What do you think the US's policy towards Israel should be?

Battlegrinder

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Obozny
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You're right, the UN doesn't go far enough with Israel, which does engage in collective punishment, uses chemical weapons against civilians, and is actively practicing ethnic cleansing in the West Bank.

First soure is conflating collateral damage with collective punishment, second one is flat out wrong as white phosphorus is not a chemical weapon, and you don't even cite a source for the third, which tells me everything I need to know about it.

The UN has filed more human rights complaints against Isreal than any other nation on earth combined. Even if you think they're genuinely bad in many areas, that degree of hostility by the UN isn't warranted.

There's also the fact that Israel has crammed them all into a tiny, dense strip of land that makes civilian casualties in any confrontation a certainty.

That's somewhat inaccurate, no one had has ever been "crammed into" Gaza in the sense you're talking about, the strip has never had people forcibly relocated into it. It's popular has simply grown.

As for collateral damage, yes it's inevitable. So?

So when they, let's say, bulldoze the homes of Palestinian "terrorists" and leave their families homeless you would not call that collective punishment?

I can't find any reputable sources that claim something like that is happening.

We have funneled more money to the Israelis than to any country since WW2.

Yes, and? Someone was going benefit the most from US aid, if it happened to be, say, Japan, does that mean Japan secretly runs the US.

There's also the fact that every major presidential candidate in at least one of our two parties have to religiously state their support for Israel. Why? Why's supporting Israel a requirement if you want to get anywhere as a Republican?

Why's being pro-gun or pro-life pr anti-CRT a requirement if you want to get anywhere as a republican? It's a big tent party that lumps a bunch of different interest groups together, and candidates try to appeal to all of them in order to get votes.

I could ask the same in reverse for progressives, why opposing Israel is seen as a litmus test for them.
 

Cherico

Well-known member
The problem with Israel was that it was too kind and too merciful, if they had done mass expulsions after they had gotten their current boarders they would have been screamed at for a couple years and called evil but this would all be over. Instead they tried to be merciful and just gained a never healing wound that continues to fuck them over to this day.
 

King Arts

Well-known member
The problem with Israel was that it was too kind and too merciful, if they had done mass expulsions after they had gotten their current boarders they would have been screamed at for a couple years and called evil but this would all be over. Instead they tried to be merciful and just gained a never healing wound that continues to fuck them over to this day.
That actually is true. Maybe Israel's leaders should read Machiavelli when you distribute rewards, parcel them out in smaller pieces and give them not all at once but over a longer period of time, that makes you look more generous by giving many gifts to people.
When giving punishment a leader should measure who they need to purge and give all of their punishments at once that way you can end your enemies and their allies and while it will shock people, eventually your brutality will fade.
 

Marduk

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I think it will give them far less reason to hate us and oppose us.
No, it will give them one less reason out of very many.
For example, Osama Bin Laden's writings on the subject are widely available, and a good example of a militantly hostile representative of Arab world.
Palestine is of course part of his litany of grievances against USA... But its just one of something like couple dozen or more of grievances mentioned in his letter, people like him are willing to whine at America for such tenuous and questionable connections as supporting Russian actions in Chechnya, low oil prices, poverty of Arabs, American bases in ME countries even when they want them there, being infidels in general with all that entails, including unislamic loan policies, and so on.
Long story short, Islamists are the very opposite of the "live and let live" idea of international politics, and they have no slightest intention of changing that.
 
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Kram

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First soure is conflating collateral damage with collective punishment, second one is flat out wrong as white phosphorus is not a chemical weapon, and you don't even cite a source for the third, which tells me everything I need to know about it.

The UN has filed more human rights complaints against Isreal than any other nation on earth combined. Even if you think they're genuinely bad in many areas, that degree of hostility by the UN isn't warranted.



That's somewhat inaccurate, no one had has ever been "crammed into" Gaza in the sense you're talking about, the strip has never had people forcibly relocated into it. It's popular has simply grown.
"Simply grown"

Ah, yes. All the Palestiniana who once lived in what is now Israel simply fled there to Gaza because they really like the weather.

As for collateral damage, yes it's inevitable. So?
So limit it.

I can't find any reputable sources that claim something like that is happening.
I'm curious what you'd define as a reputable source. All I have to do to find info about it is Google "Israel demolishing Palestinian homes".

