What do you think the US's policy towards Israel should be?

[History Learner]

Can we apply it to all of the threads they're in? Pasta posting is a crime against humanity.

Well not BG. The Versus threads are worthwhile and that forum should get more traffic.

Im sorry, I get too passionate sometimes.

 

[Battlegrinder]

I'm curious why you think we cannot align ourselves with terrorists when we routinely do so all the time. Plenty of the actions Israel has taken against Palestinians, particularly it's well-documented policy of collective punishment and targeting of civilian infrastructure like hospitals and schools could easily be construed as terrorism.

Could be construed, but only by ignoring context. Hamas, like many terrorists, has a well documented habit of intentional intermixing it's infrastructure with civilian infrastructure and using civilians as human shields, because it forces Israeli forces to either ignoring hamas's war materials or take PR hits from people like you that fall for the hamas line.

Israeli has no such policy of collective punishment, the most credible source saying they do is the UN, which is A) still laughably biased against Israel, and B) is citing the Israeli blockade as "collective punishment", which not accurate.

Especially considering terrorism is a largely subjective and meaningless term simply used as a bludgeon by those in charge. And the Isrselis are in charge, both in Israel and America.

Also, it's worth giving a disproportionate amount of attention to Israel considering the disproportionate influence Israel has over the US. And I say this as someone who's White and Jewish.

Define "disproportionate". Based on Open Secrets data, Isreal is regularly outspent by South Korea, Japan, and the Bahamas, and I don't recall hearing this kind of paranoid discussion when it comes to them.

 

[History Learner]

Could be construed, but only by ignoring context. Hamas, like many terrorists, has a well documented habit of intentional intermixing it's infrastructure with civilian infrastructure and using civilians as human shields, because it forces Israeli forces to either ignoring hamas's war materials or take PR hits from people like you that fall for the hamas line.

How dare those Hamas Terrorists force the Israelis to murder thousands of civilians, clearly they are just using them as Human shields and its not like they have them all forced into the cramped area known as Gaza with a blockade to prevent them from leaving in mass either!

Israeli has no such policy of collective punishment, the most credible source saying they do is the UN, which is A) still laughably biased against Israel, and B) is citing the Israeli blockade as "collective punishment", which not accurate.

You're right, the UN doesn't go far enough with Israel, which does engage in collective punishment, uses chemical weapons against civilians, and is actively practicing ethnic cleansing in the West Bank.

 

[TheRejectionist]

Thing is dealing with Israel-Palestine question is tricky.

1. Political Zionism and Philosemitism are enormous influences in US politics. Also in Europe though to a lesser degree. They are capable of accusing a fellow Hebrew of self-hatred or anti-semitism or whatever.
2. It is made more easier by a little known fact that voting Israeli Jews (not necessarily all living there mind you) agree only on one thing : that they disagree. The notable exception was those damn mandates but this princeple also applies here to a degree.
3. Not all Israeli agree on what to do towards Palestine. One recent example here :
4. The Palestinian culture and politics are much less appealing than Israeli. I can date most Israeli no problem unless they are of the mentality I need a Jew to then one day make more Jews (because Holocaust apparently)
5. Palestinians have basically only 4 politically viable parties : PLO which is borderline cringe collaborator, Hamas which is Islamist and on the warpath, then another Islamist party and then a socialist-communist-leftist party
6. A lot of Palestinians aree outside West Bank and Gaza proper. Palestinians - Wikipedia and we often don't get another perspective OUTSIDE the one we frequently hear

 

[Kram]

Could be construed, but only by ignoring context. Hamas, like many terrorists, has a well documented habit of intentional intermixing it's infrastructure with civilian infrastructure and using civilians as human shields, because it forces Israeli forces to either ignoring hamas's war materials or take PR hits from people like you that fall for the hamas line.

There's also the fact that Israel has crammed them all into a tiny, dense strip of land that makes civilian casualties in any confrontation a certainty.

Israeli has no such policy of collective punishment, the most credible source saying they do is the UN, which is A) still laughably biased against Israel, and B) is citing the Israeli blockade as "collective punishment", which not accurate.

So when they, let's say, bulldoze the homes of Palestinian "terrorists" and leave their families homeless you would not call that collective punishment?

Define "disproportionate". Based on Open Secrets data, Isreal is regularly outspent by South Korea, Japan, and the Bahamas, and I don't recall hearing this kind of paranoid discussion when it comes to them.

We have funneled more money to the Israelis than to any country since WW2. There's also the fact that every major presidential candidate in at least one of our two parties have to religiously state their support for Israel. Why? Why's supporting Israel a requirement if you want to get anywhere as a Republican?

 

[Marduk]

FFS, Jews move to another continent, and in few decades they are yet again told to give up lebensraum to a different group that can't stop expanding.

 

[TheRejectionist]

FFS, Jews move to another continent, and in few decades they are yet again told to give up lebensraum to a different group that can't stop expanding.

I don't follow your statement?

 

[Marduk]

I don't follow your statement?

It was aimed at this.

There's also the fact that Israel has crammed them all into a tiny, dense strip of land that makes civilian casualties in any confrontation a certainty.

