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What screams "the author didn't think of the implications"?

JagerIV

Well-known member
Yeah, Iron blooded Orphans seems to play at "true mechs" being something of a hold over from more advanced times, and since true Mobile Suits are so superior to everything else, battle mostly comes down to who wins the mobile suit battle, because non-mobile suits are relatively helpless to mobile suits. And due to the "lost techology" aspect, certain mobile suits are vastly superior to other mobile suits, and you don't necesarily have a lot of the best, or any way to make more, so ones top 1-2 mobile suits being the other's top couple mobile suits is enough to decide a particular engagement.

So, it makes more or less sense if you accept the logic of the setting as given. The general problem is generally that mechs being vastly superior to everything else out of universe is hard to justify, so the in universe justification of how things work of "only a mech can really beat another mech" doesn't seem reasonable.
 

Typhonis

Well-known member
Especially given the armor disparity you face of mech vs tank. A tank is an armored box, one with a turret has a smaller box on top meaning you only have 11 faces to armor. A humanoid mech on the other hand will have a lot more faces to cover because you not only have the head and body to armor but the arms and legs. They add in at most 24 more faces to armor.

Thus a tank with 40 tons of armor is going to be better protected than a mech with the same weight since the tanks will be angled and thicker.
 

JagerIV

Well-known member
What's that?

Also, has anybody ever explained how John Wick's golden assassin coins work? Like one coin is enough for a lot of stuff

Is there change?

Someone mentioned it earlier in thread. I assumed the coins were just literally gold coins. Outside the system or something like that, inflation protection? Only tracable by the right kind of people?
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
What's an example of Fasaeconomics?
Let's see, for starters inflation. It doesn't exist. Okay, so a C-Bill isn't fiat, it represents a millisecond of interstellar communications, but still it's odd that it keeps the exact same value (10-11 dollars US) throughout several hundred years. And nothing changes in price. The first Extralight Fusion Engine ever made cost 4 times what a normal engine did. Five hundred years later when the technology is well developed and found across thousands of worlds, one of the thousands of XL engines coming off a mass-production line has the exact same price as the first handcrafted experimental one.

The biggest one is interstellar shipping. Simply put the entire Inner Sphere, something like 2,000 planets, have less shipping than Michigan. By that I mean both the military and civilian fleets of all the major nations, combined, are probably less total tonnage than the various barges hauling goods along the Great Lakes. It's absurd how little there is and yet it's enough that they have ships dedicated to stuff like being luxury yachts (Princess Class) and cruise ships (Monarch Class). Somehow there's enough shipping left over for dirtbag mercenary companies to afford transport all over the inner sphere to go fight each other. Now you might be thinking that this just means most planets are self sufficient, but we're flat out told most of them are agrarian worlds growing food and utterly dependent on imports for everything else.

On top of that when you do the math, the ships aren't capable of paying for themselves. They cost so much to make and it costs so much to jump that they can't possibly haul enough cargo to pay for their own operation. With even the slightest logical economics applied to the rules for how much ships cost vs. what they can haul, it's clear all ships in the Inner Sphere are losing money with every jump.

Pay scales and dollar amounts also make very little sense. Let's go back to that dirtbag mercenary company. They're poor as church mice so they have a single lance of 'mechs, we'll assume a standard lance of 1 light, 2 medium, and 1 heavy and using late succession war tech. I rolled up a random lance of common 'mechs in MegaMek:

1 Wasp 1A 1,881,900 C-Bills
1 Wolverine 6R 4,302,244 C-bills
1 Shadowhawk 2H 4,424,600 C-bills
1 Warhammer 6R 5,306,244 C-bills

So here we've got four fairly basic 'mechs and they add up to 15,914,988 C-bills worth of stuff, or over 150 million dollars in real money. This is for some dirtbag poor guys remember, a typical mercenary group. Add in their cheap-ass Leopard DropShip for a cool 171 million more C-Bills if you like, not all mercs have it but the dirt poor group you play in the Battletech Videogame have one.

