Religion Does the New Testament teach that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament, Yahweh?

Scottty said:

I know that. I was referring to him thinking that the OT name for God applied only to God the Father. But it sounds like ATP interprets the Bible a bit like the JWs do, but then discards it in favor of "Tradition" - or what he thinks is church tradition anyway.

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Nope,JWs interpret Bible just like you - knew few citation,and forget others.
I simply revieving NT starting with Acts about what Apostles said about Jesus.And not hide anything.
Here,another:

Acts 17:26-32



26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’[a] As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’[b]

29 “Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill. 30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

32 When they heard about the resurrection of the dead, some of them sneered, but others said, “We want to hear you again on this subject.”

Paul,not Peter.He said to pagans about ONE GOD.Jesus is not even mentined by name,only as man appointed by God and raised from death.
So,for Paul here Jesus was just unusual human,who was Appointed raised by God.

Of course - i knew,that Jesus is God and part of Trinity - but not from Paul.

Scottty said:

Apparently ATP thinks that Jesus being human means He cannot also be Divine.

Notice how he just ignores the Bible passages that teach Jesus' Deity.

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Literally the idea that made Mohammed found Islam.

I'm gonna make it very simple for everyone. @ATP is a raging antisemite, his mental gymnastics are intended to deny the Jewish people any validity.

The One Char said:

I'm gonna make it very simple for everyone. @ATP is a raging antisemite, his mental gymnastics are intended to deny the Jewish people any validity.

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Sounds about right. He's not a Christian, then.

The One Char said:

I'm gonna make it very simple for everyone. @ATP is a raging antisemite, his mental gymnastics are intended to deny the Jewish people any validity.

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Oh, right... I think I understand now. Sort of...
But if hating on Teh Jooz is his thing, he could find piles of ammo for that in the Old Testament, if his ideology permitted him to look there.
And one of the things both the OT and the NT denounce the Israelites for is: not believing or obeying the word of the LORD, but instead following their own made-up traditions.
People like him are in danger of becoming what they hate.

Stargazer said:

Sounds about right. He's not a Christian, then.

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Maybe. My take is that ATP is not entirely clear in his own mind as to what he does or doesn't believe.

Scottty said:

Citation required.
Have you been reading The Watchtower or something?



I've answered this already.
And there is archeological evidence of Jericho being sacked at that time.



Peter was not infallible, and him not yet fully understanding Jesus' true nature yet is no disproof of Jesus' being God.
Hey - I thought you believed that Peter was the guy with the keys? Did your "The Church" later decide that Peter got things wrong?
Because that is what you are implying here...



Ooooh scholars! Give up the Faith entrusted to the saints by Jesus and the Apostles, little mortal humans, because the mighty scholars tell you to! /sarcasm




No, nothing in there contradicts Jesus being God.

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1.Nicene Creed.
2.Jerycho was sacked many times.
3.Not only Peter,but also Paul described Jesus as Messiah only.
4.Scholars which knew about stylistic,strucrural and grammar clues in old greek - hence they could found that 6 letters was forgeries from 90-130AD.
It is not case of Faith,but knowing ancient languages.
5.Yes,it is.If he wanted to say Jesus is God he would said so.
Instead,he made Jesus Righteous One.Which mean,human.

Here,another proof - this time from your beloved Paul.

Acts 18:5-6


5 When Silas and Timothy came from Macedonia, Paul devoted himself exclusively to preaching, testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Messiah. 6 But when they opposed Paul and became abusive, he shook out his clothes in protest and said to them, “Your blood be on your own heads! I am innocent of it. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.”

See- Paul teached that Jesus is Messiah,not God.Again.

Stargazer said:

He's got this weird mishmash of Arian and Marcionite interpretation of Scripture, a modernist rejection of the validity, consistency, and authority of Scripture, a hardcore papist devotion to "tradition" combined with flagrant ignorance of what that tradition actually teaches, and ignorance of the history of Christian belief in general. It's an absolute incoherent mess, a real JW would have a field day with him.

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Nope,my unlightened friend.
I simply take one citate from NT after another where Apostles talk about Jesus - and so far,none of them described Jesus as God.
That is all
Here,another :

Acts 18:12-13


12 While Gallio was proconsul of Achaia, the Jews of Corinth made a united attack on Paul and brought him to the place of judgment. 13 “This man,” they charged, “is persuading the people to worship God in ways contrary to the law.”

See- Jews accused Paul of wrong kind of worshipping God,not claiming that Jesus is God,becouse that would be blasphemy.

ATP said:

1.Nicene Creed.
2.Jerycho was sacked many times.
3.Not only Peter,but also Paul described Jesus as Messiah only.
4.Scholars which knew about stylistic,strucrural and grammar clues in old greek - hence they could found that 6 letters was forgeries from 90-130AD.
It is not case of Faith,but knowing ancient languages.

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Which scholars, and which 6 letters? If you won't be specific, you are hand-waving.

