What do you think the US's policy towards Israel should be?

[LordsFire]

Polling. Even among young Evangelicals, neutral/Pro-Palestine is the most common position increasingly.

Huh. First I've heard of this, and I've never seen anything myself that supports it. Got any sources on that?

 

[History Learner]

Huh. First I've heard of this, and I've never seen anything myself that supports it. Got any sources on that?

Times of Israel: Support for Israel among young US evangelical Christians drops sharply

 

[LordsFire]

Times of Israel: Support for Israel among young US evangelical Christians drops sharply

I was leaning towards confused acceptance, until I got to the 'over half voted Biden over Trump' part. They rather obviously sampled a massively disproportionately left-wing part of Evangelicals, which are generally a very small portion of Evangelicals.

Given that I saw a lot more Evangelicals willing to vote Trump in 2020 than in 2016, I don't see any other logical reason for the sudden massive shift. It's not like the Palestinians stopped making rocket attacks between 2018 and 2021, or the Israeli policy on dealing with Hamas and the like meaningfully changed either.

 

[TheRejectionist]

I would have described myself as a Zionist-phile not long ago, due to my positive Western-like experience in Tel Aviv.

I had also LESS than pleasant experience with a few Israelis.

There Is the possibility my paternal grandfather or his mother was jewish.

So I am biased in both directions.

As a non-Israeli and non-American, I rather have neutral relations with Italy. Tech for Money at best.

That Is because Israeli foreign policy tend to affect direct Italy and Syria, which I have a good friend from there.

So long as Israel and US policies dont affect the Mediterranean countries I am neutral, but neither Israel or the US have a policy of live and let live so I am begrugdingly cautious and pissed about both.

 

[TheRejectionist]

I would have described myself as a Zionist-phile not long ago, due to my positive Western-like experience in Tel Aviv.

I had also LESS than pleasant experience with a few Israelis.

There Is the possibility my paternal grandfather or his mother was jewish.

So I am biased in both directions.

As a non-Israeli and non-American, I rather have neutral relations with Italy. Tech for Money at best.

That Is because Israeli foreign policy tend to affect direct Italy and Syria, which I have a good friend from there.

So long as Israel and US policies dont affect the Mediterranean countries I am neutral, but neither Israel or the US have a policy of live and let live so I am begrugdingly cautious and pissed about both.

And Brazil+Spain+Portugal*

 

[Battlegrinder]

The military industrial complex is gonna be just fine without it but if you see it as that important, why not use it directly in our own defense budget without the third party in the form of Israel acting as a siphon and thus harming our own security?

I don't see it as important, the government does, and you don't quite seem to be grasping how this works. It's not "ok, let's give Israel a few billion so they can buy F35s instead of buying them for the airforce" It's "we've already bought all the F35s we're going to, let's let Israel buy a few more to help Lockheed's quarterly figures".

Why do we suddenly have to be consistent in sanctions when we are not already?

Because intentionally acting in a morally inconsistent manner is bad?

As for causes, it's really simple. We can cite how Israel has been selling U.S. military technology to China since the 1990s, how they have conducted significant espionage against us, and finally we can cite how their actions have directly contributed to the loss of security by tying us to their crimes.

The first two aren't applicable, as the text clearly states that the US must be threatened by the terrorist activity in question, you legally cannot declare someone a terrorist because they spy on you and also assassinated some unrelated guy, they have to actually target you with the terrorism.

Point 3 is likewise inapplicable, as Bid Laden's grievances are directed at far more than Mossad (which he doesn't even mention), presuming he is even being honest here vs just writing propaganda, which seems possible. We know from other sources the root of his discontent was the deployment of US forces to defend the Saudis during the Gulf War, which was unrelated to Israel.

No, it's completely legal and the U.S. does this from time to time for other entities.

It is legal to break up a non-profit organization, yes. It is not legal to do so for arbitrarily reasons.

AIPAC, the ADL and others all fit the criteria for unregistered foreign lobbyists and because of that can be dismantled. Back in the 1990s, the ADL was actually raided by the FBI for their spying activities.

