What is the strongest magic-wielding fantasy world modern USA can defeat?

GoldRanger

May the power protect you
Founder
Some of you may have seen Gate, the anime where Japan invades and basically curbstomps an alternate fantasy dimension.

For most fictional fantasy worlds the outcome of a modern military invasion would be one of two:

a. Modern completely destroys magical. That's what happens when the magical side has a mostly medieval society with the rare mages of limited power here and there.

b. Magical completely destroys modern. Would happen with settings that have magitech, or magic powerful enough to sunder continents, actual living gods that protect the world from external invasion etc.

My question is - what existing setting would be close enough in terms of power that the USA (used here for convenience since it is the most militarily and economically powerful modern country) will struggle with it, but not be beaten by it entirely (at least not right away), a situation that would maybe be similar to an invasion of a more or less peer modern country?

Let's assume no nukes, biological or chemical warfare, since these tend to make things simpler and less interesting. If you really must have a big boom in your invasion, FOAB is still a thing.

We'll also assume that at the very start of the invasion the opponents have no information at all about each other, therefore intelligence gathering efforts are a priority for both sides.
 

Murica

National Treasure
I'll just go ahead and list off a couple settings and give my immediate thoughts.

LOTR - This would be a complete curb-stomp in the USA's favour. Guns (let alone air support) immediately make any army of orks, goblins, or other hostiles go the way of the dinosaurs. It would be like that one scene in Youko Senjii when it's the one battalion against an army and the army gets dopeslapped.

FFVII - This one would be pretty close if not a loss on the US' part. Due to OP's banning of WMDs, I can only assume that the WEAPONs are no more and we're only dealing with the monsters, men, and magitech here. Let's face it-- SOLDIERs are pretty overpowered on the best of days, let alone the magic-users that can bring people back from the dead. I think it would eventually come down to the US just throwing people into the meat grinder and hoping that Shinra runs out of men or materials.

More settings pending, but this is what I've got for now.
 

The Original Sixth

Well-known member
Founder
I'm not familiar with FR specifically, but as a D&D setting won't they have some scary powerful critters there? Like Great Wyrms, literal Gods? Do they have a Tarrasque?

Gods rarely make an appearance on the mortal plane. They'd also probably start adjusting their market towards the people with hundreds of millions of worshipers over those with...far less. Even then, most clerical power is incredibly limited. The oldest dragons, if they cared, would be an issue. The Tarrasque is more like a natural disaster and is more likely to terrorize the people who LIVE in FR than attack the US military. And even then, the Tarrasque getting blown the fuck out would probably result it in going to sleep than trying to get repeatedly blown up.

Most of FR though can be managed by technological innovations, US naval power, and economic gifts or sanctions.
 

Drakar

Member
Gods rarely make an appearance on the mortal plane. They'd also probably start adjusting their market towards the people with hundreds of millions of worshipers over those with...far less. Even then, most clerical power is incredibly limited. The oldest dragons, if they cared, would be an issue. The Tarrasque is more like a natural disaster and is more likely to terrorize the people who LIVE in FR than attack the US military. And even then, the Tarrasque getting blown the fuck out would probably result it in going to sleep than trying to get repeatedly blown up.

Most of FR though can be managed by technological innovations, US naval power, and economic gifts or sanctions.
Faerun would beat the US by virtue of it's Epic Wizards. The US (and Earth as a whole) can't really do much against the likes of Larloch/Szass Tam/Ioulaum. Wizards of that level can comfortably conquer our world without us being able to do anything.

I also hate to be that guy, but Wraiths. The Wraithpocalypse is a meme for a reason. Drop a single Wraith in a highly populated city and you'll have millions of wraiths in short order. You can't kill them without magic and their numbers can grow exponentially. Every victim they kill becomes another Wraith.
 

Drakar

Member
Dragons can be taken out by ballistas, a rocket is going to blow them up easily.
Only if they are very young. As Asoiaf dragons grow, their scales harden until they are all but impenetrable. The Dornish got unbelievably lucky with Meraxes. They did a 1 in a million impossible ballista shot to the brain through the eye. On adult dragons, the eyes are their only weak spot.

When the Dornish tried to repeat their miracle against Vhagar and Caraxes, it ended with all of them dying. They put as many ballistas as they could on every ship they had and all they managed was to get their fleet destroyed. Aemon and Baelon were celebrated for their bloodless victory (nobody on their side died).

Of course, rockets should be able to kill dragons pretty easily, but ballistas are just not very effective. It's almost impossible to kill an Asoiaf dragon with in setting technology. The best counter for dragons is having your own dragon. Otherwise, you are probably just going to get burned alive.
 

Doomsought

Well-known member
Gods rarely make an appearance on the mortal plane. They'd also probably start adjusting their market towards the people with hundreds of millions of worshipers over those with...far less. Even then, most clerical power is incredibly limited. The oldest dragons, if they cared, would be an issue. The Tarrasque is more like a natural disaster and is more likely to terrorize the people who LIVE in FR than attack the US military. And even then, the Tarrasque getting blown the fuck out would probably result it in going to sleep than trying to get repeatedly blown up.