Yes, and? Someone was going benefit the most from US aid, if it happened to be, say, Japan, does that mean Japan secretly runs the US.
And why is it not one of our close, age-old allies like France or the UK whose soldiers have fought side-by-side with ours in numerous wars? Why is it this small, strategically insignificant nation that hasn't even existed for a century yet? What do we get out of this that makes it worth it? Why do they deserve such a disproportionate amount of aid from us?



Why's being pro-gun or pro-life pr anti-CRT a requirement if you want to get anywhere as a republican? It's a big tent party that lumps a bunch of different interest groups together, and candidates try to appeal to all of them in order to get votes.
Being pro-gun, pro-life, and anti-CRT actually benefits and affects Americans here at home. Being pro-Israel benefits no one but the Israelis.

I could ask the same in reverse for progressives, why opposing Israel is seen as a litmus test for them.
It's really a shame that the only ones who've caught on to what a scam our support for Israel is are a bunch of braindead progressives who are otherwise wrong about everything else.
 

Kram

Member
No, it will give them one less reason out of very many.
For example, Osama Bin Laden's writings on the subject are widely available, and a good example of a militantly hostile representative of Arab world.
Palestine is of course part of his litany of grievances against USA... But its just one of something like couple dozen or more of grievances mentioned in his letter, people like him are willing to whine at America for such tenuous and questionable connections as supporting Russian actions in Chechnya, low oil prices, poverty of Arabs, American bases in ME countries even when they want them there, being infidels in general with all that entails, including unislamic loan policies, and so on.
Long story short, Islamists are the very opposite of the "live and let live" idea of international politics, and they have no slightest intention of changing that.
Osama was a fanatical, Saudi-backed Wahhabist and does not represent the grievances the majority of Muslims would have.
 

Marduk

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Osama was a fanatical, Saudi-backed Wahhabist and does not represent the grievances the majority of Muslims would have.
Well he does represent the main militant organization of the time (and the current one is only a more radical offshot of it), so yeah, as far as arguing for such moves in the name of threat reduction in Middle East goes, these are the people you have to deal with, not any more or less real theoretical groups with less ambitious demands who don't pose said threat either way.
 

Battlegrinder

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"Simply grown"

Ah, yes. All the Palestiniana who once lived in what is now Israel simply fled there to Gaza because they really like the weather.

Well, no, that's not what happened, per their own government:

Gaza_Birth-01_0.png


in 1980, well after any warfare related population movements had stopped, there were only 650,000 thousand people in the strip, the increase by a factor of nearly 4 is due to internal factors and not anything Israel did.

So limit it.

With respect, you seem to have a somewhat slanted perspective of the situation here. The Israeli military does actually do what it can to limit civilian causalities, for an example they called in a warning to the AP when they were about to launch an airstrike at a Hamas target in the same builing the AP was in. On the other hand, Hamas's entire strategy is based around increasing collateral damage. It was not just a coincidence that they were operating out of the same building that housed the AP offices, to look at that same incident. And of course for years now Hamas has adopting a strategy of "just fire random unguided rockets at Israel and hope you hit someone", a tactic that is certain to result in far more civilian deaths than military.

I'm curious what you'd define as a reputable source. All I have to do to find info about it is Google "Israel demolishing Palestinian homes".

Those would be the ones rambling on about international treaties and occupied territories, a framing of events you yourself reject, as in your view Israel has rightfully conquered that same territory, no?

And why is it not one of our close, age-old allies like France or the UK whose soldiers have fought side-by-side with ours in numerous wars? Why is it this small, strategically insignificant nation that hasn't even existed for a century yet? What do we get out of this that makes it worth it? Why do they deserve such a disproportionate amount of aid from us?

Because the French and brits have their own domestic defense industries they patronize, Israel does but it's far smaller, so we can send them money they can then use to buy stuff from us, and are in fact required to use to buy stuff from us. We don't aid Israel to be nice, we aid Israel to help lockheed martin.

Also, you realize you're getting all worked up about 4 billion dollars, out of a total budget of like 5 trillion, right? This is the rough equivalent of you having a monthly budget of 10,000 dollars and being upset that your wife gives the kids 10 bucks a month for a netflix account or something.

Being pro-gun, pro-life, and anti-CRT actually benefits and affects Americans here at home. Being pro-Israel benefits no one but the Israelis.

Well, no, even aside from the fact US aid to Israel is not particularly selfless, we benefit from access to Israel intelligence gathering, can operate facilities of our own in the country (currently we have a ballistic missile detection radar set up) and could easily expand those facilities or construct additional bases if we needed it.