There is no such thing as a legally defined "unregistered foreign lobbyist". The only term that US law recognizes is "foreign agent", which AIPAC does not meet. Foreign agents must act under the direct control and at the orders of a foreign power, which those groups do not do.

No, you can and again, we do this quite often because the Foreign Agents act also applies to individuals.

I think you're missing the point a bit, the argument wasn't "you can't make people register, only organizations", it was "you can't make people register as agents because they're no longer agents".

What is it with people like you and this maniacal obsession with the foreign agent registration act, anyway?

 

[Husky_Khan]

I guess a meme would relay the point more effectively.

 

[Cherico]

I guess a meme would relay the point more effectively.

people were god damned naive and thought china would be an actual democracy right now.

Just because they had more cash in their pockets it was the 'end of history' thing is history never ends.

 

[Husky_Khan]

I was leaning towards confused acceptance, until I got to the 'over half voted Biden over Trump' part. They rather obviously sampled a massively disproportionately left-wing part of Evangelicals, which are generally a very small portion of Evangelicals.

Given that I saw a lot more Evangelicals willing to vote Trump in 2020 than in 2016, I don't see any other logical reason for the sudden massive shift. It's not like the Palestinians stopped making rocket attacks between 2018 and 2021, or the Israeli policy on dealing with Hamas and the like meaningfully changed either.

The Washington Post did a poll of young Evangelicals back in 2018 where 69% of Young Evangelicals supported Israel. Supposedly according to this new data, that somehow HALVED to 34% in just three years.

The Washington Post’s article covering this same survey data provides age-specific figures: just under 69 percent of young evangelicals 18–29 years old supported Israel in 2018, with 5.6 percent supporting Palestine and 25 percent supporting neither.

It turns out the new poll likely asked more liberal and progressive young evangelicals as well as those of a more diverse racial background.

The 2021 racial breakdown sees about a 14 percentage point shift in the polled demographic away from White respondents toward minority respondents. While we cannot say exactly how much of the supposed gap this 14 percentage point change could explain, the Washington Post notes that the researchers “found wide rifts in this year’s young evangelicals survey” between these racial subgroups’ answers, suggesting that the elusive 36 percentage point gap (that is, a gap reflecting the actual change in young evangelical opinion at large) could very well be in the 20s instead.

The polling itself limited options that were asked of the respondents as well...

The central question of the 2018 poll was, “Where do you put your support?” followed by five choices. Between two pro-Israel options and two pro-Palestinian options sat a supposedly neutral option that read, “Support Neither.” Researchers removed an initial “I Don’t Know” option that would have taken about 14 percent of responses. This change left anyone unwilling to voice partisan support in a misanthropic-sounding middle camp.

Similarly, the 2021 poll question reads, “In relation to the Israeli-Palestinian dispute, where do you place your support?” Three tiers of both pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian support follow, separated by an option to “Support Neither.” But it is hardly likely that all who selected the latter option were simply apathetic or ambivalent about the situation. They simply had no way to voice support for both.

Are Young Evangelicals Experiencing a Change of Heart on Israel? - Providence

Last month, a disturbing headline from The Times of Israel proclaimed, “Support for Israel among young US evangelical Christians drops sharply — survey.”

providencemag.com

The article has its own conclusions as well for what is still a drop in support with Israel, most of it having to do with the fact that American Academia, Media and Institutions have often tied Muslim and Palestinian issues with that of Race, especially in the wake of the George Floyd Race Riots back in 2020.

 

[Battlegrinder]

The article has its own conclusions as well for what is still a drop in support with Israel, most of it having to do with the fact that American Academia, Media and Institutions have often tied Muslim and Palestinian issues with that of Race, especially in the wake of the George Floyd Race Riots back in 2020.

Yeah, that would have been my guess. Americans suddenly concluding that supporting Israel is no longer in our best interest doesn't quite fits the facts, as nothing about the two sides or region has changed all that much lately.

