Armchair General's DonbAss Derailed Discussion Thread (Topics Include History, Traps, and the Ongoing Slavic Civil War plus much much more)

Well, first, no they did not already effectively own the whole Luhansk and Donetsk oblasts:
For the cost spent? The clay in question isn't worth it.

Second, the water supply issue is a serious problem for Crimea and extremely costly to fix (evidenced by the fact that Russia has yet to come up with a satisfactory solution despite its critical strategic importance [edit: unless you count invading Ukraine, I suppose]).

Third, sanctions could probably be lifted but Ukraine won't want to buy peace for five years until Russia decides to go for another bite. At the price of, what, more than 10% of the country?—Ukraine will want to buy peace permanently.
And these are largely immaterial points.

For domestic political reasons, Russia has to win. There is basically no conceivable situation where Russia can fail to "win" and handle the domestic political fallout.

So the starting point for any potential peace deal has to be "Putin and Russia can credibly spin this as a win worth the cost paid to achieve it".

Ukraine turning into a generation of insurgency hell? An acceptable cost for Russia if it can point to some tangible gains.

The West is left in the unenviable position of not being able to win. To get a win, NATO has to intervene militarily. And that is WW3 with all of the consequences of that fiasco.

It doesn't really matter how much in terms of small arms the west pours into Ukraine, all that does is make the outcome bloodier for Russia. It does nothing to change the underlying fundamentals of the conflict.

Russia won't touch a NATO member, but short of that? The borders will end up wherever Russia wants them. Which means that if the West wants those borders to be somewhere short of the current border between them and Ukraine then they have to give Putin something.

Fourth, the river isn't worth the cost of holding down that much territory that will see them as tyrants rather than as liberators or even as "new boss same as the old boss". I think it's delusional to believe that border could be really secure against insurgents. As for "letting Ukrainians leave" ... lol.
The only things of worth in Ukraine from the Russian point of view are the geographical features that block armies. So yes, the Dnieper is one of the single most important features in the entire nation.

The Dnieper isn't some small stream, it's a wide, deep, fast moving, river with relatively few bridges across it. There are less than twenty of them along the rivers entire length. That part of Ukraine has the Sea to the South, the River to the west, Russia to the East, and Belarus (Russia) to the North. Locking down the borders against effective smuggling is viable and not that expensive or difficult. Can it be perfect? No. Can it be good enough to make keeping a sustained insurgency active and supplied effectively impossible? Yes.

Once those borders are secure, Russia can park basically an entire army on the territory and get to work suppressing/integrating the populace.

It's West of the Dnieper that a Ukrainian insurgency really becomes hell.

Lastly, I did after all say "played off as a win". It doesn't have to be actually worth it for Russia to convince enough people that it was worth it that the regime doesn't get overthrown.

And Ukraine joining NATO would let the west play it off as their own win even as Russia walks away with everything its propaganda said it wanted, with lighter sanctions than when it started the trouble.
Ukraine won't be allowed to join NATO, whatever happens. Even if Russia pulled out, if it was announced then it would be WW3 the next day because Russia would flat out invade Ukraine and dare the US to honor Article 5 under explicit, public, threat of nuking New York and DC.

I really don't think you get how much Ukraine in NATO is a redline for Russia. Not for Putin, not for the government, but for Russia as a collective whole. It is very much a "we will nuke you if you do this" redline.

This war in Ukraine isn't Putin looking for an "out". While the exact severity of the sanctions might be a surprise (and I wouldn't bet on that), no level of sanctions are enough to alter Russian thinking on this invasion.

So what comes next? What does the West do after Russia has grabbed off however much of Ukraine it wants and held "free and fair" elections to vote in a puppet government to legitimize the whole thing. The West recognizes a government in exile perhaps? A government that holds none of its claimed territory is not a government, it's a joke. I guarantee you that China and India won't recognize the exiled government.

Russia still has all of those commodities, it is still a nuclear power, it is still sitting right there on the Eastern edge of Europe, it still has one of the world's most powerful militaries.

It's not just some minor irrelevant nation that can be ignored for years or the like.

