• The Sietch will be brought offline for HPG systems maintenance tomorrow (Thursday, 2 May 2024). Please remain calm and do not start any interstellar wars while ComStar is busy. May the Peace of Blake be with you. Precentor Dune

Why Men and Women Should Stop Hooking Up.

Shipmaster Sane

You have been weighed
That is not at all what I stated. . .
It is however the obvious logical end of what you said.

You literally said that you disagree with the premise that people are more satisfied with sex after abstinence because they dont have any experience and would be "fumbling".

I disagree with the premise that abstinence until marriage produces greater satisfaction with sex, considering that it generally means that the only people having sex are fumbling around with *no experience*.
 

Hlaalu Agent

Nerevar going to let you down
Founder
That is not at all what I stated. . .

Ship may be acting like ship tends to do, but I think he captured the spirit of what you meant and then was able to use this captured spirit to make a pithy statement. Or as Ship said, the logical end.

And I think you forget that there are ways of educating people, and getting them prepared without hands on experience. The Hindus have a marvelous manual for it, to give one such example.
 

Fleiur

Well-known member
I disagree with the premise that abstinence until marriage produces greater satisfaction with sex, considering that it generally means that the only people having sex are fumbling around with *no experience*.

Edit: Also, the study cited is pretty much just a poll, and I'd argue that a subject as inherently subjective as *quality of sex* is never going to be accurately measured by a poll.
So why do the people who didn't wait report less satisfaction in their marriage?
If it's purely subjective, then rates of self-reported happiness and sexual satisfaction should be similar.
 

Hlaalu Agent

Nerevar going to let you down
Founder
So why do the people who didn't wait report less satisfaction in their marriage?
If it's purely subjective, then rates of self-reported happiness and sexual satisfaction should be similar.

I think the better question to ask him, is that do you think people will be more satisfied or less satisfied if they have something to compare it to? A benchmark?

Would someone with experience constantly be comparing it to their past experience, and thus able to find more fault with it?
 

Hlaalu Agent

Nerevar going to let you down
Founder
Do you think someone would really do that? Just go on the internet and tell lies?

When you put it that way it does sound absurd. What possible reason could someone have to go online, and lie before countless million people. I definitely cannot see any possible motivation! No sirree.
 

Fleiur

Well-known member
I think the better question to ask him, is that do you think people will be more satisfied or less satisfied if they have something to compare it to? A benchmark?

Would someone with experience constantly be comparing it to their past experience, and thus able to find more fault with it?
Yes. It will. If I did it without waiting for my husband, it'd have left an impact on me for sure, and I would see it differently because I would compare. It's satisfying to me and my husband because we are figuring it out together. No comparison to any previous encounters, just our experiences together and the memories that we have with each other.
 

Hlaalu Agent

Nerevar going to let you down
Founder
Yes. It will. If I did it without waiting for my husband, it'd have left an impact on me for sure, and I would see it differently because I would compare. It's satisfying to me and my husband because we are figuring it out together. No comparison to any previous encounters, just our experiences together and the memories that we have with each other.

The way you put it does sound romantic, and also very well, sweet. And I think it elevates the act to something more when such meaning is attached to it, it becomes less about lust and more about love.
 

JasonSanjo

Your Overlord and Jester
One thing to keep in mind - perhaps more so in regards to hooking up and relationships than the institution of marriage - is how pair bonding works on a neurological level.

Pair bonding is a (fairly) well-understood phenomenon in terms of human neurology. Primarily through sexual intercourse (but also through other actions, such as affectionate physical touching) both male and female brains release certain chemicals - primarily dopamine and vasopressin in the case of men, and dopamine and oxytocin in the case of women.

Dopamine is the "reward" or "feel-good" chemical. It's what makes people enjoy sex so much, and is the cause of the "afterglow" effect many people report after successful intercourse. In people with a penchant for hormonal addiction (e.g., compulsive gamblers, sex addicts) it can lead to addiction. Simple enough.

Vasopressin and oxytocin, meanwhile, are the primary chemicals that create the "pair bonding" effect - what you might call long-term love and affection, and a desire to stay with a particular partner. However, they do so in rather different ways, which means the whole pair bonding phenomenon works out differently for men and women.

The basic function is the same - vasopressin and oxytocin both bond with certain receptors in the brain which, when stimulated, create the pair bonding effect. However, oxytocin creates a "strong" bond, whereas vasopressin creates a "weak" bond. The receptors are the same, however, so the "maximum" pair bonding remains the same between sexes - it is simply getting to the point of maximum pair bonding that works out differently. Long story short, men require more acts of sexual intercourse with a particular partner in order to begin, and "max out", pair bonding when compared to women.

