What is the strongest magic-wielding fantasy world modern USA can defeat?

[Bear Ribs]

Getting away from the currently popular suspects, I'm reasonably sure the US could take Prydain but it would be one heck of a fight. Without Drynwyn (which can't be used by anyone save those of noble worth, and has been missing so long even the Wise think it's an old wive's tale) it's impossible to kill Cauldron-Born, but on the other hand they grow steadily weaker the further they get from the Black Cauldron so they're basically a very tough nut to crack but won't be able to casually trample over the US military. On the flipside there's a decent array of magics they can use, Arawn's ability to shapeshift into anything will give him some significant infiltration powers, Hen Wen can predict the future, Menwy the Bard has some kind of Detect Truth power going on, and Eilonwy has a range of enchanting powers. We see a pretty decent mix without anything being too crazy. the Huntsmen of Annuvin are straight up an army of Captain America-tier fighters, and each time one of them is killed the rest of them grow stronger so they're going to get dangerous quite fast, though the lack of numbers will hurt them in the long run.

Overall Prydain has a ridiculously wide range of relatively minor powers that would let them sucker punch the US with Out-Of-Context attacks over and over again but nothing that they could actually finish it with.

Xanth is an interesting (and as you get into the series, increasingly creepy) case because although they have every superpower under the sun up to and including reality warping, and could easily stop the US cold, they won't because their system is dependent on being conquered periodically to bring in fresh human genetic material. They can't actually counter-attack because E(A/R)th doesn't like X(A\N)th's magic powers messing with its physics powers and tries to push magic out, with the border where they meet generating Floridaman.

Overall Xanth can be ridiculously powerful but has no particular reason to try to stop the US, who couldn't actually do anything in the long term. Instead, they'd work for a cultural victory and turn invading armies into something that respected Xanthian culture, and assimilate them. So a win for the US kinda...

 

[DeltaNine]

Getting away from the currently popular suspects, I'm reasonably sure the US could take Prydain but it would be one heck of a fight. Without Drynwyn (which can't be used by anyone save those of noble worth, and has been missing so long even the Wise think it's an old wive's tale) it's impossible to kill Cauldron-Born, but on the other hand they grow steadily weaker the further they get from the Black Cauldron so they're basically a very tough nut to crack but won't be able to casually trample over the US military. On the flipside there's a decent array of magics they can use, Arawn's ability to shapeshift into anything will give him some significant infiltration powers, Hen Wen can predict the future, Menwy the Bard has some kind of Detect Truth power going on, and Eilonwy has a range of enchanting powers. We see a pretty decent mix without anything being too crazy. the Huntsmen of Annuvin are straight up an army of Captain America-tier fighters, and each time one of them is killed the rest of them grow stronger so they're going to get dangerous quite fast, though the lack of numbers will hurt them in the long run.

Overall Prydain has a ridiculously wide range of relatively minor powers that would let them sucker punch the US with Out-Of-Context attacks over and over again but nothing that they could actually finish it with.

Xanth is an interesting (and as you get into the series, increasingly creepy) case because although they have every superpower under the sun up to and including reality warping, and could easily stop the US cold, they won't because their system is dependent on being conquered periodically to bring in fresh human genetic material. They can't actually counter-attack because E(A/R)th doesn't like X(A\N)th's magic powers messing with its physics powers and tries to push magic out, with the border where they meet generating Floridaman.

Overall Xanth can be ridiculously powerful but has no particular reason to try to stop the US, who couldn't actually do anything in the long term. Instead, they'd work for a cultural victory and turn invading armies into something that respected Xanthian culture, and assimilate them. So a win for the US kinda...

Well I should note with Xanth that it depends on the time period to some degree. The first book (A gift for Charmeleon I want to say) the human king is so strongly opposed to none magic human, that between him and the king's before him the human population was in steady decline. They probably would fight with the US but thankfully do seem to lack a lot of the crazy hax in later books.

 

[Bear Ribs]

Well I should note with Xanth that it depends on the time period to some degree. The first book (A gift for Charmeleon I want to say) the human king is so strongly opposed to none magic human, that between him and the king's before him the human population was in steady decline. They probably would fight with the US but thankfully do seem to lack a lot of the crazy hax in later books.

A Spell for Chameleon if I recall the name correctly. Man, that was a long time ago.