And it is also self sufficient in its critical areas. China can be destroyed in a month by stopping oil flows from the ME to China (which anyone with a blue water navy can do with impunity). Its economy can be crippled overnight by the simple expedient of refusing to allow its goods to be exported. Its population can be faced with starvation in relatively short order.

Russia doesn't share any of those weaknesses.

So Russia takes Ukraine, and what happens six months? A year? down the road.

I mean US domestic politics. Biden has staked out a strong position on stopping Russia from seizing Ukraine. Russia has eight months before election day to have achieved a "victory" sufficiently unambiguous that Biden is seen as having failed.

Eight months where US gas prices are through the roof. Eight months where Republicans are running on the claim that the reason that Russia can get away with all of this is the Democrats green agenda (vote Republican and we will bring down gas prices). Eight months where Europe deals with the political upheavals of a resurgent Russian threat.

And then two years after that, you have the Presidential election. Where the Democrats have Ukraine hanging around their neck along with all the other fall out from it.

There is still a very large vein of support in the US for going fairly isolationist. Tapping into that and running on a platform of "The Democrats want to bring back the Cold War and risk nuclear annihilation to protect Europe" could easily happen. Especially if Europe stops standing firm.
 
There is still a very large vein of support in the US for going fairly isolationist. Tapping into that and running on a platform of "The Democrats want to bring back the Cold War and risk nuclear annihilation to protect Europe" could easily happen. Especially if Europe stops standing firm.
Unfortunately, the Republican establishment isn't interested in doing that; as their main complaint with the Biden administration seems to be that they haven't fully brought back the Cold War yet.
 
Unfortunately, the Republican establishment isn't interested in doing that; as their main complaint with the Biden administration seems to be that they haven't fully brought back the Cold War yet.
RINOs and neocucks need to be defenstrated for sanity to return, most of those in the USA that seem to ree for war were opposed to Trump, they need to be hammered on inflation and CRT, instead.
"All politics is local" and "It is the economy, stupid" need to become the slogans of the day.
Liz Chaney already went after Trump Republicans as IIRC the "Pro-Putin wing of the GOP".
 
Dude, what world are you living in? Everybody were giving Ukraine 72 hours max before the invasion began. Russian eventual victory is not really in doubt (they have a lot of crap to throw at their opponents, Ukraine doesn't, unless the West gets itself more heavily involved), the point is that their performance up till now has been an embarrassment, they are being humiliated in front of the entire world for their extremely crappy military performance.

In the propaganda being produced by the West, sure, but in reality not at all. No one was claiming Ukraine would fall in 72 hours before the invasion; JCS as the invasion began was predicting Kiev would fall in 72-96 hours, but that's not the same as the country at all. Ukraine is the largest country in Europe and has the largest Army, if you exclude Russia itself; acting like its a failure by Russia to conquer it all in less than two weeks when it took the United States a full month to take Iraq in 2003 is the only thing laughable here.

Did Rusia stumble in the opening days? Without question, but it was not because of a lack of capabilities but because of planning; they made the intentional decision of limiting strikes and withholding key abilities precisely because they wanted to limit civilian and even Ukrainian military losses. This was shown most obviously in the complete lack of targeting of military barracks, for example. Now, however, the gloves are off and its showing how wrong this analysis of "crappy military performance" is:
  1. All but two roads into Kyiv have been cut, with the Ukrainians themselves now admitting the Russians are positioning themselves to complete the encirclement. There is a reason we are seeing a storm of news articles about the Western Powers already turning their focus to insurgency and government in exile.
  2. As part of the above, Sumy and Chernihiv have been encircled with an indeterminate amount of Ukrainian military. Food supplies have already been exhausted in Sumy and the noose is tightening.
  3. Mariupol, with a garrison possibly as strong as 7,000 has been encircled and now the Russians have secured the outer suburbs.
  4. Kharkov appears to be surrounded, and the Russians are pushing fast on Izyum to cut the LOCs into the Donbass. The JTO represents the largest grouping of Ukrainian forces, at somewhere between 45,000 to possibly as high as 75,000 personnel. In the next three to five days, it will either have to retreat in the open under murderous Russian fire or it will be encircled and destroyed. Everything east of the Dnieper will collapse regardless of which occurs, but if it is the former then the Russians now have a free hand to advance on Lviv and take Odessa.
 