Piloting these immense war machines are, of course, Mechwarriors, the Elite of the Elite, the finest soldiers in the universe. So how much do they make for risking such a stupendous amount of hardware and being so amazingly skilled? A MechWarrior's base wages are 13,000 C-Bills a year. Yeah.

And their expected contract pay reflects said wages, somehow nobody pays anything but dirt-poor wages to these mercs so you have groups like the team in the aforementioned Battletech game barely having eating money and worrying about making ends meet while flying around with equipment worth more than the Gross National Product of many first-world nations.

It gets even worse once you dig deeper into the rules. For instance weapon pods can be switched between omnimechs, but how much the pod costs depends on the weight of the 'mech it's in so the inflexible C-Bill value of an item changes when you put it off one 'mech and install it on another.
 

Hlaalu Agent

Nerevar going to let you down
Founder
Gold is measured in troy ounces, like most precious metals, and most gold counts countain one troy ounce of gold. Which is currently worth $1881 per ounce. A comfortable amount, but everything Wick buys with them costs far, far more.

It could be a fiat criminal currency, and that there is value added to the coins by it being vouched for by the crime lords or something...
 

Battlegrinder

Someday we will win, no matter what it takes.
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Obozny
It could be a fiat criminal currency, and that there is value added to the coins by it being vouched for by the crime lords or something...

Whatever value they have isn't monetary, because what they buy isn't equivalent. They're just a token to represent something else, like favors or influence or something.
 

Hlaalu Agent

Nerevar going to let you down
Founder
Whatever value they have isn't monetary, because what they buy isn't equivalent. They're just a token to represent something else, like favors or influence or something.

Possibly. Or they didn't think it through, as per the thread title, and did it because having assassins paid in dubloons sounded cool.
 

Shipmaster Sane

You have been weighed
ts self explanatory.

I said that you are pushing this idea that all DnD campaigns is military ones with military mercenary companies when not all are like that and some are just random hobbos working together to get rich and traveling from city to city or town for said jobs.

Your position is all military mercenaries part of mercenary companies. That is all.
Well if that's what you're saying then you're misrepresenting me for some reason. Now, the vast majority of Adventurers are, in essence, mercenaries, and their personalities tend to reflect a life of brutal combat and lethal encounters. I cant speak for the stupidity of players cringily playing out wish fulfillment scenarios they've seen in anime, but Adventurers besides the players do in fact exist in the games, and we can make judgements based on what we see of them, which is that the adventurers that tend to survive tend to operate like a magical SWAT team.


I think you are too harsh on this. I can see them making sense a bit for a guild that does not force its members to do a job if they don't want to.
Then what the fuck is the point of the guild then and how would it not be instantly out competed by guilds who do their fucking job coherently and competently?

Fantasy Bounty Boards are the cringiest weebshit trope and need to be burned in a bonfire. No one would use them for anything immediate, anything progressive, they'd literally be what they're called: bounty boards, used to post actual bounties for criminals on the run, and they'd be handled through the official authorities, or else anyone could just put one up for anything. No one would ever post a bounty for something that was an immediate threat, because you'd need an immediate response. No one would go through a lumbering bureaucracy to solve a small scale problem either.


I never said that they are uber accurate worlds that make sense. Lots of fantasy whether anime or not is retarded for one reason or another. Stop being so pretentious.
Grow a sense of taste.

She doesn't look like a kid but whatever.
She doesn't look like a woman either.

Ok. And? Again, I never said it was logical but just that I can see people doing it cause they don't have the reality of the situation or think that they can win or that its worth it cause glory and money and rising above their station.
As I said, anyone being that stupid or that inured to danger would be rare, whereas Goblin Slayer encounters a dozen literal children being sent into a meat grinder in one week and he flat out says that it's very common.


Not if one goes by tvtropes where they talk about how the earlier work had the stereotypical barely their armor.

Hell tvtropes example:
I'm depressed that you dont realize that TV tropes is a shitty place to find examples.


excerpts_20100712.jpg
To expand on this, Bedouin people who live in the desert wear clothes. Arab armies wore armor despite it being hot. The above pic is bullshit.
First, that picture is from Dark Sun, a specifically primitive and extremely impoverished environment where the average technological level is like the stone age.