ATP said:

5.Yes,it is.If he wanted to say Jesus is God he would said so.

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And he did say so.
Colossians 2:9 for example.

Scottty said:

I think ATP is just trolling us. There's no way anyone could really think those passages deny Jesus' Deity. There's just no way to get that out of those texts.

And of course he just ignores the passages that do plainly teach that Jesus is God. When Jesus said "before Abraham was, I am" - everyone there at the time got it, that He was claiming the Name of God for Himself. But maybe people like ATP aren't allowed to read the Gospel of John.

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Nope,Just proving that you could not claim that Jesus is God from NT alone.

And i read it - and yes,Catholics church use that with Tradition as proof that Jesus is God.
That is why i belive that Jesus is God.

But,if i do not have Tradition? Jesus said,that he was before Abraham,that is all.He could be God,but also angel.
He do not say i was before Abraham as a God.



Here another citation:

Acts 18:27-28


27 When Apollos wanted to go to Achaia, the brothers and sisters encouraged him and wrote to the disciples there to welcome him. When he arrived, he was a great help to those who by grace had believed. 28 For he vigorously refuted his Jewish opponents in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Messiah.

See - Apollos,new convert,also teached that Jesus is Messiah,just like Paul.

P.S do not fear,i would answer all question,but - one at time.

ATP said:

Nope,Just proving that you could not claim that Jesus is God from NT alone.

And i read it - and yes,Catholics church use that with Tradition as proof that Jesus is God.
That is why i belive that Jesus is God.

But,if i do not have Tradition? Jesus said,that he was before Abraham,that is all.He could be God,but also angel.
He do not say i was before Abraham as a God.

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"I Am" is the Name of God from Exodus chapter 3

13 Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?”
14 God said to Moses, “I am who I am.[c] This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I am has sent me to you.’”
15 God also said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The Lord,[d] the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’

ATP said:

Nope,my unlightened friend.
I simply take one citate from NT after another where Apostles talk about Jesus - and so far,none of them described Jesus as God.
That is all
Here,another :

Acts 18:12-13


12 While Gallio was proconsul of Achaia, the Jews of Corinth made a united attack on Paul and brought him to the place of judgment. 13 “This man,” they charged, “is persuading the people to worship God in ways contrary to the law.”

See- Jews accused Paul of wrong kind of worshipping God,not claiming that Jesus is God,becouse that would be blasphemy.

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You already responded to that post.

Notice that ATP has quietly changed his ground. First it was "no, the Bible doesn't teach that Jesus is God, only Muh Tradition does".
Now it's "um yes those Bible passages do say that He's God - but we would only know it said that because Tradition".

Stargazer said:

Oh cool, another example of Peter referring to Jesus as Lord, "κυριου". That is, of Peter calling Jesus "Yahweh". Another example that the New Testament teaches that Jesus is Yahweh, the God of the Old Testament. Are you sure you know English? Is there some miscommunication, do you really mean that the New Testament does teach that Jesus is Yahweh? Because that's what you're proving.



Or he's just that dumb.

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1.You really read it? becouse Peter say about two different BEINGS here - Lord Jesus in which he belive,and God who send Holy Spirit.
It could imply that Jesus is God - but,not say it.

2.Belive in whatever you like my friend,but deliver proof that Jesus said that He is God,or Apostles say so.

Here :

Acts 19:4-5


4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Again,Lord,not God.

Scottty said:

But since he seems to love the Book of Acts...


So who, according to the Apostle Peter, poured forth the Holy Spirit at Pentecost?
Jesus.

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1.Nope,just started with first book after Evangelions,becouse Jesus never named HIMSELF as GOD.
2.Imply,that Jesus is God - but still do not say so.

Here:

Acts 19:13-15



13 Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, “In the name of the Jesus whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out.” 14 Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. 15 One day the evil spirit answered them, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know about, but who are you?”

See - neither those jews,nor demon which they try exorcise named Jesus as God.

Scottty said:

Normally, it's the Protestants arguing that Roman Catholic teaching contradicts the Scriptures, and the Papists refusing to see the plain meaning of the Bible verses being quoted.
I've never before seen one of them openly say "we don't care what the Bible says, we have Tradition". Normally they'll insist that the Bible be interpreted to fit with their dogmas, or spew squid-ink and dodge the topic, or start making threats, or just ragequit from the debate.

Example: Jesus telling His disciples "do not call anyone father, for One is your Father in heaven". Just watch the blast doors of Orwellian "crimestop" slam down in the Papist's mind! And the refusal to see the logical application of that text.

Now here we've got us a "muh Tradition" type who is himself arguing that his denomination's teaching is unbiblical! And we're the ones trying to get him to see that on this point at least, it isn't.
This is so upside-down. But at least one thing I recognize - a Papist pretending the Bible says things it doesn't, and refusing to see what it does say.