Unfortunately, the Republican establishment isn't interested in doing that; as their main complaint with the Biden administration seems to be that they haven't fully brought back the Cold War yet.
Sure, but that's today. You have to be all "I stand with Ukraine!", "Russia EVIL!!!!!" right now. Six or eight months from now? Much less two and a half years from now?

Suddenly its all the Democrats fault.

Biden has publicly staked out a position that Russia can't be allowed to grab Ukrainian clay and must be stopped. He is President and he did this in his State of the Union address.

Because he took such a maximalist position, anything less than complete victory is a defeat and will be spun that way. And yet Biden is fundamentally incapable of actually stopping Russia from doing what it wants in Ukraine. At least unless he is willing to fight WW3 over it.

The American people "stand with Ukraine" today, ten days into things and when the consequences have barely even started to bite. Where do they stand after sustained gas prices at least as high as they are right now? When food prices have increased? When inflation is eating any savings that they have and wage growth remains anemic? When they don't have a victory they can point to to justify the cost?

Now include Europe and how they end up acting. Europe can't cut off Russian oil & natural gas, trying to do so within that time period is simply economic suicide. Macron doesn't have an easy election coming up, you think he wins if he oversees a European economic collapse?

What does Germany do when put in a position of publicly having to cut a deal with Russia or having to suffer an economic catastrophe? If they cut a deal then they undercut the entire idea of NATO and the EU, if they refuse then they have massive economic problems.

I mean you think that Russia is going to keep selling Europe energy when it gets paid in a currency that it can't use? It doesn't matter if dollars or Euros are transferred to some bank account that has Russia's name on it. Russia currently has hundreds of billions sitting in bank accounts just like that right now, and the US and Europe won't let Russia use those funds.

Currency is only as valuable as what it can be exchanged for. And right now, Russia can't exchange its dollars and Euros for anything. Until that changes, Russia won't be likely to keep accepting payment in those currencies.

So what happens to domestic US politics if Germany publicly breaks with the Russian sanctions to save its own economy? If Biden approves then the Republicans will crucify the democrats for that come election day and rightly wonder what the point of the suffering is when massive carve outs are being made that make the sanctions pointless. If Biden doesn't approve then NATO is effectively dead because Germany has decided to break with NATO and EU policy to actively aid Russia in avoiding US sanctions placed because Russia invaded Ukraine.

You think that, in such a situation, the American voter is going to support NATO?
 
This post this post right here is what is wrong with the Russian Support side. This attitude should have been left in the dust bind of the 20th Century and Colonialism. Not the 21st Century. Ukraine is a Sovereign Nation. It had and has the right to chart it's own coarse. No country has the right to tell another you can't ally with this group or do this or that when they aren't fucking with anyone and aren't harming anyone. Putin is evil and what goes around comes around. He will reap what he has sown over the years.

Is this why we are threatening to sanction India for trading with Russia and have lambasted Brazil repeatedly over their diplomacy over Russia? I'll ignore the irony of someone with "Cold War veteran" in bio bringing up 21st Century "values" that go out the door as needed for the side championing them.

As for reaping what is sown, it appears that will be "Kyiv" becoming Kiev again, as it should be and will be soon enough.
 