Americans being suddenly propagandized into changing opinions about who we should support fits it a little better, particularly since the left has gotten a lot louder about this lately and a lot less rational about it.

 

[King Arts]

Does it matter evangelicals aren’t Christian, so why should we talk about their support or non support for Israel?

 

[LordsFire]

Does it matter evangelicals aren’t Christian, so why should we talk about their support or non support for Israel?

...why do you say Evanggelicals aren't Christian?

 

[King Arts]

...why do you say Evanggelicals aren't Christian?

Two reasons the first is prosperity theology. Basically the exact opposite of what Jesus taught. The second when I talked to some evangelicals about why they support Israel(it’s ok to support Israel for normal reasons it’s a democracy, good for our real political interests, whatever. But theological reasons are wrong.)
They basically just used a brain dead interpretation of God will bless those who bless Abraham’s seed and curse those who curse it. Basically saying Israel and Jews are gods chosen people.

 

[Cherico]

Two reasons the first is prosperity theology. Basically the exact opposite of what Jesus taught. The second when I talked to some evangelicals about why they support Israel(it’s ok to support Israel for normal reasons it’s a democracy, good for our real political interests, whatever. But theological reasons are wrong.)
They basically just used a brain dead interpretation of God will bless those who bless Abraham’s seed and curse those who curse it. Basically saying Israel and Jews are gods chosen people.

I honestly belive that we jews are gods chosen people and wish he would choose some one else for a change.

 

[Battlegrinder]

Two reasons the first is prosperity theology. Basically the exact opposite of what Jesus taught. The second when I talked to some evangelicals about why they support Israel(it’s ok to support Israel for normal reasons it’s a democracy, good for our real political interests, whatever. But theological reasons are wrong.)
They basically just used a brain dead interpretation of God will bless those who bless Abraham’s seed and curse those who curse it. Basically saying Israel and Jews are gods chosen people.

Prosperity stuff is neither exclusive to evangelicals nor is it universal within evangelical churches (nor is dubious theology in general a uniquely evangelical issue).

Jews as God's chosen people is straight from the Bible, Deuteronomy 7:6 for example. There's certainly debate as to what that means today and for us as Christians, but it's absolutely a biblical principle.

 

[King Arts]

I honestly belive that we jews are gods chosen people and wish he would choose some one else for a change.

Lol of course as a Jew you would believe that Jews are gods chosen. Just like Muslims think they are gods chosen, and Christians would. I’m not being a brat or envious or trying to insult Jews.I’m just saying that as a Christian you can’t claim that Jews are still Gods chosen as that would conflict with basic tenants of Christianity. Unless you have a very unique definition of gods chosen.

 

[TheRejectionist]

Does it matter evangelicals aren’t Christian, so why should we talk about their support or non support for Israel?

In my case, I have to think about it, since they are the majority denomination among non-Catholic in Brazil.

 

[TheRejectionist]

I honestly belive that we jews are gods chosen people and wish he would choose some one else for a change.

I don't think any culture has a deathwish considering your luck.

 

[King Arts]

Prosperity stuff is neither exclusive to evangelicals nor is it universal within evangelical churches (nor is dubious theology in general a uniquely evangelical issue).

Jews as God's chosen people is straight from the Bible, Deuteronomy 7:6 for example. There's certainly debate as to what that means today and for us as Christians, but it's absolutely a biblical principle.

Yes in the Old Testament that applied. But if you are Christian you also have to look at the New Testament. This is a pretty big topic that can have a few avenues so I will make a new thread so this one isn’t derailed. Where should I put it the philosophy and essays or news and politics? Also what other groups espouse prosperity gospel?

 

[Battlegrinder]

Where should I put it the philosophy and essays or news and politics?

Philosophy.

Also what other groups espouse prosperity gospel?

It pops up from time to time in many US churches. Prosperity theology is at It's core a response to the sort of rich lifestyle that's common in the US and that isn't always in particular alignment with Christianity, and people want something to try and rationalize thier way past that.