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Nice hatespeech,please deliver more.
But,you do not undarstandt again what are you saing.Or rather accuse me of your own crimes.
Becouse you sti could not deliver citation that Jesus named HIMSELF as GOD, and at the same time pretend to not see citations where Jesus gave power to Peter.

Here,another :

Acts 20:19-21


19 I served the Lord with great humility and with tears and in the midst of severe testing by the plots of my Jewish opponents. 20 You know that I have not hesitated to preach anything that would be helpful to you but have taught you publicly and from house to house. 21 I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

Again,Jesus is not God here.
Not problem for me.but for you - certainly.

ATP said:

1.You really read it? becouse Peter say about two different BEINGS here - Lord Jesus in which he belive,and God who send Holy Spirit.
It could imply that Jesus is God - but,not say it.

2.Belive in whatever you like my friend,but deliver proof that Jesus said that He is God,or Apostles say so.

Here :

Acts 19:4-5


4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Again,Lord,not God.

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You just completely skipped the post where I went into detail about the use of the word "Κύριος" in Greek, how it is used to mean "Yahweh", and how the very Scriptures you're quoting apply the word to Jesus. You aren't debating, you're just repeating the same assertions over and over again. I already showed how the Gospel of John, Titus, 2 Peter, and Hebrews - all included in the New Testament - clearly identify Jesus as God, and more specifically as the God Yahweh of the Old Testament.

Jesus is God, Yahweh, or Κύριος, the New Testament teaches that he is.

ATP said:

Nice hatespeech,please deliver more.

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Careful what you ask for.
But if you think that's "hatespeech", you have lived a sheltered life.

ATP said:

But,you do not undarstandt again what are you saing.Or rather accuse me of your own crimes.

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Meaning that you do not understand it?

ATP said:

Becouse you sti could not deliver citation that Jesus named HIMSELF as GOD,

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I have cited a few verses already - you just refuse to accept them.

ATP said:

and at the same time pretend to not see citations where Jesus gave power to Peter.

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Whatever. Apparently you don't think that Peter believed that Jesus is God. So why do you then?

ATP said:

Here,another :

Acts 20:19-21


19 I served the Lord with great humility and with tears and in the midst of severe testing by the plots of my Jewish opponents. 20 You know that I have not hesitated to preach anything that would be helpful to you but have taught you publicly and from house to house. 21 I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

Again,Jesus is not God here.
Not problem for me.but for you - certainly.

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Where do you get Jesus not being God from there?
I see "our Lord Jesus" there. Why don't you?

I think we can safely conclude that when @ATP refers to "tradition", he really means whatever he decides is valid as tradition, that he is his own pope.

Stargazer said:

You just completely skipped the post where I went into detail about the use of the word "Κύριος" in Greek, how it is used to mean "Yahweh", and how the very Scriptures you're quoting apply the word to Jesus. You aren't debating, you're just repeating the same assertions over and over again. I already showed how the Gospel of John, Titus, 2 Peter, and Hebrews - all included in the New Testament - clearly identify Jesus as God, and more specifically as the God Yahweh of the Old Testament.

Jesus is God, Yahweh, or Κύριος, the New Testament teaches that he is.

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Yeah, you know I really don't want to find myself somehow on ATP's side here but I feel I need to point out, that's not the only way Κύριος is used in the Bible. It is used as a respectful form of masculine address somewhat analogous to how we'd use "Sir," not just as an address for Yahweh. That said it is used for Yahweh frequently as well so it's not definitive.

It's used as a form of address to a human Magistrate in Matthew 27:63.
The famous Samaritan woman at the well addresses Jesus this way, well before she even realizes he's a prophet, much less the Messiah.
Greeks use the term as a polite address for Philip in John 12:21.
A Roman Officer addresses Paul with the term at Acts 16:30.

More details on the various forms of Kurios and how it's used in many scriptures here:

Bear Ribs said:

Yeah, you know I really don't want to find myself somehow on ATP's side here but I feel I need to point out, that's not the only way Κύριος is used in the Bible. It is used as a respectful form of masculine address somewhat analogous to how we'd use "Sir," not just as an address for Yahweh. That said it is used for Yahweh frequently as well so it's not definitive.

It's used as a form of address to a human Magistrate in Matthew 27:63.
The famous Samaritan woman at the well addresses Jesus this way, well before she even realizes he's a prophet, much less the Messiah.
Greeks use the term as a polite address for Philip in John 12:21.
A Roman Officer addresses Paul with the term at Acts 16:30.

More details on the various forms of Kurios and how it's used in many scriptures here:

Strong's Greek: 2962. κύριος (kurios) -- lord, master

biblehub.com

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Fair, it doesn't always mean "Yahweh". However, some examples of its use that ATP quoted appear to use the word in a way a Jew would only apply to Yahweh, such as Peter referring to Jesus as "Lord of all" in Acts 10:36.

But I don't think ATP understands this nuance either way, as he just completely evaded discussion of the word and its use. And referring to Jesus as "Lord" certainly isn't contradictory of believing Jesus to be God, as he tried suggesting at one point.