For the cost spent? The clay in question isn't worth it.
That was not the point I was refuting: "territory that Russia already effectively owned"
[...] For domestic political reasons, Russia has to win. There is basically no conceivable situation where Russia can fail to "win" and handle the domestic political fallout. [...]
OK, but I am not convinced by your assertion that only taking half+ of Ukraine as buffer zone can be sold to the Russian people as a win for the purpose of securing the survival of the current regime. That their propaganda goal of "coming to the rescue of ethnic Russians threatened with genocide by Nazified Ukrainians", securing the logistical survivability of Crimea, and undoing the sanctions currently destroying the ruble's international standing as well as most of the sanctions that have been hurting Russia (somewhat) since 2014—that all of these are not enough for the state media propaganda apparatus to convince Russians to not overthrow Putin in the wake of a costly invasion of Ukraine.
The West is left in the unenviable position of not being able to win. To get a win, NATO has to intervene militarily. And that is WW3 with all of the consequences of that fiasco. [...]
What are you defining as what the world would have to look like in the aftermath for the west to either actually "win" or be able to spin the situation as a "win"?
The Dnieper isn't some small stream, it's a wide, deep, fast moving, river with relatively few bridges across it. There are less than twenty of them along the rivers entire length. That part of Ukraine has the Sea to the South, the River to the west, Russia to the East, and Belarus (Russia) to the North. Locking down the borders against effective smuggling is viable and not that expensive or difficult. Can it be perfect? No. Can it be good enough to make keeping a sustained insurgency active and supplied effectively impossible? Yes.
I am not convinced. And bridges are not the only way to get stuff across a river in quantities sufficient to sustain an insurgency.
Once those borders are secure, Russia can park basically an entire army on the territory and get to work suppressing/integrating the populace.
I don't think Russia can tank the costs of this as easily as you seem to think.
It's West of the Dnieper that a Ukrainian insurgency really becomes hell.
I think it will be hell before that, but I agree it would be considerably worse hell on the western side.
[...] I really don't think you get how much Ukraine in NATO is a redline for Russia. Not for Putin, not for the government, but for Russia as a collective whole. It is very much a "we will nuke you if you do this" redline.
I am not convinced, so to the extent that you are certain of your position you're right that I "don't get" (i.e. agree with) your conclusion.
This war in Ukraine isn't Putin looking for an "out". While the exact severity of the sanctions might be a surprise (and I wouldn't bet on that), no level of sanctions are enough to alter Russian thinking on this invasion.
I agree that no level of sanctions will stop the war. I think the sanctions, or the prospect of their being lifted (both new and old ones), could affect the negotiated concessions that Ukraine has to give to Russia to end the war.
So what comes next? What does the West do after Russia has grabbed off however much of Ukraine it wants and held "free and fair" elections to vote in a puppet government to legitimize the whole thing. The West recognizes a government in exile perhaps? A government that holds none of its claimed territory is not a government, it's a joke. I guarantee you that China and India won't recognize the exiled government.
But don't you take the position that Russia won't seize all of Ukraine? So it will be a government half in exile that still has territory it holds, and more that Russia holds.
Russia still has all of those commodities, it is still a nuclear power, it is still sitting right there on the Eastern edge of Europe, it still has one of the world's most powerful militaries.

It's not just some minor irrelevant nation that can be ignored for years or the like.

And it is also self sufficient in its critical areas. China can be destroyed in a month [...] Russia doesn't share any of those weaknesses.
I certainly agree that Russia cannot be ignored. But as for self sufficiency, what is it doing with all that oil and gas money if it is self sufficient?

A do think it's true that Russia's military does and will continue to qualify as "one of the world's most powerful", but I think the position it occupies on the perceived shortlist has taken quite a hit, and its force projection will be in a much worse state than that if it's occupied with occupying eastern Ukraine.
So Russia takes Ukraine, and what happens six months? A year? down the road.

I mean US domestic politics. Biden has staked out a strong position on stopping Russia from seizing Ukraine. Russia has eight months before election day to have achieved a "victory" sufficiently unambiguous that Biden is seen as having failed.

Eight months where US gas prices are through the roof. Eight months where Republicans are running on the claim that the reason that Russia can get away with all of this is the Democrats green agenda (vote Republican and we will bring down gas prices). Eight months where Europe deals with the political upheavals of a resurgent Russian threat.

And then two years after that, you have the Presidential election. Where the Democrats have Ukraine hanging around their neck along with all the other fall out from it.