Yeah, there're specific Xanthian regimes that might try to prevent an invasion but those are the ones that get easily conquered, the human population steadily declines between mundane invasions and without sufficient humans, there's no source of Magicians so the amount of magic they can throw around drops and they get ripe for invading. Pretty sure it was bad enough they had a horse in charge at one point.

I remember it implied that a few times humanity did manage to go extinct at which point the next mundane invasion walked right in a colonized the place but I can't recall where.

 

[DeltaNine]

A Spell for Chameleon if I recall the name correctly. Man, that was a long time ago.

Yeah, there're specific Xanthian regimes that might try to prevent an invasion but those are the ones that get easily conquered, the human population steadily declines if there's not a mundane invasion going on and without humans, there's no source of Magicians so the amount of magic they can throw around drops and they get ripe for invading. Pretty sure it was bad enough they had a horse in charge at one point.

I recall it's implied that a few times humanity did manage to go extinct at which point the next mundane invasion walked right in a colonized the place but I can't recall where.

A Google search tells me you are correct. Spell not gift. It's been forever.

Well they don't need a ton of mages just one or two capital M Magicians as I think the books put it. There classification for folks who are just cream of the crop crazy powerful bullshit. Though people like King Trent aren't near as nightmarish as people like the reverse magician both of who qualify as Magicians.

I don't recall them ever saying humanity went extinct but I do recall them saying it was a strong possiblity. But that doesn't mean much as by the time I stopped reading there was apparently 28 novels. I read maybe 10 or 12 of those and the man is apparently still writing so... 45 books. Jeeze. Think he would of run out of steam.

 

[Atarlost]

The big problem against a lot of fantasy settings, even some that appear quite low power, is that what D&D calls enchantment is as much of an outside context problem for us as heavy bombers are to most fantasy settings. We can't even defend from mundane demoralization attacks decades after a KGB defector handed us the playbook.

Even LotR would be a problem. Who's going to be Frodo and destroy a ring of power? I'm pretty sure I'd be a Boromir. And I doubt most would be Frodos would be combative enough to resist the full weight of their government. And almost every government is full of Sarumans. The best are run by Boromirs. You don't get into a position of power by being a Frodo.

And on the other hand a magitech setting that just uses magic to do the sorts of things we could do with technology becomes simple comparison of the tech they can emulate and relative populations.

 

[Bear Ribs]

A Google search tells me you are correct. Spell not gift. It's been forever.

Well they don't need a ton of mages just one or two capital M Magicians as I think the books put it. There classification for folks who are just cream of the crop crazy powerful bullshit. Though people like King Trent aren't near as nightmarish as people like the reverse magician both of who qualify as Magicians.

I don't recall them ever saying humanity went extinct but I do recall them saying it was a strong possiblity. But that doesn't mean much as by the time I stopped reading there was apparently 28 novels. I read maybe 10 or 12 of those and the man is apparently still writing so... 45 books. Jeeze. Think he would of run out of steam.

From what he's said, Xanth books are among the simplest things to write ever.

[Character] is on their way to visit Good Magician Humphrey. [Character] overcomes three random magical challenges to reach him that are quite possibly just chosen by dice. Good Magician Humphrey lets them off of the usual year of service in exchange for saving Xanth. [Character] goes through 3d10 obstacles based on random puns, many of which readers send him, and meets true companions in between pun-based obstacles. [Character] saves the day without violence, via an earlier pun that set things up. [Character] and selected true companion fall in love and start boning.

Next book: [Character and True Love's] halfbreed spawn is on their way to visit Good Magician Humphrey...

The early ones (When I was actually interested in reading them) weren't so formulaic but he found a winning and simple combo and has stuck with it for about twenty or thirty years now. There's only a handful that break formula.

So going back on topic, how would Avernum fare? The magic isn't over-the-top for the players but they're fairly small potatoes compared to the heavy hitters. I imagine the dragons could cause some trouble and the ruined world monsters in the third game are fairly brutal.

 

[Val the Moofia Boss]

The thing with this setup is that neither side is really going to be able to beat the other, so that changes the motivations and objectives for both sides. I'd suspect the war would be relatively short and limited in nature.

Most fantasy settings have pre-modern populations. Countries might have millions of people at most. Meanwhile the US has 320 million people. The fantasy setting has zero hope of being actually able to conquer and hold the USA.