Second, their crudely scraped together armor and shield is still a hundred times superior to a chainmail bikini or what the little girl cleric is wearing.
 

LifeisTiresome

Well-known member
Well if that's what you're saying then you're misrepresenting me for some reason. Now, the vast majority of Adventurers are, in essence, mercenaries, and their personalities tend to reflect a life of brutal combat and lethal encounters. I cant speak for the stupidity of players cringily playing out wish fulfillment scenarios they've seen in anime, but Adventurers besides the players do in fact exist in the games, and we can make judgements based on what we see of them, which is that the adventurers that tend to survive tend to operate like a magical SWAT team.
The people I mention don't care for anime. The just like doing murderhobo adventures of travelling from town to town finding whatever job is available and doing it. No guild.


Then what the fuck is the point of the guild then and how would it not be instantly out competed by guilds who do their fucking job coherently and competently?

Fantasy Bounty Boards are the cringiest weebshit trope and need to be burned in a bonfire. No one would use them for anything immediate, anything progressive, they'd literally be what they're called: bounty boards, used to post actual bounties for criminals on the run, and they'd be handled through the official authorities, or else anyone could just put one up for anything. No one would ever post a bounty for something that was an immediate threat, because you'd need an immediate response. No one would go through a lumbering bureaucracy to solve a small scale problem either.
What are we even discussing here at this point? GS or just generic fantasy?

It's not impossible that what you mention here happen we just don't see it.

Not everything is bounty boards as I already mentioned.


Grow a sense of taste.
what you mean is have your taste.

Look man, I get your point. It would be great if everything was like Tolkien quality or near it. But that's unlikely unfortunately nowadays and I can accept that. Also I have the position that I'd everything was like Tolkien, it would mean nothing special.

Also, lots of fiction authors especially in US comics are we obsessed with trying to make their work have "depth" and be capable of changing the world or people instead of being actual entertainment and cause of this, their work is shitty.

To appear intelligent and cutting edge and philosophical they destroy the heroes journey or anything like that cause it goes against the idea of everyone being equal. I could go on. Pretentious bullshit essentially.

She doesn't look like a woman either.
that's why I said teen.

As I said, anyone being that stupid or that inured to danger would be rare, whereas Goblin Slayer encounters a dozen literal children being sent into a meat grinder in one week and he flat out says that it's very common.
yes. In a world of constant heroes and constant hostile creatures running around, demon lords rising and falling. Not all noob adventures die and we even see that.

I'm depressed that you dont realize that TV tropes is a shitty place to find examples.




First, that picture is from Dark Sun, a specifically primitive and extremely impoverished environment where the average technological level is like the stone age.

Second, their crudely scraped together armor and shield is still a hundred times superior to a chainmail bikini or what the little girl cleric is wearing.
the girl is showing off cleavage and her thighs.the priestess wears clothes that you can see thighs too but not cleavage .

Also just an example that your position that your way is the only way that happened is not true.
 
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Abhorsen

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Osaul
Then what the fuck is the point of the guild then and how would it not be instantly out competed by guilds who do their fucking job coherently and competently?

Fantasy Bounty Boards are the cringiest weebshit trope and need to be burned in a bonfire. No one would use them for anything immediate, anything progressive, they'd literally be what they're called: bounty boards, used to post actual bounties for criminals on the run, and they'd be handled through the official authorities, or else anyone could just put one up for anything. No one would ever post a bounty for something that was an immediate threat, because you'd need an immediate response. No one would go through a lumbering bureaucracy to solve a small scale problem either.
So in two parts:

First, a guild isn't a company, it's more a union than a company, enabling monopolies (which is why they don't really exist today). In the past, they were enforced by law and by a host of non-competitive business practices. So the blacksmith's guild might not sell horseshoes to your Livery company unless that livery company is part of the taxi guild, for example. Also, they would chase out of town any non-members who would work without being a member of the guild. So expect an adventurer's guild to isolate any non-guild adventurer they can, while also hogging all of the requests (hence the bounties only being redeemable by guild members). For a darker tone, they might murder non-guildmembers who adventure. And it's almost always in an adventurer's best interest to join, unless it got completely corrupt, because then they get to sell at monopoly rates (literally most of the point of a union/guild).