There is still a very large vein of support in the US for going fairly isolationist. Tapping into that and running on a platform of "The Democrats want to bring back the Cold War and risk nuclear annihilation to protect Europe" could easily happen. Especially if Europe stops standing firm.
I admit I haven't listened to his SOTU speech yet, but I am not aware that Biden's position was "We will prevent Russia from conquering Ukraine." More like "Russia conquering Ukraine is a big no-no and we will punish Russia severely if it tries to do any such thing." As such, Russia conquering Ukraine is not per se an absolute failure, although it is certainly not a success and will certainly be fodder for political opposition.

"Through the roof" is a relative term. I think gas prices are comparable to where they were a decade ago. We will see how much worse it gets. Predicting the midterms and the presidential election after that is I think beyond the scope of this discussion even if it's somewhat relevant, and will depend on a lot more than just what is happening in Ukraine.

I haven't followed gas prices closely, but the first analysis I looked at indicates that prices are expected to moderately worsen through summer, but be better than they are now by Election Day. U.S. Gas Prices Are Skyrocketing—How Much Worse Will It Get?

I think it's very unlikely that Europe folds in the face of "a resurgent Russian threat".
 
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Sure, but that's today. You have to be all "I stand with Ukraine!", "Russia EVIL!!!!!" right now. Six or eight months from now? Much less two and a half years from now?

Suddenly its all the Democrats fault.

Biden has publicly staked out a position that Russia can't be allowed to grab Ukrainian clay and must be stopped. He is President and he did this in his State of the Union address.

Because he took such a maximalist position, anything less than complete victory is a defeat and will be spun that way. And yet Biden is fundamentally incapable of actually stopping Russia from doing what it wants in Ukraine. At least unless he is willing to fight WW3 over it.

The American people "stand with Ukraine" today, ten days into things and when the consequences have barely even started to bite. Where do they stand after sustained gas prices at least as high as they are right now? When food prices have increased? When inflation is eating any savings that they have and wage growth remains anemic? When they don't have a victory they can point to to justify the cost?

Now include Europe and how they end up acting. Europe can't cut off Russian oil & natural gas, trying to do so within that time period is simply economic suicide. Macron doesn't have an easy election coming up, you think he wins if he oversees a European economic collapse?

What does Germany do when put in a position of publicly having to cut a deal with Russia or having to suffer an economic catastrophe? If they cut a deal then they undercut the entire idea of NATO and the EU, if they refuse then they have massive economic problems.

I mean you think that Russia is going to keep selling Europe energy when it gets paid in a currency that it can't use? It doesn't matter if dollars or Euros are transferred to some bank account that has Russia's name on it. Russia currently has hundreds of billions sitting in bank accounts just like that right now, and the US and Europe won't let Russia use those funds.

Currency is only as valuable as what it can be exchanged for. And right now, Russia can't exchange its dollars and Euros for anything. Until that changes, Russia won't be likely to keep accepting payment in those currencies.

So what happens to domestic US politics if Germany publicly breaks with the Russian sanctions to save its own economy? If Biden approves then the Republicans will crucify the democrats for that come election day and rightly wonder what the point of the suffering is when massive carve outs are being made that make the sanctions pointless. If Biden doesn't approve then NATO is effectively dead because Germany has decided to break with NATO and EU policy to actively aid Russia in avoiding US sanctions placed because Russia invaded Ukraine.

You think that, in such a situation, the American voter is going to support NATO?
Fair enough; though I expect the RINOs and neocons will still end up throwing their lot in with Biden, and insist that anyone who doesn't stand with the sitting president in a time of crisis is a traitor. Which ultimately may be for the best; as it'll give the MAGA types a chance to discredit them alongside the Biden administration, and fully take over the Republican party.

Also, I personally wouldn't shed a tear if NATO were to be dismantled as a result of all this. I've been in favor of doing that for years.
 
OK, but I am not convinced by your assertion that only taking half+ of Ukraine as buffer zone can be sold to the Russian people as a win for the purpose of securing the survival of the current regime. That their propaganda goal of "coming to the rescue of ethnic Russians threatened with genocide by Nazified Ukrainians", securing the logistical survivability of Crimea, and undoing the sanctions currently destroying the ruble's international standing as well as most of the sanctions that have been hurting Russia (somewhat) since 2014—that all of these are not enough for the state media propaganda apparatus to convince Russians to not overthrow Putin in the wake of a costly invasion of Ukraine.

