Battletech Welcome to the Jungle

The Unicorn

Well-known member
The Flashman is an obvious contender for an upgrade, but it’s in the unfortunate position of being less popular than priority designs like the Lyran favorite Zeus but less expendable than a lemon like the Sentinel. They’ll get around to it, but not this upgrade cycle.
Haven't really been following all the discussion, but it sounds like you have good reasons for why nothing the Lyrans are going to do as far as production and upgrades is an idiotic mistake, but it seems to me there should be a bunch of mistakes. Can't really offer any good suggestions to what the mistakes could be, but they're large enough there should be a bunch of mistakes.
 

Speaker4thesilent

Crazed Deplorable
Haven't really been following all the discussion, but it sounds like you have good reasons for why nothing the Lyrans are going to do as far as production and upgrades is an idiotic mistake, but it seems to me there should be a bunch of mistakes. Can't really offer any good suggestions to what the mistakes could be, but they're large enough there should be a bunch of mistakes.
Oh, there are mistakes coming, just very few substantial mistakes. Many of the 3050 ‘upgrades’ in canon weren’t just mistakes, they were outright dumb. Any competent engineer should have been able to tell they were dumb, and the fact that they were allowed into production is almost SOD-breaking in the sheer level of dumb. I’m attempting to make mistakes that are in-line with doctrine. For the Lyrans, that tends to mean things like less than ideal Fast Assaults and issues with ASFs.
 

Yellowhammer

Well-known member
Fair enough. Of course with the need for fast heavies now being a thing I believe that getting that line fixed will be something Defiance works on since they have the tech to make a version even better than the original albeit they probably won't be getting it fully online for awhile.

As for why I like the Flashman well to put it bluntly it's a solid mech

Also the SW-era Flashman is 4/6, NOT 5/8. They had to downtech by dropping the 375XL for a 300 SFE (and also it has heating issues with only 23 SHS for all the lasers).

It's solid, yes, but the Lyrans have plenty of other solid 4/6 designs in production to compete in that role (Battlemaster, Zeus, Warhammer, Archer, Crusader, Thunderbolt...)

in the 3SW era, the only 60+ ton designs moving 5/8 are the Dragon, Charger, and Quickdraw. Those are all DCMS mainstays.
 

Dreth

Member
Oh, there are mistakes coming, just very few substantial mistakes.

I would think current planned upgrades being inspired by either Royal mechs or stuff from Catachan would help prevent that. The current upgrade list is based on what is available right now. I would expect a considerable number of the next wave to be putting royal variants back into production when things like xl engines and ER weapons are being reliably produced. Mitigating a current weakness (like just throwing on better armor or DHS) or reintroducing proven designs helps avoid many of the really bad mistakes.
 

The Unicorn

Well-known member
Oh, there are mistakes coming, just very few substantial mistakes. Many of the 3050 ‘upgrades’ in canon weren’t just mistakes, they were outright dumb. Any competent engineer should have been able to tell they were dumb, and the fact that they were allowed into production is almost SOD-breaking in the sheer level of dumb. I’m attempting to make mistakes that are in-line with doctrine. For the Lyrans, that tends to mean things like less than ideal Fast Assaults and issues with ASFs.
That makes sense, however my point is that in RL with large organizations you get SoD breaking stupidities. Granted in a competent, well managed organization those tend to be fairly rare, but they do happen.

@The Unicorn
I'm sure there will be flaws, but It's a lot harder with the Archon herself working to a specific end.
Not really. The Archon is, when it comes down to it, only one person and most of her time needs to be taken up with running of the entire empire. She can take some time occasionally to focus on pet projects, but generally any decisions on what projects get funded would need to be done on a much lower level, with her getting at best a summary, and most likely not having time to read that unless there's some disaster involved.
 

Speaker4thesilent

Crazed Deplorable
That makes sense, however my point is that in RL with large organizations you get SoD breaking stupidities. Granted in a competent, well managed organization those tend to be fairly rare, but they do happen.
Yeah, you do occasionally get really big problems, but not normally when you've just raked some of the biggest troublemakers over the coals.
Not really. The Archon is, when it comes down to it, only one person and most of her time needs to be taken up with running of the entire empire. She can take some time occasionally to focus on pet projects, but generally any decisions on what projects get funded would need to be done on a much lower level, with her getting at best a summary, and most likely not having time to read that unless there's some disaster involved.
Erm. This is major military R&D where several of the companies involved have accepted guaranteed loans to be able to do the projects. The Archon is definitely going to be checking in on them. Every day? No. Probably not even every month. But every quarter? Damn straight! And if shit gets too far off the rails, she ain't gonna be happy about it.