It's really a shame that the only ones who've caught on to what a scam our support for Israel is are a bunch of braindead progressives who are otherwise wrong about everything else.

Progressive's have not "caught on" to the scam, they've just gotten caught in an absurdly childish mindset that boils the entire argument down to "the underdog is always right because I can see the world through the lens of power dynamics."

That's not me joking, that's what they literally believe:

It’s a complex situation. They’re just protecting their homes. Hamas fired the rockets. Only democracy in the Middle East. You can be openly gay there. Does the world need that many olive trees? Those children threw rocks. They shouldn’t have built a house where a bulldozer might someday pass by. Arafat wasn’t a good guy. America needs a bulwark against Muslim extremism. Would you send them back to the desert to wander for another thousand years? And on and on it goes: whatever comes, they had it coming.

This is what the Zionists never understand: even if all of that bullshit was true, it doesn’t matter.

If every word that they have said about the perfidy and self-destruction of the Palestinians was correct, it would make no difference. The moral obligation falls on the dominant party, and Israel is beyond dominant. The mythmaking about all of the opportunities they squandered does not make a lick of moral difference. I don’t think, for a second, that the PLO was offered some amazing deal at Taba. This mythical amazing deal that, for some reason, the Palestinians declined and that the Israelis offered once and then decided they could never offer again, despite the fact that it has so often been represented as mutually beneficial. Let’s say that actually happened. So what? Is that supposed to comfort an 11-year-old from Aqabah watching her home get bulldozed so that some ultra-orthodox racist can put up a vinyl siding nightmare of a house? Do you think a 4-year-old Palestinian whose family has just been exterminated in another ceaseless and barbaric assault on Gaza should say, “ah, but we had our chance at Taba….”? No. This is all that matters: between them, Israel is the drunken dad, coming up the stairs with his belt in his hand. It doesn’t matter if Palestinians were actually asking for it or not. You are the bully and it falls on you alone to stop. That is how the moral universe works. I’m sorry if you find it uncomfortable to be in that position.

Between a high, solid wall and an egg that breaks against it, I will always stand on the side of the egg. Yes, no matter how right the wall may be and how wrong the egg.” I have expressed this position, or echoed it really, every few years for the past twelve, and the response is always the same: this is moral error, this is juvenalia, this is an embarrassment, this is a joke. Surely adults don’t fall into these childish caricatures of political belief. And yet as I grow older it just seems more and more wise, more and more a statement of the basic status of the moral universe. You choose the wall or the egg, and in Palestine, no one could mistake one for the other.

Hence you get stuff like this, or complaints about how the US nuking Japan was morally wrong because demanding an unconditional surrender was immoral since we'd basically already won, and so on .
 
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TheRejectionist

TheRejectionist
To be somewhat balanced and neutral, both Palestinians and pro-Palestinians and Israelis and Zionists have plenty of propaganda.

Me, I just want my countries to mind their business (which we can't for a variety of reasons) and the bullshit doesn't affect Spain, Portugal, Italy, Brazil as well as Syria, since I have friends there and Israel is partly responsable for what happened there.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
How dare those Hamas Terrorists force the Israelis to murder thousands of civilians, clearly they are just using them as Human shields and its not like they have them all forced into the cramped area known as Gaza with a blockade to prevent them from leaving in mass either! :rolleyes:



You're right, the UN doesn't go far enough with Israel, which does engage in collective punishment, uses chemical weapons against civilians, and is actively practicing ethnic cleansing in the West Bank.

Ironically, had Israel practiced even more ethnic cleansing back in 1948-1949 by conquering the West Bank and then ethnically cleansing it, then no one right now would have actually had a problem with either this ethnic cleansing or the current Israeli rule over the West Bank. So, ironically, Israel's current predicament is the result of it being too nice in the past.
 

WolfBear

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Why's being pro-gun or pro-life pr anti-CRT a requirement if you want to get anywhere as a republican? It's a big tent party that lumps a bunch of different interest groups together, and candidates try to appeal to all of them in order to get votes.

I could ask the same in reverse for progressives, why opposing Israel is seen as a litmus test for them.

If you're not anti-CRT, then you're Woke, and why exactly should BOTH OF the US's main political parties be dominated by or at least infiltrated by Wokes?

BTW, @History Learner, would you approve of an Israeli-Palestinian deal along the lines of the 2003 Geneva Initiative, possibly with minor adjustments in favor of Israel (such as allowing Israel to keep Har Homa, Givat Hamatos, and the Latrun Salient)? I'd be willing to give the Palestinian state extra land in Gaza (in more than a 1:1 swap if necessary, to deal with the different land quality) as compensation for this.
 