It's a lot easier to sell taking half of Ukraine and having the west have to publicly swallow it as a win than it is to sell "we stopped those Nazis from being Nazi's" as a win.

What are you defining as what the world would have to look like in the aftermath for the west to either actually "win" or be able to spin the situation as a "win"?
Basically what the West has been defining as a win already; getting Russia to stop invading Ukraine and go back home.

You don't have any Western leaders standing up and saying "Yeah, Russia is going to take all of Ukraine and the best we can hope for is a really brutal insurgency that makes Afghanistan look like a pleasant afternoon. No, we can't really do anything to change that unless we are willing to fight WW3 and watch our cities get nuked.". In private? Sure. Everyone is willing to fight to the last Ukrainian. But the public positions are all of the "Russia IS THE EVIL!!! IT MUST BE STOPPED!!!!" variety. Despite the fact that said outcome is effectively impossible.

I am not convinced. And bridges are not the only way to get stuff across a river in quantities sufficient to sustain an insurgency.
No, but bridges plus drones that keep the entire river under 24/7 surveillance and take pot shots at anyone doing anything suspicious really hamper any kind of large scale resupply.

I don't think Russia can tank the costs of this as easily as you seem to think.
Easily is defined as "not crippling the Russian economy". It will be bloody, it will be brutal, it will destroy a lot of military equipment. The thing is, for counter insurgency you can throw conscript and contract forces at it using obsolete soviet crap from the depot. Nation building is hard, especially when you insist on building a democracy with all the needed institutions to support it. Just suppressing an insurgency and occupying a secured territory? That is a LOT easier. It will be bloody as all hell on both sides, but Russia is perfectly willing to be bloody.

I am not convinced, so to the extent that you are certain of your position you're right that I "don't get" (i.e. agree with) your conclusion.
It's been pretty explicit Russian policy since the USSR collapsed. Putin has explicitly threatened to go nuclear over this. Every Russian official at every level has been consistently and emphatically clear that Ukraine in NATO is an existential threat and will be treated as such, even if that means WW3.

I agree that no level of sanctions will stop the war. I think the sanctions, or the prospect of their being lifted (both new and old ones), could affect the negotiated concessions that Ukraine has to give to Russia to end the war.
Sure, but what is the West willing to offer? I mean any agreement will have to include written, public, statements from the Western powers (including the US) that 1) Ukraine will not be allowed to join NATO, 2) that Western military equipment will not be stationed in Ukraine, 3) that no mutual defense pacts with Ukraine will be made, 4) that the west will not sell, transfer, or otherwise make available to Ukraine any military equipment. Those aren't terms that its politically possible for Biden to accept publicly.

For Russia, this war isn't about economics at all. The economic consequences of it are a distinctly secondary or even tertiary concern. So if the West wants Russia to stop short of swallowing all of Ukraine, they have to offer concessions that Russia actually wants. And those concessions are basically impossible for the West to give because of their own domestic politics.

But don't you take the position that Russia won't seize all of Ukraine? So it will be a government half in exile that still has territory it holds, and more that Russia holds.
My position is that Russia would be willing to settle for half, if the west is willing to meet its terms for a peace. Seeing as I don't see the West willing to make those concessions, I expect Russia to at least nominally secure all of Ukraine, force the election of a puppet government, have that puppet government legitimize everything and basically sign everything over to Russia, and then most of the world to accept that state of affairs over the next few years.

Nations are not willing to go to war to stop Russia and are not willing to publicly concede anything that looks like capitulation to Russia (for very understandable reasons).

I certainly agree that Russia cannot be ignored. But as for self sufficiency, what is it doing with all that oil and gas money if it is self sufficient?
By and large, luxuries.