What the fantasy settings can do is cripple the USA's ability to threaten or pressure them. Their superpowered warriors could go around sinking naval fleets, raiding nuclear silos, taking out key enemy personnel, etc. As the USA's military assets are being ripped apart, the USA's real enemies like Russia and China are going to start moving in, at which point the USA's leadership will have to wake up and realize that they will lose more than they will win if they continue trying to fight the fantasy setting. So a truce is signed as the USA prepares to defend itself from the other superpowers, and the fantasy setting moves to a policy of deterrence, having shown to the world how they can screw you up if you mess with them, so no one tries to make a move on them in the first place.

Imagine this happening to aircraft carriers.

As for the USA... the magic and technology of the fantasy setting will interest the USA military enough to try to acquire it for themselves. Numbers wise, they have enough soldiers that there is a decent chance that they will eventually be able to capture a sorcerer or an anime swordsman, and then interrogate or vivisect him trying to learn the magic. The megacorporate state will try to exploit the newly found world, hence the initial invasion. Probably turns into Vietnam but 100x worse. As the USA's military gets screwed up and the military realizes they have bigger fish to fry, the war will come to an end.

 

[UberIguana]

The problem with taking on a higher level fantasy world like Faerun is it's not the peasant levies with spears that will be fighting you, or even high DR dragons that may or may not be able to tank a nuke. It's the high level wizards who can teleport around casting dominate person.

They end up winning by virtue of now controlling the government. Cue government making some big show-occupation of the more medieval bits to keep the general public quiet while the wizards in charge proceed to do what they want.

The only hope for defending against this is to get some friendly high level wizards to help out.

 

[Doomsought]

The problem with taking on a higher level fantasy world like Faerun is it's not the peasant levies with spears that will be fighting you, or even high DR dragons that may or may not be able to tank a nuke. It's the high level wizards who can teleport around casting dominate person.

That is actually going to be a pretty rare case, and the few patriotic high level wizards will likely attrition out early on.

Plenty of low and medium level wizards will be involved, but even a large numbers of those are mercenaries that can very much be payed in books.

Most high level wizards are anti-social and more interested in the magical properties of a mindflayer's anus and its potential as a spell component than whomever is collecting taxes in the area. They also don't pay taxes, because nobody can make them.

 

[The Original Sixth]

That is actually going to be a pretty rare case, and the few patriotic high level wizards will likely attrition out early on.

Plenty of low and medium level wizards will be involved, but even a large numbers of those are mercenaries that can very much be payed in books.

Most high level wizards are anti-social and more interested in the magical properties of a mindflayer's anus and its potential as a spell component than whomever is collecting taxes in the area. They also don't pay taxes, because nobody can make them.

If anything, an archmage might actually prefer the power and stability of the United States, because the US can produce more steady supply chains, rule of law, and efficiencies that medieval societies cannot. They'd oppose (and outright ignore) any sort of regulations imposed upon them--and that the US cannot manage, but that's something that can be negotiated. It's not like rich oligarchs who can't be touched are unheard of in our world.

The problem with taking on a higher level fantasy world like Faerun is it's not the peasant levies with spears that will be fighting you, or even high DR dragons that may or may not be able to tank a nuke. It's the high level wizards who can teleport around casting dominate person.

But why? Why would those wizards do that? Most of them are far more interested in their research projects than they are about who is in charge. We've seen D&D cities with lots of magic and wizards go to war before--and they would not be able to withstand US power. Their casters do not have the range to compete with fighters, bombers, and artillery. You can look to the wars in Sembia to see that they still rely heavily on stone walls. Reinforced with magic and wards, yes--but that ends where the walls end. Dragons are able to attack from above and with near impunity.

They end up winning by virtue of now controlling the government. Cue government making some big show-occupation of the more medieval bits to keep the general public quiet while the wizards in charge proceed to do what they want.

The only hope for defending against this is to get some friendly high level wizards to help out.

The problem with the US, would be that such control is going to be limited. Dominating the President still leaves his generals and the Congress. And if the President starts trying to alter information or calling off the war, he's going to be out of office by the next day. Or suspect of having been bewitched. The most you can hope for is to use them as spies or saboteurs. Sort of like what you would see if this were Harry Potter. They can control a lot of stuff behind the scenes, but they would not be able to win a direct war.