So what does this all mean? Well, when taken in conjunction with empirical research done on people's pair bonding ability over time and with multiple partners, some interesting facts come to light. First, I'll start with the stuff that's the same for both men and women.

The pair bonding receptors are not unlimited in either number or function. In other words, humans are neurologically limited in terms of overall pair bonding ability. That is, how many times they are able to pair bond, and how strong those bonds are, though the exact limits vary from individual to individual. Researchers have studied this and come up with the following numbers (again, there being some variation between individuals):

At somewhere around 3-5 pair bondings, the pair bonding ability starts to noticeably degrade. That is, each subsequent pair bonding is weaker than the one previous.

At somewhere around 10-12 pair bondings, the pair bonding ability becomes unnoticeable to the point of being virtually non-existent. At this stage, pair bondings are effectively no longer possible, though previous pair bondings remain, if somewhat weakened with time when lacking regular sexual intercourse with the bonded partner.

(Regular sexual intercourse with a bonded partner keeps the bond strong and keeps it from degrading.)

Now, here's where it gets different for men and women:

Because female brains release oxytocin, and male brains release vasopressin, men and women form pair bondings at different rates.

For women: 1-2 acts of sexual intercourse with one partner is normally enough to begin pair bonding.

For men: Anywhere between 2 and 5 acts of sexual intercourse with one partner are required to begin pair bonding.

So what does this difference mean in practice? Well, in simple terms, it means that men's pair bonding ability is less detrimentally affected by hooking up with many different partners when compared to women's, as long as the men only hook up once, or perhaps twice, with the same partner. For women, however, more often than not a single act of sexual intercourse is enough to begin pair bonding. This, in turn, means that women will reach the "limit" of their pair bonding ability much more quickly than men when they both engage in hook-up culture.

In short, modern hook-up culture is far more detrimental, on a neurological and emotional level, for women than it is for men. By the time the typical woman has moved on from casual flings and decides she wants to settle down and have a family, more often than not she has long-since lost the ability to pair bond, making any long-term relationship one of emotional and sexual dissatisfaction, which in turn leads to infidelity and/or the ending of the relationship.

This phenomenon goes a long way to explaining why there are so many single mothers these days, doesn't it? Of course, the state effectively enabling it via social welfare programs and forced child support doesn't exactly help.

Now, in theory - given how other neural receptors have been shown to work - it should be possible for prolonged abstinence from sexual intercourse to (very slowly) restore the pair bonding ability. However, to the best of my knowledge, no empirical studies have been carried out on the subject, given both a general lack of parties interested in funding it and researchers' difficulty in finding enough people who've had 10+ pair bondings and were also willing to spend years without engaging in sexual intercourse (feel free to direct me to such studies if you know of any).

Really makes you think, doesn't it?
 

Culsu

Agent of the Central Plasma
Founder
How many sexually partners until you "know" you're with the right one? How much trial and error?
Since the pursuit of happiness is a uniquely individual matter there is no generalized answer to this question.
Sometimes you have to live with things that cause stress.
Yeah, so it's nice that stress can be reduced by having sex with a person you love and are attuned to. ;)
Having your arm torn off causes stress and makes life difficult too.
Yes, and it's about as relevant to the question of a sexually fulfilling relationship - you know, the topic of this thread rather than your amusingly passive-agressive slight shifting of goalposts and putting things in my mouth - as the proverbial sack of rice falling over in China.
Imagine thinking that marriage is worthless if you're not getting the sex you want.
Oh, getting into a marriage if it's not fulfilling certainly seems like a massively stupid move. Why would you make a life-long committment to someone if you know it's not going to make you (and in turn, your spouse) happy?
You know your spouse could be rendered incapable of sex physically, yes? Well, I suppose it'd be time to kick that apartment contractee to the curb then.
In the 1 in a 100.000 chance that happens there are tons of avenues that can be explored first: physical and psychological therapy, porn use, prostitutes (if that's financially viable for the person), open marriage arrangements, and probably tons more. But yes, if none of these were viable or my spouse would not be willing to sanction/live with a solution to that issue: divorce would of course be an option to be put on the table. I don't intend to spend the second half of my life in celibate.
 

Shipmaster Sane

You have been weighed
Yeah, so it's nice that stress can be reduced by having sex with a person you love and are attuned to.
Life is about more than having fun.

