History What are some of your most contraversial takes on history?

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm no friend to fascists. I was just reckoning it would be politically expedient for them, and end a lot of chaos in their ideology, if they cut ties with National Socialism.

Maybe, though I'm uncertain cutting ties with racist edgelords and genocidal swastika-wavers would be enough, anyway. And I know where you stand already (which is decently close to my own political sympathies), so I'm not worried about that. :)

Given what a mess globalism will leave behind, I think the general public will be very receptive of pre-20th century attitudes to the Nation State. It was always doomed.

Well... we'll see. Given the "dubious" trajectory we're on and how things have become more extreme on all sides, I hardly think we can rule backlash of some sort out. I just hope it's not as apocalyptic as Skall argues it'll be, even if something of an "Imperial" America that picks up where you Brits left off remains the most probable Great Hegemon of the West after the coming Crisis Period ends. :confused:
 
Poles are not a stupid nation, they think if maybe it was better together with Hitler to go to the Soviets and then betray him if he starts trying something. We learned our timeline, the cost we paid and the wounds we suffered continue to this day.

Hungary tried betraying Hitler in 1944 and paid dearly for this, especially most of Greater Hungary's Jewish population. Though Romania actually succeeded in this without any harm.
 
That as after the war started. Prior Hitler sought a military alliance with Poland that would put them on the level of Italy, that is an ally of equals. Hitler lamented the death of Pilsudski and viewed him as one of the great leaders of Europe and even held a funeral for him in Berlin:





Not really how you'd act if you viewed Poles as subhuman.

Do you think that, had Pilsudski lived, he'd have agreed to the Nazi alliance? On the one hand, he was skeptical of France's willingness to bail Poland out in the 1920s; on the flip side, though, the geopolitical situation for Poland in 1939 was more favorable, with Britain also being on its side and France remaining committed to its Polish ally.

In hindsight that is rather obvious. Millions of lives could have been saved. At the time though it is somewhat understandable given the nominal economics of the alliances that it would appear that Germany couldn't win. After all everyone thought the Allies had the best militaries on the planet not to mention the biggest as well as US support, so fighting instead of negotiating seemed like the better deal, especially as working with Germany would alienate Stalin and potentially turn Poland into the front lines in a Nazi-Soviet war that seemed in the offing. Plus then if the Allies turned on the Axis Poland would really be screwed.

Poland's gamble could have somewhat paid off had France not fallen in 1940. But even then, there was a risk of Soviet occupation of all of Poland, with eastern Poland already being guaranteed to be permanently lost, and there's no guarantee that Poland would have actually been as generously compensated with German territories as it was in real life. Plus, the Katyn massacre would have still occurred in this TL. :(
 
Do you think that, had Pilsudski lived, he'd have agreed to the Nazi alliance? On the one hand, he was skeptical of France's willingness to bail Poland out in the 1920s; on the flip side, though, the geopolitical situation for Poland in 1939 was more favorable, with Britain also being on its side and France remaining committed to its Polish ally.
Maybe? It would have gone against his policy, but he might have seen the writing on the wall better than his subordinates.
He remembered how bad the battle of Warsaw actually was, so he might well hope to spare Poland the destruction that would come from a war with Germany.
 
Maybe? It would have gone against his policy, but he might have seen the writing on the wall better than his subordinates.
He remembered how bad the battle of Warsaw actually was, so he might well hope to spare Poland the destruction that would come from a war with Germany.

Was the Battle of Warsaw actually that bad, though? It was a decisive victory for the Poles, was it not? Heck, it subsequently allowed the Poles to expand way to the east of the Curzon Line.
 
Another unpopular historical take: The Soviet Union was right to take western Ukraine from Poland in 1939. Not because the Soviet Union was more deserving of this territory, but rather because the Ukrainian nationalists who lived there ultimately helped formed the nucleus of a Ukrainian national consciousness in the rest of Ukraine. This is why, for instance, Ukraine did not fall back into Russia's orbit after it acquired its independence; had western Ukraine not been in Ukraine, then something such as Maidan would have been much more risky since the odds would have been much higher that a pro-Russian government could have simply been elected in the next elections, thus making Maidan completely pointless. Getting and having western Ukraine was necessary for Ukraine to march in a westward direction after its independence, even if it took a bit of time for Ukraine to get there.
 
Ukraine as a country is being forged right now is my unpopular opinion.

The state-forging process began on a huge scale in 2014 and rapidly accelerated this year. Even formerly pro-Russian politicians in Ukraine refuse to cooperate with the Russians:


But none of this would have ever actually been possible without the 2014 Maidan Revolution, which in turn likely would not have been possible without western Ukraine already being in Ukraine.
 