 

[Doomsought]

...How? First of all, that ship is made of wood. Something far, far weaker than the armor on a Super Carrier. Second, look at how close that guy had to GET in order to make his attack happen. No ship ever going to just stroll up to a Super Carrier. There are about a dozen ship acting as escort for a Super Carrier. Even if he managed to take down one of THEM, the response from the rest of the fleet would turn him into a bloody smear across the surface of the ocean.

Super carriers also tend to just keep moving constantly, and their cruising speed is faster than the max speed of most sailing ships.

 

[The Original Sixth]

Super carriers also tend to just keep moving constantly, and their cruising speed is faster than the max speed of most sailing ships.

Also much, much thicker. Nor would the Super Carrier sink quickly. Those holes could be patched and that area sealed off from the rest of the ship, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Doomsought]

Also much, much thicker. Nor would the Super Carrier sink quickly. Those holes could be patched and that area sealed off from the rest of the ship, if I'm not mistaken.

If you close the right doors quick enough, a modern warship would probably be able to stay afloat after being cut in half. It wouldn't be going anywhere under its own power, but if the weather was particularly cooperative you may even be able to tow both halves to drydock.

 

[Bear Ribs]

I feel like we should really leave Yahweh out of this discussion. Ignoring the theological aspects, this is about an entire fantasy world vs. the US, not the US and every diety ever worshipped in the US. This does mean some fantasy worlds with highly active gods that perform daily miracles are going to stomp, oh well.

 

[LindyAF]

^Agree with this.

 

[LTR]

Yahweh Discussion Moved Here:

https://www.the-sietch.com/index.php?threads/use-of-elohim-in-the-bible.6407/

 

[King Arts]

I feel like we should really leave Yahweh out of this discussion. Ignoring the theological aspects, this is about an entire fantasy world vs. the US, not the US and every diety ever worshipped in the US. This does mean some fantasy worlds with highly active gods that perform daily miracles are going to stomp, oh well.

You asked earlier how Konosuba would do? Both good and bad. The magic if used competently explosion would allow intelligent mage insurgents/terrorists/guerillas/freedom fighters to nuke a site every day at least. But it's konosuba so people won't act intelligently. More likely Darkness even though she could survive a nuke gets captured, rants about being raped, degraded, and enslaved by foreign invaders while sporting a grin and blushing like crazy, some stupid soldier might actually try to fuck her since they'll stick their dicks in almost anything. America might be publicly embarrassed by this, Joe Biden is accused of sniffing her. I don't know what else.

 

[Bear Ribs]

You asked earlier how Konosuba would do? Both good and bad. The magic if used competently explosion would allow intelligent mage insurgents/terrorists/guerillas/freedom fighters to nuke a site every day at least. But it's konosuba so people won't act intelligently. More likely Darkness even though she could survive a nuke gets captured, rants about being raped, degraded, and enslaved by foreign invaders while sporting a grin and blushing like crazy, some stupid soldier might actually try to fuck her since they'll stick their dicks in almost anything. America might be publicly embarrassed by this, Joe Biden is accused of sniffing her. I don't know what else.

I'm not sure if all of Konosuba acts that way or just Kazuma's gang though. When he swaps parties (With Dust IIRC) Dust winds up amazed at how dysfunctional and useless Kazuma's party is while Dust's party is impressed with Kazuma's ingenuity and leadership. Similarly, all the Crimson Demon Clan are chuuni but only Megumin was dumb enough to make her build so she could only cast one spell a day, the rest of them tend to be decently well-rounded casters.

Granted if it were an episode Kazuma's group would be front and center anyway.

 

[Crazysaneman]

I would like to see the Modern US military fight it out in Midcyru from the Night Angel Trilogy. It's kind of a medieval world with mid magic but a hell of a group of bad guys.

Not a chance in hell. FR has a panoply of entities that could individually solo the entire modern RL Earth as basically a casual weekend outing.

SO true. The Simbul alone could absolutely solo modern day earth with a moments notice. Look what she did to hell when Elminster was trapped there. She's just ONE of the wielders of the silver fire.
Another good one would be Szass Tam. Your dead becomes his army XD

 

[Bassoe]

LOTR - This would be a complete curb-stomp in the USA's favour.

Sauron surrenders. We lose.