Also, see above. THI and CMW Just had major scandals a decade ago and only just got let out of the doghouse in time for Lockheed CBM to be shoved inside, and both the new CEOs are noted to be competent and hard-working.

Red Devil is specifically Sir Not Invited To This Party.

DefHes is essentially beyond suspicion with Brewer at the helm, and TharHes might as well be the Archon's personal fiefdom.

Olivetti and CAC are both in nose-to-the-grindstone mode trying to keep ahead of their better-established competitors.

Shipil has been in financial distress for 2/3rds of forever and this is their best shot at a way out.

The Archon has personally handled both StarCorp Industries and MacEnroe Motors. Only one was handled on screen, but both were shown the carrot and the stick and MacEnroe Motors is, if anything, even more motivated to not fuck this up than SCI because MM is literally chump change compared to anyone else getting a copy of the Catachan Core. They don't even make BattleMechs anymore at this point, just Combat Vehicles, and now they're being given a chance to put Arcturus back on the map as something other than a used-to-was. It's almost like Katrina and Simon Johnson plotted this out very fucking carefully over the course of weeks-months and used every bit of leverage they could manage to scrape up to ensure that this isn't going to turn out to be a disaster. The literal only corporation that Katrina does not have absolutely over a barrel is Bowie Industries.

She is expending political capitol on this. She is going to make sure she sees a solid return.
 
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Speaker4thesilent

Crazed Deplorable
And Katrina still has leverage over Bowie industries in that unless the Chippewa gets improved it's not going to purchased by the LCAF once the current contract ends
Lyran ASF numbers are low enough that she can’t even threaten that. She needs every ASF she can beg for, borrow, or steal. What she can do is hint that the Rapier seems like a much superior option and that Bowie would lose prestige if the Rapier became the preferred LCAF heavy ASF platform. Oh, and please ensure that your new Chippewa variant includes [insert list here].
 

Satorious

Active member
Lyran ASF numbers are low enough that she can’t even threaten that. She needs every ASF she can beg for, borrow, or steal. What she can do is hint that the Rapier seems like a much superior option and that Bowie would lose prestige if the Rapier became the preferred LCAF heavy ASF platform. Oh, and please ensure that your new Chippewa variant includes [insert list here].
Such as not magically blow up/catch fire/melt the pilot if someone within 100 meters of the cockpit even thinks of pulling the Alpha Strike trigger? That and point out that she is willing to drop a ASF (the Lucifier) if better options come out in great enough numbers? Do we have any word on the Vulcan ASF Weber will be making to complement the Rapier/ kill the Lucifer?
 

Knowledgeispower

Ah I love the smell of missile spam in the morning
Such as not magically blow up/catch fire/melt the pilot if someone within 100 meters of the cockpit even thinks of pulling the Alpha Strike trigger? That and point out that she is willing to drop a ASF (the Lucifier) if better options come out in great enough numbers? Do we have any word on the Vulcan ASF Weber will be making to complement the Rapier/ kill the Lucifer?
Speaking of the Lucifer a good thing to retool the lines for it would be getting the rights to Corsair via the FedCom Alliance and copious amounts of money and then use to tech available to significantly upgrade it
 

Speaker4thesilent

Crazed Deplorable
Do we have any word on the Vulcan ASF Weber will be making to complement the Rapier/ kill the Lucifer?
The only information I’ve released at this point is that it will be built based on both the original and the upteched schematics, and that the people in charge want either more ERPPCs, more Gauss Rifles, or both.

I, of course, know what they’re going to do with it, so if anyone else guesses they get an internet cookie and bragging rights forever.
 

Knowledgeispower

Ah I love the smell of missile spam in the morning
The only information I’ve released at this point is that it will be built based on both the original and the upteched schematics, and that the people in charge want either more ERPPCs, more Gauss Rifles, or both.

I, of course, know what they’re going to do with it, so if anyone else guesses they get an internet cookie and bragging rights forever.
Hmmm given that the fully updated Rapier will probably have a pair of ERPPCs I'm leaning towards the use of Gauss Rifles. Also question would the extra available weight be worth the cost to make the design have a XLFE 240 since the CAC will be making those for Centurion refit kits anyways? If not it just costs my variant of the Vulcan some armor(and if I wanted 24 volleys of Gauss ammo instead of 20 1 tons of ammo) and given it has more than the Royal Stuka by a decent amount as is that's not the end of the world
 
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Satorious

Active member
Hmmm given that the fully updated Rapier will probably have a pair of ERPPCs I'm leaning towards the use of Gauss Rifles. Also question would the extra available weight be worth the cost to make the design have a XLFE 240 since the CAC will be making those for Centurion refit kits anyways? If not it just costs my variant of the Vulcan some armor(and if I wanted 24 volleys of Gauss ammo instead of 20 1 tons of ammo) and given it has more than the Royal Stuka by a decent amount as is that's not the end of the world
If they can fix the production value of the Gauss line that might work. Problem is most of CAC ERPPC production is spoken for and building a new line is not cheep and the Gauss Line is a bit of a lemon at the moment. Now if it is a gravity issue then moving the line to another line planet might work but that opens issues of protecting the line. the Rapier has a AC20 as its anti dropship weapon right? Could the Vulcan pull the Lucifier trick of massed LRM's I think was mentioned by Weber.
 

