Africa Why the West Betrayed Rhodesia

Captain X

Well-known member
Osaul
Honestly it still boggles my mind that the US and other NATO nations effectively sided with communists against Rhodesia, especially considering that the kind of regimes they supported in Central and South America at the same time. But Sargon takes a stab at explaining it, or rather he summarizes an article someone else wrote on the subject.

 
Betray? What was there to obey? Rhodesia decided to break from the West, so they should suffer the consequences with some dignity.
 
...The exact opposite, in fact. Rhodesia lagged behind, so the home front turned on them. For standing by the system the home front set up.
And now it opposed it. So they had a duty to obey commands, if they were really so loyal to the home front. But they didn't, so they should spare us the whining.
 
And now it opposed it. So they had a duty to obey commands, if they were really so loyal to the home front. But they didn't, so they should spare us the whining.
For nearly forty years prior to decolonization Rhodesia was self-governing, and the decolonization process was just "go take care of yourself" with nothing done to make any changes to that self-governance. There was no such order when such an order meant anything, and yet once there was no meaning to such an order it was being insisted upon at considerable expense.
 
And now it opposed it. So they had a duty to obey commands, if they were really so loyal to the home front. But they didn't, so they should spare us the whining.

You should spare us your whining. :rolleyes:


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But seriously, the universal ailment of the modern age is that it was born of utopian, "progressive" ideas, which could never withstand the test of reality. The whole notion that the world -- and Man, too -- can be shaped and re-shaped to suit one's ideology stems from this terrible origin. It's caused the excesses of the French revolution, it's caused the deranged swerves that philosophy has taken, it's caused the insanely childish world-view of progressive liberals... and it's caused the certainly no-less-mad extremes of socialism, communism, nazism and similar ideologies. All rely on a fundamentally utopian view: WE can re-make it all in OUR image!

And anyone who tries to look at the world as it is, rather than how the utopians want it to be will be branded a heretic. A traitor to the cult of utopia.

Rhodesia was too sane to be anything but wicked in the eyes of modernity.
 
For nearly forty years prior to decolonization Rhodesia was self-governing, and the decolonization process was just "go take care of yourself" with nothing done to make any changes to that self-governance. There was no such order when such an order meant anything, and yet once there was no meaning to such an order it was being insisted upon at considerable expense.
Then why complain about how they only kept the old system because they were ordered to?

God, I hate the whining of defeated nationalists. It's all crying and weeping about shadowy cabals stabbing your brave soldiers in the back, when it's always just the old nation making one idiotic decision after another out of a delusion that they're above facing consequences.

Face it. Rhodesia died, and failed, to a bunch of brain dead guerrillas that could only beat it because the elites were arrogant idiots.
 
Then why complain about how they only kept the old system because they were ordered to?
...The people in charge were mostly born after self-government. Their entire life was under the old system of the vast majority of affairs of state being handled locally. The new system being pushed was "burn all of that down and bend over for the demonstrably uneducated masses you've spent generations incrementally dragging up". Do tell how many African countries that worked for.

God, I hate the whining of defeated nationalists.
How do you have a stable industrial country in overt denial of any attempt at educating the population in how to work in one? Because that's the point at issue. And I'd say that the people pushing for revolution by strict racial interests back in Britain were far more racist than the lot who went for a pure wealth qualifier that saw the slowly growing African middle class on the same level as any white man.

For fuck's sake, most of their soldiers were Africans!

It's all crying and weeping about shadowy cabals stabbing your brave soldiers in the back, when it's always just the old nation making one idiotic decision after another out of a delusion that they're above facing consequences.
How the fuck is the British Parliament writing the angry letters and blockading ports to embargo oil a shadowy cabal?
 
You should spare us your whining. :rolleyes:


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But seriously, the universal ailment of the modern age is that it was born of utopian, "progressive" ideas, which could never withstand the test of reality. The whole notion that the world -- and Man, too -- can be shaped and re-shaped to suit one's ideology stems from this terrible origin. It's caused the excesses of the French revolution, it's caused the deranged swerves that philosophy has taken, it's caused the insanely childish world-view of progressive liberals... and it's caused the certainly no-less-mad extremes of socialism, communism, nazism and similar ideologies. All rely on a fundamentally utopian view: WE can re-make it all in OUR image!

And anyone who tries to look at the world as it is, rather than how the utopians want it to be will be branded a heretic. A traitor to the cult of utopia.

Rhodesia was too sane to be anything but wicked in the eyes of modernity.

Reality always wins in the end.
 
Reality always wins in the end.
Indeed.But there is difference between country ruled by normal capitalists who actually care about society and country ruled by grandkids of revolutionists who survived purges,and do not care about anybody but their needs.And behave like parody of real capitalist from commie propaganda.

I prefer first,unfortunatelly live in second.And see how countries which avoided commies after 1945 are ruled by them now.It is not funny.In commie times we could hope that normal America would save us one day,now we have only God and HIS Holy Mother.

But,maybe it is for better.maybe we should never count on another people.
 
Black Rhodesians were effectively second class citizens in their own country, who had to follow a different set of laws to the whites. Rules for thee but not for me? Profoundly un-British and I can see why that didn’t sit well with a good few of them. Apartheid always creates more problems than it is worth in the long run.

And still, the overthrow proved to be a dreadful mistake because Mugabe’s Zimbabwe was many orders of magnitude worse. Ah, aren’t revolutions wonderful? So I view Rhodesia in much the same way I view Tsarist Russia or Royal France: very messy systems, capable of positive change, that were overthrown and replaced by far worse.
 