So it's not outcompeted because there's no desire to make a competitor, as a) why compete when you can make monopolistic prices anyway, and b) any competitors are going to get killed off, maybe literally, or if they do succeed, they'd kill off the original, still leaving you with one adventurer's guild.

As for Fantasy Bounty boards, they get looked at daily by a group of people competing with each other trying to make money, so you'll likely see someone try to solve it the day after posting. Also, in places with guilds, under the table jobs aren't all that attractive as adventurer's can work at the guild for monopoly prices instead, and theirs the added risk of being tossed from the adventurer's economy for trying to cheat a guild, so you can't solve your problems at all anymore. Also, they don't require a lot of bureaucracy, just nailing a notice to the right board, after haggling your price. In contrast, without the guild, one has to find an adventurer, convince them to do this job (hoping it's not too high or low level), negotiate a price, and hope the person actually solves the problem instead of lying. A bounty board is much simpler: go to the guild, haggle a price, post it.
 

JagerIV

Well-known member
Gold is measured in troy ounces, like most precious metals, and most gold counts countain one troy ounce of gold. Which is currently worth $1881 per ounce. A comfortable amount, but everything Wick buys with them costs far, far more.

Eh, I don't recall him buying all that extravagent an amount with them, but I also only saw the first movie, so maybe they get worse about it in time. A quick google suggests based on the size of the coins the dollar value would be about $2,000 dollars, which would seem reasonable from some of the numbers of coins he gave to people. At least in the first movie, he if anything seems to be overpaying for certain things!
 

Battlegrinder

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Obozny


There’s a scene in 2 that makes it clear he's vastly underpaying. A normal high quality suit costs several thousand dollars, let alone a custom tailored bulletproof one. And he buys two of them.

Presuming he buys the guns with a coin, you could maybe get the pistol and rifle for that, but the shotgun alone would cost almost two grand accord to Google. And also they're all heavily customized, so they'd be even more expensive.
 

bullethead

Part-time fanfic writer
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Star Trek: Discovery has a lot of these, due to the massive behind the scenes problems it had in the first two seasons, but the most glaring example of this is the season 1 finale.

So Discovery returns to the "Prime" (this is highly debatable) universe after a few weeks in the Mirror Universe, only to discover that they wound up 9 months after they left their original universe, and that the Klingons (who've been waging war against the Federation for all of season 1) have conquered a huge chunk of the Federation, destroyed 1/3 of Starfleet, and are on the verge of attacking Earth itself.

Now, if Discovery was its own timeline, then this would all be fine and super interesting. However, because this is supposed to be a TOS prequel, the writers expect us to accept that this scenario and its solution (which is fucking stupid) will result in the Federation/Klingon relations seen in TOS... when A) it makes Cartwright and company look totally justified in Star Trek 6, and B) I don't think 8 to 10 years is enough time for people to get over planet depopulating atrocities committed by the Klingons.
 

LifeisTiresome

Well-known member
Star Trek: Discovery has a lot of these, due to the massive behind the scenes problems it had in the first two seasons, but the most glaring example of this is the season 1 finale.

So Discovery returns to the "Prime" (this is highly debatable) universe after a few weeks in the Mirror Universe, only to discover that they wound up 9 months after they left their original universe, and that the Klingons (who've been waging war against the Federation for all of season 1) have conquered a huge chunk of the Federation, destroyed 1/3 of Starfleet, and are on the verge of attacking Earth itself.

Now, if Discovery was its own timeline, then this would all be fine and super interesting. However, because this is supposed to be a TOS prequel, the writers expect us to accept that this scenario and its solution (which is fucking stupid) will result in the Federation/Klingon relations seen in TOS... when A) it makes Cartwright and company look totally justified in Star Trek 6, and B) I don't think 8 to 10 years is enough time for people to get over planet depopulating atrocities committed by the Klingons.
Coherency and canon is White Supremacy. The Writers by ignoring all of that are striking a blow against White Supremacy and the Patriarchy 😡
 

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