History Learner

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If you're not anti-CRT, then you're Woke, and why exactly should BOTH OF the US's main political parties be dominated by or at least infiltrated by Wokes?

BTW, @History Learner, would you approve of an Israeli-Palestinian deal along the lines of the 2003 Geneva Initiative, possibly with minor adjustments in favor of Israel (such as allowing Israel to keep Har Homa, Givat Hamatos, and the Latrun Salient)? I'd be willing to give the Palestinian state extra land in Gaza (in more than a 1:1 swap if necessary, to deal with the different land quality) as compensation for this.

Do you have a map handy that closely follows this? I'd like to see it before passing any judgements, given the "plan" we saw under the Trump Administration lol.
 

WolfBear

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Do you have a map handy that closely follows this? I'd like to see it before passing any judgements, given the "plan" we saw under the Trump Administration lol.

The Trump Plan was a bunch of baloney.

Here's the 2003 Geneva Initiative Plan:

Geneva-Permanent-Borders-Map.jpg


In the Jerusalem area:

Jerusalem-Borders.jpg


In the Old City of Jerusalem:

Old-City-of-Jerusalem-.jpg


Looks fairly reasonable if you ask me, though I'd tweak it to make it slightly more pro-Israel.
 

History Learner

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The Trump Plan was a bunch of baloney.

Here's the 2003 Geneva Initiative Plan:

Geneva-Permanent-Borders-Map.jpg


In the Jerusalem area:

Jerusalem-Borders.jpg


In the Old City of Jerusalem:

Old-City-of-Jerusalem-.jpg


Looks fairly reasonable if you ask me, though I'd tweak it to make it slightly more pro-Israel.

What was their stance on Palestinian neighborhoods in Jerusalem, religious access to Holy sites, etc. First time I've heard of this plan, I'm more familiar with the ones the U.S. undertook to create. Usually my default position is 1967 with international administration of Jerusalem.
 

WolfBear

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What was their stance on Palestinian neighborhoods in Jerusalem, religious access to Holy sites, etc. First time I've heard of this plan, I'm more familiar with the ones the U.S. undertook to create. Usually my default position is 1967 with international administration of Jerusalem.
The Palestinian neighborhoods in Jerusalem would go to the Palestinian Arab state. Access to the holy sites would be available for everyone regardless of faith, I think.

Also, AFAIK, the Arabs in 1948-1949 said that the borders that Israel got back then were armistice lines rather than permanent borders. Ironically, this screwed themselves over in the end.
 

History Learner

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The Palestinian neighborhoods in Jerusalem would go to the Palestinian Arab state. Access to the holy sites would be available for everyone regardless of faith, I think.

Also, AFAIK, the Arabs in 1948-1949 said that the borders that Israel got back then were armistice lines rather than permanent borders. Ironically, this screwed themselves over in the end.

What would the resource constraints be like, especially with regards to water and would the Israelis be required to repatriate the rest of their settlers?
 

History Learner

Well-known member
For water:


The rest of the plan annexes:


And Yes, I think that Israel would have to repatriate the rest of its settlers.

Tentatively, I could endorse such a proposal but I would want it put to a vote in Palestine as well as a strong enforcement mechanism. The explosion in Israeli settlers since the 1990s is a serious issue that upsets me, and contradicts their previous obligations.
 

WolfBear

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Tentatively, I could endorse such a proposal but I would want it put to a vote in Palestine as well as a strong enforcement mechanism. The explosion in Israeli settlers since the 1990s is a serious issue that upsets me, and contradicts their previous obligations.

Yeah, that makes sense. And honestly, I see no point in having Israel build settlements in parts of the West Bank that it doesn't intend to keep anyway. And as tempting as the idea of the Jordan Valley as Israel's living space could be, I think that the Palestinians need that living space more. And honestly, Gaza needs to expand a bit as well. Not enough living space there.
 

History Learner

Well-known member
Yeah, that makes sense. And honestly, I see no point in having Israel build settlements in parts of the West Bank that it doesn't intend to keep anyway. And as tempting as the idea of the Jordan Valley as Israel's living space could be, I think that the Palestinians need that living space more. And honestly, Gaza needs to expand a bit as well. Not enough living space there.

I know you're Jewish and have ties to Israel, so I understand your prospective.
 

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