Most of FR though can be managed by technological innovations, US naval power, and economic gifts or sanctions.
Divine intervention is politically limited. Major interventions generally don't happen if there is at least one god with an applicable portfolio that is still opposing, but if you piss them all off they can change the local laws of physics on you.

One example of this happening was do to orbital bombardment by the elves during the unhuman wars.

The general rule is as long as you don't attemp genocides or ending a religion you will be safe from overt divine intervention. Still, you will get various heroes, champions and prophecies thrown in your way when a god doesn't like what you are doing, but they are forced to play it behind the scenes by the other gods.
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
Sotnik
*finds the oldest thread in the Versus Forum*

I'm not familiar with FR specifically, but as a D&D setting won't they have some scary powerful critters there? Like Great Wyrms, literal Gods? Do they have a Tarrasque?

They do have the Tarrasque but as for Gods... it's not as big a deal if you try and reconcile the fact that they'd only be able to have their 'Avatars' appear as errr avatars of their Gods instead of engaging in some manner of divine fuckery to instapwn the Modern World.

Also thanks to 5e we don't need that sort of +1/nonmagical weapon immunity with many monsters. It's instead reduced to various resistances so eventually even those Great Wyrms might get dragged down by superior modern day firepower.
 

The Original Sixth

Well-known member
Founder
Faerun would beat the US by virtue of it's Epic Wizards. The US (and Earth as a whole) can't really do much against the likes of Larloch/Szass Tam/Ioulaum. Wizards of that level can comfortably conquer our world without us being able to do anything.

Larloch wouldn't give a damn either way. He's never had any inclination towards world domination. The closest he's come to that since the fall of Netheril was trying to take over Mystra's place in the pantheon. Assuming he survived the attempt, he'd go back to his magical research. Larloch employs people who strive towards world domination.

Ioulaum is also not invested in any of these powers, as far as I can see.

That just leaves Szass Tam, who is the only one that is politically motivated at all. Last we saw of him, he had gone from power politics to trying to rewrite reality. Since attempting the same thing in RL Earth would probably end with Szass Tam getting a visit from the Archangel Gabriel, that's probably not going to happen.

Power politics is another situation. Szass Tam cannot win a direct war against the United States. This isn't an issue of whether or not they can kill Szass Tam, but rather that the US could cripple every city in his realm. Without the economic and military might of Thay, Szass would not be able to continue his expensive magical studies, experiments, and neither would the wizards beneath him. That in turn would leave Szass Tam exposed to local mages who would be more interested in the downfall of Szass Tam than the downfall of the United States.

I also hate to be that guy, but Wraiths. The Wraithpocalypse is a meme for a reason. Drop a single Wraith in a highly populated city and you'll have millions of wraiths in short order.

You actually won't.

  1. A wraith has no power in natural sunlight. So such reproduction cannot simply spread without friction.
  2. Wraiths shun areas of bright light. Somehow, I don't think dropping a wraith in NYC will cause the entire city to fall. It's constantly bright and full of light. You'd need a considerably powerful wizard to compel the wraith to attack.
  3. Wraiths tend to haunt areas of darkness and death.
You would most definitively have a boom in a wraith population in NYC, but they're not going to overrun the city. In fact, you might actually make NYC safer, since most of the people the wraiths are going to catch are going to be criminals, bums, mentally unhinged, or troublemakers.

You can't kill them without magic and their numbers can grow exponentially. Every victim they kill becomes another Wraith.

Also incorrect.

  1. 5e equated radiant damage with lasers. Since the US can produce lasers (albeit, not as efficient battlefield weapons--but still possible), they're not impossible to kill.
  2. 5e made them resistant to damage, not immune. So enough bullets will still kill one.
  3. 5e also only made them resistant to fire, not immune. So flam throwers.
  4. Ignoring 5e altogether, they can still be harmed by silver weapons.
What you will generate is an entirely new class of economics as wraith hunters employ new weapons and gear to combat the monsters. Flash grenades, floodlights, silver spears/crossbows/bullets, and possibly lasers (or flamethrowers) to destroy them.

Only if they are very young. As Asoiaf dragons grow, their scales harden until they are all but impenetrable. The Dornish got unbelievably lucky with Meraxes. They did a 1 in a million impossible ballista shot to the brain through the eye. On adult dragons, the eyes are their only weak spot.

When the Dornish tried to repeat their miracle against Vhagar and Caraxes, it ended with all of them dying. They put as many ballistas as they could on every ship they had and all they managed was to get their fleet destroyed. Aemon and Baelon were celebrated for their bloodless victory (nobody on their side died).

Of course, rockets should be able to kill dragons pretty easily, but ballistas are just not very effective. It's almost impossible to kill an Asoiaf dragon with in setting technology. The best counter for dragons is having your own dragon. Otherwise, you are probably just going to get burned alive.

