Science What are your thoughts on so called Light Pollution

[Sailor.X]

I am posting this thread because I have been hearing people all over the internet say Light Pollution causes this and Light Pollution causes that. And now some cities have began to reduce the amount of lights they have in their areas. All fine and dandy right...... Wrong. Now when I travel through a few cities I can't properly see the exits for roads. I can't see some pedestrians because they are now in the shadows. And some of them are using the reduced light to commit crimes more easy. And here is the kicker when you get 3 miles outside of said cities it is pitch black. You don't even know you are near a city due to the dark woods. So I am wondering how has Light Pollution become a thing?

 

[posh-goofiness]

Er. Do you mean for stargazing or something? Because yeah, in that context it's a problem. Not enough to pass laws about it, though.

 

[Sailor.X]

I have seen posts on the internet of people saying it is affecting the mating habits of insect........... The ones in my area didn't get the memo because it is a Bug City in my neck of the woods.

 

[Bacle]

Light pollution is not just a 'cannot see the stars' issue, it affects the overall circadian rhythms of the population in an area, as well as contributes to the 'heat island effect' that can cause cities in general to by hotter than the surrounding areas.

Now, when it comes to how to handle it, the simplest way to maintain public safety while reducing upwards aiming light is to simply put in zoning about outdoor lights need to have hoods and be aimed down so their light goes to the areas that need it, but do not leak amibient light upwards where it is wasted and creates light pollution.

Also, in parts of the major urban areas, it reflects off smog to create a large urban glow at night that does not drop off for a fair distance outside town.

Light pollution isn't a huge issue, and mostly is just important if you want to put telescopes nearby, but a lot of people in major cities can barely see high magnitude stars throught the amount of light in the sky.

 

[posh-goofiness]

Light pollution is not just a 'cannot see the stars' issue, it affects the overall circadian rhythms of the population in an area,

I don't believe this. At all. Close your blinds. If there's anything effecting urbanites circadian rhythms it's that they keep looking at their phones without a blue light filter late into the night.

as well as contributes to the 'heat island effect' that can cause cities in general to by hotter than the surrounding areas.

Now, when it comes to how to handle it, the simplest way to maintain public safety while reducing upwards aiming light is to simply put in zoning about outdoor lights need to have hoods and be aimed down so their light goes to the areas that need it, but do not leak amibient light upwards where it is wasted and creates light pollution.

This makes no sense either. If you shine light upward there isn't any heat sink to keep the captured energy. Air is a terrible conductive medium for thermal energy. Pointing the light downward is going to store more thermal energy than pointing upward.

 

[Bear Ribs]

And here is the kicker when you get 3 miles outside of said cities it is pitch black.

This is Phoenix, AZ from 55 miles away at night.

 

[Sailor.X]

This is Phoenix, AZ from 55 miles away at night.

Deserts reflect light more than Forests. Same with Arctic areas for reflecting a lot of light. I live in the Rural South. You get out into the deep country away from towns. you don't see nothing but dark and maybe someone's yard light if you are near their homestead.

 

[LordSunhawk]

I would say that it's a conditional problem. Where it's a problem, it's a major problem.

Note Phoenix is a poor example, the city is so massively sprawled out that you'll have that glow regardless

 

[The Whispering Monk]

It's humanity. We've been creating a way to keep the darkness at bay for centuries. Light provides clarity and helps prevent bad actors from feeling comfortable. If you don't like city lights blocking your stars...move. Don't tell me we've got to re-engineer our society and cities b/c the next version of hippies hate too much light.

Want to sleep. Turn off your lights and put up black-out curtains.

What actual problems are caused by the light that are actually provable and actually cause some form of material harm?

 

[Sailor.X]

It's humanity. We've been creating a way to keep the darkness at bay for centuries. Light provides clarity and helps prevent bad actors from feeling comfortable. If you don't like city lights blocking your stars...move. Don't tell me we've got to re-engineer our society and cities b/c the next version of hippies hate too much light.

Want to sleep. Turn off your lights and put up black-out curtains.

What actual problems are caused by the light that are actually provable and actually cause some form of material harm?

Tell me about it. I almost hit a guy in North Charleston at 4 in the morning because I literally could not see him. That section of Remount Road was so poorly lit that it was like he appeared out of nowhere in front of my car. Had it been 2 years ago. That section would have been well lit and I would have seen him way before I got to that section. More accidents are happening now because of light ordinances in cities.

