA a day taken as little as a few days apart, and Zelensky only stating with confidence that there were 30 KIA a day, is a reliable basis for any sort of remotely accurate casualty estimation.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Do you guys think that naming one's eldest son Putin is cringe? For instance, purely hypothetically, Putin Anatolyevich Karlin?

Also, it's quite interesting; these are the titles that Vladimir Putin still has:

-Grand Duke of Crimea
-Prince of the Donbass
-Lord of Kherson
-Baron of Melitopol

He also used to be Earl of Izium but lost that title once Ukraine recently reconquered Izium from the Russians.
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
Do you guys think that naming one's eldest son Putin is cringe? For instance, purely hypothetically, Putin Anatolyevich Karlin?

Also, it's quite interesting; these are the titles that Vladimir Putin still has:

-Grand Duke of Crimea
-Prince of the Donbass
-Lord of Kherson
-Baron of Melitopol

He also used to be Earl of Izium but lost that title once Ukraine recently reconquered Izium from the Russians.

What?

You got a source for that? How are these titles passed down? :p
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
What?

You got a source for that? How are these titles passed down? :p

lol I just made these titles up. But they're as simple as Putin publicly declaring himself with these titles and that should be good enough lol. His rubber-stamp Duma should easily ratify any adoption of such titles by Putin. After his death (or the reconquest of these territories by Ukraine, whichever comes first lol), the Russian Duma could decide who will be the new owner of these titles if Russia will still control these territories by then lol. :D
 

Sailor.X

Cold War Veteran
Founder
Do you guys think that naming one's eldest son Putin is cringe? For instance, purely hypothetically, Putin Anatolyevich Karlin?

Also, it's quite interesting; these are the titles that Vladimir Putin still has:

-Grand Duke of Crimea
-Prince of the Donbass
-Lord of Kherson
-Baron of Melitopol

He also used to be Earl of Izium but lost that title once Ukraine recently reconquered Izium from the Russians.
Troll Putin by calling him Duke of Earl.:devilish:
 

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