Ballistas are basically useless, but I doubt anyone in the US is going to use anything less sophisticated than WWII weaponry in a siege battle with a dragon. And most likely they're going to be taken out by a jet, a high power cannon, or AA weapons. The biggest issue with dragons, is that they can perform spells, have long lives, and can essentially melt away into the population.

*finds the oldest thread in the Versus Forum*

They do have the Tarrasque but as for Gods... it's not as big a deal if you try and reconcile the fact that they'd only be able to have their 'Avatars' appear as errr avatars of their Gods instead of engaging in some manner of divine fuckery to instapwn the Modern World.

Also thanks to 5e we don't need that sort of +1/nonmagical weapon immunity with many monsters. It's instead reduced to various resistances so eventually even those Great Wyrms might get dragged down by superior modern day firepower.

This really breaks down to what sort of D&D you're referring to. Lore is often different than game mechanics, which is what 5e is strongly associated with. Not as much as say, 4th, but the monsters are mostly just weapons and obstacles. 3e and prior versions treated them as living creatures, so you could more easily discern how they would integrate in real life. That said, we know from lore that nothing short of lower end gods could really do anything against the US in a direct war. Even a fairly older dragon is not going to be able to survive a fight with F-16s without copious amounts of magic being used.

The only thing that could fight them would be a lesser power, which would be capable of essentially releasing magical nukes.

Of course, most high powered magical beings are not going to get in a fight they can't win and will be better off working through the US's own system and with indirect warfare than head-on.
 

LindyAF

Well-known member
The strongest thing vs modern USA in ASOIAF isn't dragons by a long shot, it's the Others. Depends on how they actually work (ASOIAF doesn't go into enough detail where it's ended) but instant zombie armies + massive famines could get out of hand, fast.
 
Last edited:

LindyAF

Well-known member
Codex Alera might be close? Magic in Codex Alera is extremely strong and might make up for a difference in tech + industrial capacity, but it's not overwhelmingly so and it doesn't outright negate technology, so I could see it going the other way as well.
 

Doomsought

Well-known member
That said, we know from lore that nothing short of lower end gods could really do anything against the US in a direct war. Even a fairly older dragon is not going to be able to survive a fight with F-16s without copious amounts of magic being used.
Actually, no. The gods could, at least theoretically, use their domain powers to really fuck America up.

There are certain indications that AO periodically leans on Gond to make gunpowder formulas no longer work.

However that also shows the reasons why domain powers aren't able to be used to instantly win wars: the gods interfere with each-other. Alot. The US would likely have YHWH and a few other deities from out universe act against any hostile gods, and several of the native gods would also side with the US. For example, the previously named Gond. We'd also get a few dark gods and archdevil supporting the US for various reasons, either as allies of convenience of against their rivals or because they think the vices or American Culture would make them stronger.

So there might be a few temporary disasters caused by various gods until other gods come by and clean it up.
 

The Original Sixth

Well-known member
Founder
Actually, no. The gods could, at least theoretically, use their domain powers to really fuck America up.

There are certain indications that AO periodically leans on Gond to make gunpowder formulas no longer work.

Well, first--as I said, unless lesser powers get involved, there's nothing that can really go head to head with the US directly. Lesser powers are still...well, gods. Nor would Ao involve himself, for if he were, he could simply be rid of the Americans himself. He has total authority within Realmspace. If there were an authority that could overpower him, he's got bigger problems than the Americans.

However that also shows the reasons why domain powers aren't able to be used to instantly win wars: the gods interfere with each-other. Alot. The US would likely have YHWH and a few other deities from out universe act against any hostile gods, and several of the native gods would also side with the US. For example, the previously named Gond. We'd also get a few dark gods and archdevil supporting the US for various reasons, either as allies of convenience of against their rivals or because they think the vices or American Culture would make them stronger.

So there might be a few temporary disasters caused by various gods until other gods come by and clean it up.

Let's back up a step. First, deities in FR don't behave in the same ways as gods are imagined, fantasy or otherwise. In FR, the gods are primarily interested in their own domains. Obsessed. Gond, for example, doesn't really care what happens in regards to magic, so long as it doesn't interfere with his own portfolio. Mystra acts the same way towards technology; so long as it doesn't cross her own portfolio, she doesn't care. Their indifference begins and ends at the border of their portfolio.

Now, the world is very complicated, so gods like Gond and Mystra can find themselves opposed to each other and all other gods on some level, but they act more as nations do than as individuals. They'll escalate indirect attacks or engage in cold wars. Going all out and stripping a group or a god from your domain can be very serious. Midnight, for example, was threatened with censorship by the gods in her own pantheon if she didn't remove her own censorship on Cyric. And both of them, along with Kelemvor were ALL put on trial for failure to uphold their portfolios and interfering with others, by reason of humanity. (of some shade or another)

A military invasion by the US would not actually trigger a response by the gods. Not a direct one, at least. What would trigger a response is Christians moving into the region and trying to spread the faith of YHWH. Because that's an actual threat to the gods; the loss of worship through Christian conversion would drain the gods of their powers and force them to act in their own interests. Of course, that would mean the entire pantheon essentially trying to challenge a being as great (or greater) than Ao.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top