 

[Bear Ribs]

Deserts reflect light more than Forests. Same with Arctic areas for reflecting a lot of light. I live in the Rural South. You get out into the deep country away from towns. you don't see nothing but dark and maybe someone's yard light if you are near their homestead.

Untrue. You may not be able to directly see the city light itself if a tree is in the way, but Sky Glow is increased by the haze and clouds of forested lands, which reflect light pollution around instead of letting it go into space the way deserts do. Deserts have the least effects from light pollution due to lack of atmospheric water reflecting the light back towards us. I also live in the deep south, and have been an amateur astronomer since I was 12, I'm well aware of how much harder it is to see the stars these days than when I was younger.

What actual problems are caused by the light that are actually provable and actually cause some form of material harm?

Algae blooms are associated with light pollution because zooplankton that eats the algae and keeps it from blooming are light-averse. This has killed many people, releases large amounts of toxins, destroys sealife, and renders beaches into dead zones.

Coral Reefs use the phases of the moon as a signal in their reproductive cycle. Light pollution prevents them from knowing when to spawn and is directly linked to loss of reefs and disappearing corals.

Sky Glow in particular futzes with the human reproductive system. Increased light pollution causes reduced birth weight, shortened gestational length, and premature births. Women also tend to have more irregular cycles and ovarian problems when exposed to increased light pollution. There's also some evidence it kills the human sex drive and is associated with the modern reduced birth rates though I can't find that study offhand.

Of course light pollution also futzes with adult human health. Excessive light exposure in tests on mice Mice showed increased onset of osteoporosis, loss of muscle mass, and inflammatory cytokines. Human tests haven't been done yet, that I'm aware of, but the same symptoms in humans are strongly correlated with light pollution which is about as good a proof as it gets without full, and very difficult, studies.

 

[Sailor.X]

Untrue. You may not be able to directly see the city light itself if a tree is in the way, but Sky Glow is increased by the haze and clouds of forested lands, which reflect light pollution around instead of letting it go into space the way deserts do. Deserts have the least effects from light pollution due to lack of atmospheric water reflecting the light back towards us. I also live in the deep south, and have been an amateur astronomer since I was 12, I'm well aware of how much harder it is to see the stars these days than when I was younger.


Algae blooms are associated with light pollution because zooplankton that eats the algae and keeps it from blooming are light-averse. This has killed many people, releases large amounts of toxins, destroys sealife, and renders beaches into dead zones.

Coral Reefs use the phases of the moon as a signal in their reproductive cycle. Light pollution prevents them from knowing when to spawn and is directly linked to loss of reefs and disappearing corals.

Sky Glow in particular futzes with the human reproductive system. Increased light pollution causes reduced birth weight, shortened gestational length, and premature births. Women also tend to have more irregular cycles and ovarian problems when exposed to increased light pollution. There's also some evidence it kills the human sex drive and is associated with the modern reduced birth rates though I can't find that study offhand.

Of course light pollution also futzes with adult human health. Excessive light exposure in tests on mice Mice showed increased onset of osteoporosis, loss of muscle mass, and inflammatory cytokines. Human tests haven't been done yet, that I'm aware of, but the same symptoms in humans are strongly correlated with light pollution which is about as good a proof as it gets without full, and very difficult, studies.

I live exact 50 miles from the Columbia area and the Charleston Area. I have no sky glow from either. Light surfaces reflect light better than dark surfaces and Deserts are light surfaces.

 

[Bear Ribs]

I live exact 50 miles from the Columbia area and the Charleston Area. I have no sky glow from either. Light surfaces reflect light better than dark surfaces and Deserts are light surfaces.

"My rando unprovable anecdote totally overrides all common sense and known science, as based on my faulty understanding of how the terms I'm using work."

Yeah, that area is Bortle Scale 4-6 which is some fairly bad levels of sky glow. It's always possible you're nestled in a specific set of mountains that happen to provide more protection, but that would be a unique situation to you, not everybody. It's far more likely, absent you having an SQM reading, that like somebody who's grown up in the inner city next to a factory can't tell how filthy the air is, you're simply used to how much sky glow there is in the area and have no idea what you're missing in the night sky.

 

[Sailor.X]

"My rando unprovable anecdote totally overrides all common sense and known science, as based on my faulty understanding of how the terms I'm using work."