Black Rhodesians were effectively second class citizens in their own country, who had to follow a different set of laws to the whites. Rules for thee but not for me? Profoundly un-British and I can see why that didn’t sit well with a good few of them. Apartheid always creates more problems than it is worth in the long run.

And still, the overthrow proved to be a dreadful mistake because Mugabe’s Zimbabwe was many orders of magnitude worse. Ah, aren’t revolutions wonderful? So I view Rhodesia in much the same way I view Tsarist Russia or Royal France: very messy systems, capable of positive change, that were overthrown and replaced by far worse.
Except Rhodesia was explicitly not an apartheid state if I’m understanding it correctly. It did not discriminate on racial lines but rather along the lines of wealth and education.

There was a thriving and growing native middle class slowly joining the anglos in rulership of the country. Chances are, if Rhodesia had survived to modern times, most of the ruling class would be those same Anglicized blacks.

And what does the country have to show for throwing off the “yoke” of the white man? Where once stood a prosperous nation slowly integrating its people together, stands yet another third world shithole with many living on the brink of starvation and suffering through horrible depravation.

Truly a victory for the downtrodden.*

*The sarcasm isn’t so much directed at you specifically Sovereign. Just frustration with the situation in general.
 
Except Rhodesia was explicitly not an apartheid state if I’m understanding it correctly. It did not discriminate on racial lines but rather along the lines of wealth and education.

There was a thriving and growing native middle class slowly joining the anglos in rulership of the country. Chances are, if Rhodesia had survived to modern times, most of the ruling class would be those same Anglicized blacks.
Rhodesian segregation was apparently a good deal more informal than what you’d have seen in South Africa, but it was there. Black Rhodesians were infantilised quite badly and seen as servants (as I understand, there were laws against them having sex with white people), with the voting system suspiciously weighting the vote in favour of whites. Blacks weren’t allowed to live in white areas, or go to white schools, and didn’t have as much in the way of “workers rights.” It must be emphasised that armed rebellions on that scale don’t come out of nowhere.

And what does the country have to show for throwing off the “yoke” of the white man? Where once stood a prosperous nation slowly integrating its people together, stands yet another third world shithole with many living on the brink of starvation and suffering through horrible depravation.

Truly a victory for the downtrodden.*

*The sarcasm isn’t so much directed at you specifically Sovereign. Just frustration with the situation in general.
Funnily enough, a lot of modern Zimbwabeans agree with you. Yeah, can’t say they were happy about the political arrangement back then (for obvious reasons, let’s not mince words. I’ve heard tales of the police liberally using beatings) but they do believe things were far better run due to the absence of blood crazed Marxist lunatics in the halls of power. Many blacks in the Rhodesian Army certainly felt “better the devil you know than the devil you don’t” and bugger me were they proven right.

My position on the matter is that Rhodesia had massive flaws it didn’t effectively address and that lead to its downfall, much like Royal France and Tsarist Russia. What replaced it however was hilariously worse, and perhaps things might have been better if the system hadn’t collapsed.
 
There was no pressing strategic need that would override the public outcry supporting the racist smith regime.
And in hindsight we know that this and other heavy concessions to the "antiracists" by western countries, like extensive regulations, affirmative action programs and the like, still have not sated the demands and support to anti-western communist movements by the specific part of the public involved in such outcries.

The West has taken a wrong route in dealing with the race issue since the 60's, which is the route of being played like a fiddle by commies. The mainstream liberals and conservatives thought this will be the end of the issue if they give such concessions to minorities and the left, and to give them their credit, if it was true, there would be a strong argument that the deal was worthwhile. But it turned out that was not the end of their demands, just the beginning, which makes it a terrible deal that should be terminated with severe penalties sometime around the 80's as the other side was visibly not playing along by that time. At that point they should be just told that they are getting nothing and they can fuck off to their communist country of choice if they don't like it and see how much affirmative action and set-asides they get there.
You should spare us your whining. :rolleyes:


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But seriously, the universal ailment of the modern age is that it was born of utopian, "progressive" ideas, which could never withstand the test of reality. The whole notion that the world -- and Man, too -- can be shaped and re-shaped to suit one's ideology stems from this terrible origin. It's caused the excesses of the French revolution, it's caused the deranged swerves that philosophy has taken, it's caused the insanely childish world-view of progressive liberals... and it's caused the certainly no-less-mad extremes of socialism, communism, nazism and similar ideologies. All rely on a fundamentally utopian view: WE can re-make it all in OUR image!

And anyone who tries to look at the world as it is, rather than how the utopians want it to be will be branded a heretic. A traitor to the cult of utopia.

Rhodesia was too sane to be anything but wicked in the eyes of modernity.
Oh but the western establishment and talking head class are absolutely capable of shutting the hell up and having decent enough relations with rather illiberal, non-utopian countries if they want to, like Egypt, Vietnam, Saudi Arabia, not to mention the visible even on the grandest scenes of international politics "Russia normalization" faction, Iran appeasers and many China simps.

It's just that in some cases they don't want to.
In this case the specific gripe with apartheid South Africa and Rhodesia had those people and the left in particular uproar as the race issue is something of extreme interest (for exploitation) - after all, look in hindsight, both of those countries are constantly ruled by far left since the "fixing" of the race issue with no end in sight, what a fucking surprise.
 

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