Knowledgeispower

Ah I love the smell of missile spam in the morning
If they can fix the production value of the Gauss line that might work. Problem is most of CAC ERPPC production is spoken for and building a new line is not cheep and the Gauss Line is a bit of a lemon at the moment. Now if it is a gravity issue then moving the line to another line planet might work but that opens issues of protecting the line. the Rapier has a AC20 as its anti dropship weapon right? Could the Vulcan pull the Lucifier trick of massed LRM's I think was mentioned by Weber.
I mean sure the Vulcan could do the LRM trick like the Lucifier but the Thunderbird and the Chippewa also do that so its not really needed by the Lyrans. As for where they could put the Gauss line the orbital station would a solid choice if it fits. Alternatively the CAC could relocate the gauss line to Sudeten and have the Gauss rifles needed for Vulcan production brought to Catachan on the return trip of the dropships moving parts and components from Catachan to Sudeten and sell the rest of the output to other companies with the benefit of the production site being in a much less outlying location
 

Satorious

Active member
DHS seem to me to be a no brainer they are simply to good of a force multiplier not to include as for the XL engine does CAC make the right size?
 

Knowledgeispower

Ah I love the smell of missile spam in the morning
DHS seem to me to be a no brainer they are simply to good of a force multiplier not to include as for the XL engine does CAC make the right size?
They have the facilities for 240 XL production and are planning on fully reactivating them to make Centurion refit kits anyways. It's just that my design variant that uses the XL engine basically uses the saved weight to slap 5.5 tons of extra armor on the thing and that's it.
 
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The Unicorn

Well-known member
Yeah, you do occasionally get really big problems, but not normally when you've just raked some of the biggest troublemakers over the coals.
Two different things, or possibly more than two depending on how you look at it. You're talking about blatant and large scale corruption, I'm talking about simple incompetence, mis-communications, project bloat, petty empire building and interference for personal reasons, etc...

Erm. This is major military R&D where several of the companies involved have accepted guaranteed loans to be able to do the projects. The Archon is definitely going to be checking in on them. Every day? No. Probably not even every month. But every quarter? Damn straight! And if shit gets too far off the rails, she ain't gonna be happy about it.
I find it believable that Katrina will take the time to look in on such projects every few months, but it's not her job. That would be at least two levels below her. i.e some assistant to the secretary of defense (or depudy under-secretary, or whatever) would go to the various major projects, get a pretty power point display along with a lot of ass-kissing and promises the project will be the best thing since sliced bread, possibly get to see a very artificial display of what they produced and head off to write a report. Their boss would then take that report, along with dozens or hundreds of other reports and condense that into a report short enough the Archon could conceivably read it.

DefHes is essentially beyond suspicion with Brewer at the helm, and TharHes might as well be the Archon's personal fiefdom.
These would tend to reduce how much damage the screwups do, but we're still talking about only two people so the screwups will happen.
She is expending political capitol on this. She is going to make sure she sees a solid return.
And I'm sure she will, I'm just saying there should still be an occasional screw up. Not Corruption, just "I can't believe they were that stupid" screwup.
If you have a bunch of hyper-competent people at a level or two below the Archon it'd be more belivable that all the screwup were caught before it reaches her, as it is you're just reinforcing the fact that any screwups will flourish until she finds the time to do an in-depth review of a project. That might be only a few months of wasted time, or it might be longer, but it's still going to be a huge expense.
 

Kamehb

New member
Oh, there are mistakes coming, just very few substantial mistakes. Many of the 3050 ‘upgrades’ in canon weren’t just mistakes, they were outright dumb. Any competent engineer should have been able to tell they were dumb, and the fact that they were allowed into production is almost SOD-breaking in the sheer level of dumb. I’m attempting to make mistakes that are in-line with doctrine. For the Lyrans, that tends to mean things like less than ideal Fast Assaults and issues with ASFs.

I am actually a bit curious about this, I am probably just a bit out of the loop on the more technical aspects of the tech changes.

But can you give any examples of what you mean about the upgrades in 3050 being really stupid?
 

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