Yeah, that area is Bortle Scale 4-6 which is some fairly bad levels of sky glow. It's always possible you're nestled in a specific set of mountains that happen to provide more protection, but that would be a unique situation to you, not everybody. It's far more likely, absent you having an SQM reading, that like somebody who's grown up in the inner city next to a factory can't tell how filthy the air is, you're simply used to how much sky glow there is in the area and have no idea what you're missing in the night sky.

If you have never been to Sea you have never seen the true night sky. And that includes our land locked ancestors who first spotted the constellations. Yes even them. Only at Sea far away from land can you see it all.

 

[Bear Ribs]

If you have never been to Sea you have never seen the true night sky. And that includes our land locked ancestors who first spotted the constellations. Yes even them. Only at Sea far away from land can you see it all.

Nice deflection.

 

[Sailor.X]

Nice deflection.

Stated fact.

 

[Bear Ribs]

Stated fact.

No, you're just running away from the actual discussion by deflecting elsewhere to the ocean suddenly, it has nothing to do with what you quoted and certainly does nothing to prove your assertion that there's no light pollution, much less your absurd claim that cities don't produce any light pollution three miles away.

 

[Sailor.X]

No, you're just running away from the actual discussion by deflecting elsewhere to the ocean suddenly, it has nothing to do with what you quoted and certainly does nothing to prove your assertion that there's no light pollution, much less your absurd claim that cities don't produce any light pollution three miles away.

If I am not mistaken you said Light Pollution is affecting Coral Reefs. Well are out to see you actually do have Coral Reefs too. And you can see the full sky around them. Also so called light Pollution is not as bad as it is being made out to be. What you point to as light being the cause. I can easily point to regular old Air and Water Pollution being the real cause of health problems in Wildlife and people. And if you have not been paying attention as of late a lot of cities have switched to LED lights. Which if you look at how they work don't cover as much area as the old lights. Hence why city streets are actually darker than they use to be. So yes you won't see much of a glow in some areas. Do I have to take a photo just outside of Jedburg to prove this to you.

 

[Bear Ribs]

If I am not mistaken you said Light Pollution is affecting Coral Reefs. Well are out to see you actually do have Coral Reefs too. And you can see the full sky around them. Also so called light Pollution is not as bad as it is being made out to be. What you point to as light being the cause. I can easily point to regular old Air and Water Pollution being the real cause of health problems in Wildlife and people. And if you have not been paying attention as of late a lot of cities have switched to LED lights. Which if you look at how they work don't cover as much area as the old lights. Hence why city streets are actually darker than they use to be. So yes you won't see much of a glow in some areas. Do I have to take a photo just outside of Jedburg to prove this to you.

LED Bulbs Are Making Light Pollution Much Worse

Though energy-efficient, bright rays from LEDs are contributing to a host of human and animal problems.

www.nationalgeographic.com

The unfortunate side effect of LED lighting

LEDs have become so ubiquitous that we’re lighting everything, at a cost

www.theverge.com

LED lamps save energy and money, but increase light pollution | IGB

www.igb-berlin.de

You've got absolutely nothing except claims you keep having to retreat from when you're proven wrong. You haven't posted a shred of evidence and you keep making claims that are blatantly false. You've retreated from "There's no light pollution three miles from town" to "Well I can't see any from fifty miles away" to "Ignore all the proof I was wrong, look, deflect to the oceans" to "LEDs do the exact opposite of what actual studies show they do."

 

[Sailor.X]

LED Bulbs Are Making Light Pollution Much Worse

Though energy-efficient, bright rays from LEDs are contributing to a host of human and animal problems.

www.nationalgeographic.com

The unfortunate side effect of LED lighting

LEDs have become so ubiquitous that we’re lighting everything, at a cost

www.theverge.com

LED lamps save energy and money, but increase light pollution | IGB

www.igb-berlin.de

You've got absolutely nothing except claims you keep having to retreat from when you're proven wrong. You haven't posted a shred of evidence and you keep making claims that are blatantly false. You've retreated from "There's no light pollution three miles from town" to "Well I can't see any from fifty miles away" to "Ignore all the proof I was wrong, look, deflect to the oceans" to "LEDs do the exact opposite of what actual studies show they do."

Your sources are suspect. These are the same people that were championing all the Global Warming/ Climate change data that never came to pass. And I take everything from National Geographic with a grain of salt given their track record. So no try again.