 

[Kram]

FFS, Jews move to another continent, and in few decades they are yet again told to give up lebensraum to a different group that can't stop expanding.

They don't have to give up anything to the Palestinians. They could just let them leave Gaza if they want to.

 

[LordsFire]

They don't have to give up anything to the Palestinians. They could just let them leave Gaza if they want to.

As far as I'm aware, Palestinians can go to any other part of the world that they want, other than Israel.

Are you aware of some Israeli policy preventing this?

 

[Kram]

As far as I'm aware, Palestinians can go to any other part of the world that they want, other than Israel.

Are you aware of some Israeli policy preventing this?

Gaza is bordered only by Israel and Egypt. Both countries have blockades in place. Neither allows them in. Israel has fortifications in place to keep them out. Their airspace is controlled by the Israelis. Obviously the Palestinians have no air force.

 

[TheRejectionist]

As the poster can said above me, West Bank Palestinians can. Gazan technically could...but the process is next to impossible AFAIK.

 

[Bigking321]

Gaza is bordered only by Israel and Egypt. Both countries have blockades in place.

So why aren't you complaining about Egypt?

 

[TheRejectionist]

So why aren't you complaining about Egypt?

The thread is about Israel mate. Also the current regime in Egypt is in part due to the previous government being anti-Zionist , WHICH did open up the blockade. The Sisi government in part was a reasoning of the military they didn't want to be kicked in the nuts by the Israelis another time so they deposed Morsi and restored the blockade not long after.

 

[Kram]

So why aren't you complaining about Egypt?

Because we haven't given hundreds of billions in aid to Egypt. We don't have the kind of conditionless support for them that we do for the Israelis.

It also isn't Egypt constantly killing Palestinian civilians.

 

[Marduk]

Gaza is bordered only by Israel and Egypt. Both countries have blockades in place. Neither allows them in. Israel has fortifications in place to keep them out. Their airspace is controlled by the Israelis. Obviously the Palestinians have no air force.

So, have you thought about why the Egyptians hate their fellow Muslims so much?
Oh, wait, Gaza shelters Egypt's terrorists...

Sinai insurgency - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Army of Islam smuggles members into the Gaza Strip for training, then returns them to the Sinai Peninsula to engage in terrorist and jihadist activities.

Cool move, that's how you make other countries like you. Not.

The blockade is mostly about keeping weapon building materials out of Gaza, while keeping weapons and militants out of Egypt. Even the most vehement ultranationalist Israelis would love if Gazans would just get up and leave, preferably to somewhere very far away, never to come back, in fact they would probably throw the biggest party to celebrate it.

As far as I'm aware, Palestinians can go to any other part of the world that they want, other than Israel.

The real problem is that they would have to find a part of the world that wants them.

 

[Kram]

So, have you thought about why the Egyptians hate their fellow Muslims so much?
Oh, wait, Gaza shelters Egypt's terrorists...

Sinai insurgency - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Cool move, that's how you make other countries like you. Not.

The blockade is mostly about keeping weapon building materials out of Gaza, while keeping weapons and militants out of Egypt. Even the most vehement ultranationalist Israelis would love if Gazans would just get up and leave, preferably to somewhere very far away, never to come back, in fact they would probably throw the biggest party to celebrate it.


The real problem is that they would have to find a part of the world that wants them.

To be clear here, I am not advocating we support the Palestinians. They have had countless chances to make peace with the Israelis. They made their bed and now they can lie in it. Palestine/Israel belongs to the Jews by right of conquest.

What I am advocating for is that we cut the Israelis off. Our conditionless support for them has time and time again alienated us from the Muslim world. We've given a country with minimal strategic value obscene amounts of money and aid.

 

[Marduk]

To be clear here, I am not advocating we support the Palestinians. They have had countless chances to make peace with the Israelis. They made their bed and now they can lie in it. Palestine/Israel belongs to the Jews by right of conquest.

What I am advocating for is that we cut the Israelis off. Our conditionless support for them has time and time again alienated us from the Muslim world. We've given a country with minimal strategic value obscene amounts of money and aid.

Israel could probably do well enough without the aid.
But if you think this will make the Muslim world like you, you are dreaming.

 

[Kram]

Israel could probably do well enough without the aid.
But if you think this will make the Muslim world like you, you are dreaming.

I think it will give them far less reason to hate us and oppose us.

 

[King Arts]

Frankly, Israel's military actions (not it's existance) have affected and probably will affect negatively five countries I care about, it's indirect monetary and socio-cultural influences by proxies should be curtailed. Sanctions do no good because time and time again the only who suffer are the working class (Israeli and Arab in this case).

I still have lots admiration for Israelis, that however doesn't entail me to shrug off their bullcrap or many controversial stuff they do, did or will do.

As an example :

Ever wondered why they are THE ONLY DEMOCRACY IN THE LEVANT? If you count Jordan as one as well as Lebanon.

I'm for cutting off all support for Israel. But fuck any nation that sanctions Israel, Christians need to be able to go on pilgrimage to the holy land, which the state of Israel currently controls and has custody over. Thus any sanctions that prevent trade with or travel to Israel is bullshit.