Yes, and it's about as relevant to the question of a sexually fulfilling relationship - you know, the topic of this thread rather than your amusingly passive-agressive slight shifting of goalposts and putting things in my mouth - as the proverbial sack of rice falling over in China.
No, it isnt. Your point fundamentally presupposes that the fact that you could end up with an unsatisfying partner is somehow this untenable, intolerable condition, which seems insufferably petty when life is often an exercise of coping with much, much worse.


Basically, you're acting like a spoiled child.


Oh, getting into a marriage if it's not fulfilling certainly seems like a massively stupid move. Why would you make a life-long committment to someone if you know it's not going to make you (and in turn, your spouse) happy?
Imagine thinking that you couldnt be happy without sex.

In the 1 in a 100.000 chance that happens there are tons of avenues that can be explored first: physical and psychological therapy, porn use, prostitutes (if that's financially viable for the person), open marriage arrangements, and probably tons more.
Prostitution and cuckoldry, thats really what you find acceptable, dear god.

You could just suck it up and be a big boy, men have dealt with far worse since time began. But no, I'm sure rampant degeneracy to dull the pain of existence will solve all your problems.


But yes, if none of these were viable or my spouse would not be willing to sanction/live with a solution to that issue: divorce would of course be an option to be put on the table. I don't intend to spend the second half of my life in celibate.
Which is the picture of moral cowardice. I can only wonder what you'd do if you faced something actually horrible you had no way to run away from.
 

Culsu

Agent of the Central Plasma
Founder
Life is about more than having fun.
Yeah, we get it Sane, we get it. You're the master of circular arguments. Or, not actually adressing arguments. But you're good at both.
No, it isnt. Your point fundamentally presupposes that the fact that you could end up with an unsatisfying partner is somehow this untenable, intolerable condition, which seems insufferably petty when life is often an exercise of coping with much, much worse.
Yes, it is, because I can do something about the former, but might not be able to do something about the latter. Wars might happen, catastrophes might. These are things I cannot change. A shitty relationship is something I can change. I can work on it, and barring success there, I can end it.
Basically, you're acting like a spoiled child.
Because I don't unquestioningly sign away the rest of my life to a relationship?
Imagine thinking that you couldnt be happy without sex.
Not in a marriage, no. That's no foundation for me to spend the rest of a monogamous life with someone.
Prostitution and cuckoldry, thats really what you find acceptable, dear god.
In that very extreme scenario you so kindly constructed to give your point at least some depth, yes.
You could just suck it up and be a big boy, men have dealt with far worse since time began. But no, I'm sure rampant degeneracy to dull the pain of existence will solve all your problems.
The usual solution to that problem "since time began" was to get a mistress.
Which is the picture of moral cowardice.
Being forthright in my expectations and demands is moral cowardice? Interesting.
I can only wonder what you'd do if you faced something actually horrible you had no way to run away from.
See, and that's the crux of this whole argument: it's about something that people can affect. You constantly conjuring scenarios that fall outside this is, at best, amusing, but basically just clogs up the thread with pointless bullshit.
 

Arch Dornan

Oh, lovely. They've sent me a mo-ron.
That makes you wonder if it is actually true then, and isn't some lurid fabrication to farm likes or something.
I look up high school stories in amazement at how wild they were.

Grooming teachers, stupid kids selling drugs, sharing nudes, doing the dirty with someone, sexual harassment, faking high school shootings to skip school it's somewhere out there.

One mentioned seeing a lawyer visiting to find out someone being the father and mother had to give up their child for adoption.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
I look up high school stories in amazement at how wild they were.

Grooming teachers, stupid kids selling drugs, sharing nudes, doing the dirty with someone, sexual harassment, faking high school shootings to skip school it's somewhere out there.

One mentioned seeing a lawyer visiting to find out someone being the father and mother had to give up their child for adoption.
A girl had a kid my freshman year of highschool, and one of my closest friends was taken advantage of and pressured into se with her bf by holding her love for him over her head
 

Arch Dornan

Oh, lovely. They've sent me a mo-ron.
A girl had a kid my freshman year of highschool, and one of my closest friends was taken advantage of and pressured into se with her bf by holding her love for him over her head
Yes you mentioned it before. Terrible to happen in your teens.

One of the most shocking I heard of is the son of a yakuza abducting school girls with buddies of his for gang raping. Last victim was fucked up.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
Yes you mentioned it before. Terrible to happen in your teens.

One of the most shocking I heard of is the son of a yakuza abducting school girls with buddies of his for gang raping. Last victim was fucked up.
My friend hides it from me.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top