Hm, the fascism discussion seems to be pointing to an argument I've been hearing recently among the neo-reactionary people, that the myth of WWII (in the sense of "unifying narrative", like the myth of George Washington: so, discussing less about the actual truth (or falsehood) but the narrative emphasis: the Story of George Washington focuses on him willingly stepping down from power when he didn't have to, for example, rather than something else) basically completely neutered the right broadly, because a lot of good ideas got lumped in with fascism and the baby got thrown out with the bathwater.

Some of it was clearly communist subversion (communists obviously want to make everything they don't like fascism, and have done so since Fascism was a thing). There would have been some that was simple "Hitler drank water, so water is bad" logic: the Nazis had Socialist and some right wing polcies, especially early on when they had much more of an actual coalition of "everyone who isn't a communist" and thus had to do some policies to appease the church and old aristocratic people, and deliver on some campain promises to create a non-communist subverted country and beat down some of the degeneracy of the Weimar days.

I think the shortest summary of the argument I've heard is that the right wielding power has been effectively banned, leaving the only allowable right wing political position to be libertarianism, which amounts to mewing at the communists to please not crush us so hard. That at least seems to be the summary of the growing reactionary position, of the "Cathulu always swims left" position.

I'm not sure if I've actually seen the argument fully layed out though, but I do think I've been seeing it arround more.
 
Hm, the fascism discussion seems to be pointing to an argument I've been hearing recently among the neo-reactionary people, that the myth of WWII (in the sense of "unifying narrative", like the myth of George Washington: so, discussing less about the actual truth (or falsehood) but the narrative emphasis: the Story of George Washington focuses on him willingly stepping down from power when he didn't have to, for example, rather than something else) basically completely neutered the right broadly, because a lot of good ideas got lumped in with fascism and the baby got thrown out with the bathwater.

Some of it was clearly communist subversion (communists obviously want to make everything they don't like fascism, and have done so since Fascism was a thing). There would have been some that was simple "Hitler drank water, so water is bad" logic: the Nazis had Socialist and some right wing polcies, especially early on when they had much more of an actual coalition of "everyone who isn't a communist" and thus had to do some policies to appease the church and old aristocratic people, and deliver on some campain promises to create a non-communist subverted country and beat down some of the degeneracy of the Weimar days.

I think the shortest summary of the argument I've heard is that the right wielding power has been effectively banned, leaving the only allowable right wing political position to be libertarianism, which amounts to mewing at the communists to please not crush us so hard. That at least seems to be the summary of the growing reactionary position, of the "Cathulu always swims left" position.

I'm not sure if I've actually seen the argument fully layed out though, but I do think I've been seeing it arround more.

to be fair the world wars basically tramatized europe and what we see right now is the after math of their continant wide PTSD. All because some Serbian asshole wanted to change the world.
 
Here's another unpopular take:

Poland deserved to have an Axis collaborationist government during World War II since that would have likely been the only realistic way to save a larger percentage of Polish Jewry after the Fall of France (and without having the Axis win the war, of course). 90% of Poland's Jewish population was murdered in the Holocaust, but in Europe outside of Poland, around 50% of the Jewish population survived the Holocaust (with great variance by country, obviously). A Polish collaborationist Axis government could have perhaps somewhat reduced the Jewish Holocaust death toll in Poland.

Based on my own rough calculations, around 60% of global Ashkenazi Jewry survived the Holocaust. But this figure increases to 75% if one excludes Polish Jewry, 90% of whom were murdered in the Holocaust. This means that outside of Poland, 3 out of every 4 Ashkenazi Jews throughout the world were still alive after the end of World War II and the Holocaust, albeit in a sizable number of cases due to them living in places such as Britain and North America (though a lot of Soviet Jews were successfully evacuated to the Soviet interior in 1941-1942 as well, thus surviving the Holocaust that way).

Sorry,but no.
We are only nation which never cooperated with germans during WW2 becouse there was no group which supported it.You need modern Poland for find many traitors helping germans.
And we were genocided first for that.Eisetskommandos in 1939 hunted polish elites,not jews.

And jews in Poland cooperated withe germans/jewish police was gathering jews for death camps,not germans/ and it not helped them.
So,it would not worked even if you send Donald Tusk and his supporters for making german friendly goverment there.

P.S @Cherico ,WW1 started becouse of serbian asshole,but since everybody belived in short victorious war myth,it would happen anyway,only later.
Sad thing,in those times elites of every country was more or less retarded.And belived,that could start war and win quickly.
 