"Through the roof" is a relative term. I think gas prices are comparable to where they were a decade ago. We will see how much worse it gets. Predicting the midterms and the presidential election after that is I think beyond the scope of this discussion even if it's somewhat relevant, and will depend on a lot more than just what is happening in Ukraine.

I haven't followed gas prices closely, but the first analysis I looked at indicates that prices are expected to moderately worsen through summer, but be better than they are now by Election Day. U.S. Gas Prices Are Skyrocketing—How Much Worse Will It Get?
High enough that they are noticeable and hitting everyone. Especially when the Republicans make it a consistent point to remind everyone how low they were under Trump (conveniently ignoring the role COVID played in that) and how anti-gas the Democrats are.

I think it's very unlikely that Europe folds in the face of "a resurgent Russian threat".
It's what they tend to do historically.
 
It's a lot easier to sell taking half of Ukraine and having the west have to publicly swallow it as a win than it is to sell "we stopped those Nazis from being Nazi's" as a win.
But see, you had said that Putin needed to take half of Ukraine to save his regime; now it's just that half of Ukraine is easier to sell as a win than lesser spoils. Meaning he could accept less if taking half of Ukraine was sufficiently costly compared to other possible concessions.

Similarly, the west would like for Russia to withdraw to the pre-2014 border, but that is not required IMO for the outcome to be seen as a win.
 
But see, you had said that Putin needed to take half of Ukraine to save his regime; now it's just that half of Ukraine is easier to sell as a win than lesser spoils. Meaning he could accept less if taking half of Ukraine was sufficiently costly compared to other possible concessions.

Similarly, the west would like for Russia to withdraw to the pre-2014 border, but that is not required IMO for the outcome to be seen as a win.
No, my position is that Russia needs to "win" with "win" being defined as something that Russia can reasonably sell to both its general public and its management caste (the people a few levels below Putin in the government) as a "win" that justifies the costs spent to achieve it.

"We got to keep this territory that was already de facto ours." isn't a "win".

"We took half the country." is a lot easier to call a "win". Especially when paired with "and got the US to publicly repudiate ever making Ukraine a member of NATO or arming it".
 
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We need more "...of Kiev" memes in this thread.
 
If you ignore the fact that American/NATO missiles in Ukraine could destroy Moscow in four minutes.

Is there some sort of time vortex in the baltic states or Warsaw that means a missiles from there takes ages to hit Moscow, but Ukraine could launch normally?

Seem to recall we too threatened WWIII over Soviet missiles in Cuba for the same reason, no?

And in the ensuing 60 years, things have changed. Most notably, the deployment of SSBNs, which allow second strike capability regardless of what happens on land. We still probably wouldn't have been thrilled with Russian missiles in Cuba, but it wouldn't have been an existential crisis the way the OG Cuban missile crisis was.
 
Is this why we are threatening to sanction India for trading with Russia and have lambasted Brazil repeatedly over their diplomacy over Russia? I'll ignore the irony of someone with "Cold War veteran" in bio bringing up 21st Century "values" that go out the door as needed for the side championing them.

As for reaping what is sown, it appears that will be "Kyiv" becoming Kiev again, as it should be and will be soon enough.
The last time I checked we aren't landing 150,000 troops in Brazil. And we are not claiming Brazil is not a real country. Russia is in the wrong and what they are doing is late 19th and Early 20th Century BS.
 


Bill is calling it.



More confirmation Putin has this in the bag and American Hegemony is crumbling due to the Woke Idiots in charge.



Well folks this is the hammer phase. Whoever isn't on those buses will be in a free fire zone.



Goodbye EU economy, next time don't listen to Greta who has zero knowledge if industrial processes or the fact that solar and wind farms due more environmental destruction than simply burning coal.



A sign of Russian control in the south to bring this boy out.

Worst comes to Worst, the USA can expand drilling in the Gulf of Mexico/Alaska/Various national parks and expand fracking, and they can always threaten MBS with democracy promotion.

But Europe, Europe is the place that is really fucked.

I understand how some US posters, like Zwhatshisname can want that, but the Poles, Balts, UK and Eurocracy fucked us all!
 
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