My controversial take on my part of history: the Philippines benefited from European colonialism, only in the fact that at least we wouldn’t have to be culturally tied to China, and at the very least we never became an extension of the entire Austronesian archipelago that embraced Islam. Of course, being ruled for 333 years by what is essentially a religious order screwed us in the long run, and was only successfully dragged into modernization by Americans, though at the cost of millions of Filipinos dead during the 1899-1902 Philippine-American war.
 
My controversial take on my part of history: the Philippines benefited from European colonialism, only in the fact that at least we wouldn’t have to be culturally tied to China, and at the very least we never became an extension of the entire Austronesian archipelago that embraced Islam. Of course, being ruled for 333 years by what is essentially a religious order screwed us in the long run, and was only successfully dragged into modernization by Americans, though at the cost of millions of Filipinos dead during the 1899-1902 Philippine-American war.

European colonization saved you from becoming Muslim. That's a huge plus all in and of itself.
 
My controversial take on my part of history: the Philippines benefited from European colonialism, only in the fact that at least we wouldn’t have to be culturally tied to China, and at the very least we never became an extension of the entire Austronesian archipelago that embraced Islam. Of course, being ruled for 333 years by what is essentially a religious order screwed us in the long run, and was only successfully dragged into modernization by Americans, though at the cost of millions of Filipinos dead during the 1899-1902 Philippine-American war.
Say what you will about the US control of the Philippines but three things are certian:

- the US didn't want to be a colonial power
- WWII delayed Philippine independence
- The US and the Philippines share an Independence day: July 4th. 1776 for the US, 1946 for the Philippines.
 
My controversial take on my part of history: the Philippines benefited from European colonialism, only in the fact that at least we wouldn’t have to be culturally tied to China, and at the very least we never became an extension of the entire Austronesian archipelago that embraced Islam. Of course, being ruled for 333 years by what is essentially a religious order screwed us in the long run, and was only successfully dragged into modernization by Americans, though at the cost of millions of Filipinos dead during the 1899-1902 Philippine-American war.
The relationship was a huge benefit for the US because what the Philippines taught Douglas MacArthur. They gave him and understanding and respect for East-Asian culture that was instrumental in the occupation of Japan.
 
The relationship was a huge benefit for the US because what the Philippines taught Douglas MacArthur. They gave him and understanding and respect for East-Asian culture that was instrumental in the occupation of Japan.

TBF, though, the Philippines are culturally distinct from other Asians since they are Christians whereas most other Asians are not.
 
Say what you will about the US control of the Philippines but three things are certian:

- the US didn't want to be a colonial power
- WWII delayed Philippine independence
- The US and the Philippines share an Independence day: July 4th. 1776 for the US, 1946 for the Philippines.
The US needed a literal Open Back Door access to trade with China. We do have two dates for Independence Day: June 12 (independence from Spain) and July 4 (independence from US)
The relationship was a huge benefit for the US because what the Philippines taught Douglas MacArthur. They gave him and understanding and respect for East-Asian culture that was instrumental in the occupation of Japan.
And of course, his dad was an officer during the American colonial period in the Philippines and might have been stationed there.
European colonization saved you from becoming Muslim. That's a huge plus all in and of itself.
For all Filipino Christians, not Filipino Muslims.
TBF, though, the Philippines are culturally distinct from other Asians since they are Christians whereas most other Asians are not.
True, but at the same time, we lament the fact that the Catholic Church had crippled our national development and often blame them for our self-perceived backwardness. Heck, the non-Christian Asian nations are outperforming us right now.
 
For all Filipino Christians, not Filipino Muslims.

True, but at the same time, we lament the fact that the Catholic Church had crippled our national development and often blame them for our self-perceived backwardness. Heck, the non-Christian Asian nations are outperforming us right now.

The overwhelming majority of Filipinos are Christians, no?

Those countries also perform much better on the PISA exam than the Philippines does. That counts for a lot. Much higher levels of human capital.
 
The US needed a literal Open Back Door access to trade with China. We do have two dates for Independence Day: June 12 (independence from Spain) and July 4 (independence from US)
The history of the July 4th Philippine Independece is a bit weird.

The US actually got decolinization right and it would have happened in 1944 if the Japanese didn't attack the US.

The other big territory the US got from the Spanish-American War was Puerto Rico. They seem to be quite happy with the "we're American, but not really American" arrangement we've got.
 
The history of the July 4th Philippine Independece is a bit weird.

The US actually got decolinization right and it would have happened in 1944 if the Japanese didn't attack the US.

The other big territory the US got from the Spanish-American War was Puerto Rico. They seem to be quite happy with the "we're American, but not really American" arrangement we've got.

Fun fact about Puerto Rico: Since 2005, two out of the three verified oldest US citizen men were Puerto Ricans. Specifically these two men:


 

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