Warhammer Warhammer General discussion thread: Now with 100% more Space Marines

Battlegrinder

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Obozny
To be fair, until last year buying a sisters army was difficult, given they weren't normally in stores, were limited to a bunch of very old metal models, and thier rules were sub par, while marines are easier to obtain with far better rules and models. If you wanted to start an army, playing sisters was not a winning move.

Even today, sisters are a lot less supported and less flexible than the marines.
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
The problem with Custodes vs marines is that marines are posthuman super soldiers crafted by the emperor himself and armed with the finest weapons the imperium can provide. And then you have the custodes and they're all "we're just like that, but even more so". They don't really have a narrative niche of their own. Worse, chaos marines exist, so marines have the whole "fight against an evil version of yourself" thing going on, while custodes just sound like bullies when they fight CSM. Custodes and marines are also on the same side (mostly....RIP Brazen Drakes), so you also don't get the cool Soldier style "heroes must fight against a better version of themselves" narrative either. At best we get the custodes distrusting all marines because some marines have turned traitor, which is not exactly the best narrative hook GW could have come up with.

It also doesn't help that the marines have a more involved history with the setting wider exposure. Yes, GW is trying to retcon that by going "wait wait no, custodes have totally left the palace and gone off to do cool stuff", but that's not a lot to go on and it has a uphill battle vs where marines already here.

And also, marines have much more varity. Different chapters, different suits of armor, different weapons, different styles, etc. Just with primaris, you have 3 differant looks, the plain looking intercessor style (AKA the easy to customize ones), the somewhat excessively tactical vanguard marines, and the new bladeguard style guys that echo a lot more of the classic marine look. Custodes have one style. One and a half if you count the people who get 3D printed fabstodes.

Thing is, Custodes are Emperor's own legion. They were also not divided into Chapters, which means that diversifying them is impossible. That being said, with Big Blue Wonder now back it seems that Custodes are starting to deploy across galaxy, so we may see more of them. Even so, they will not get as much focus as workforce chapters, such as Ultrasmurfs, Furries etc.
 

Shipmaster Sane

You have been weighed
Meme Bump!


Aren't "Badass Normals" usually considered more Badass than their more "superpowered" counterparts? Withstanding how these ladies got power-armor
It's not about having something "just as good" or having "your own thing", it's about smashing someone else's thing and building a monument on the rubble.

It's not enough to make, say, a superhero stronger than Thor, you have to destroy Thor and replace him with a woman better than he ever was. Its not about what women get, its about what women can take.

That is why the Sororitas will forever fall on deaf ears in this argument, because the problem isnt "Women arent doing any cool space fighting with big guns" the problem is "Men have a thing".
 

CarlManvers2019

Writers Blocked Douchebag
It's not about having something "just as good" or having "your own thing", it's about smashing someone else's thing and building a monument on the rubble.

It's not enough to make, say, a superhero stronger than Thor, you have to destroy Thor and replace him with a woman better than he ever was. Its not about what women get, its about what women can take.

That is why the Sororitas will forever fall on deaf ears in this argument, because the problem isnt "Women arent doing any cool space fighting with big guns" the problem is "Men have a thing".

It’s part of what I dislike about hearing “legacies” and “passing the torch” these days

I wonder how it’s like to know part of the only reason you’re popular is that you’re based off someone else(Name and/or costume and/or color scheme included) and the guys in charge are pushing you as super popular, otherwise no one would pay attention to you

Being an expy is not enough, you gotta be known for being you at some point
 
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Emperor Tippy

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Hmm, so the Ark Mechanicus Speranza is said to be the "size of a continent". Australia is the smallest of the continents and is ~4,000 kilometers from end to end while its surface area is 2.97 million square miles.

While nothing compared to the Rock or Phalanx, it seems to be far more mobile (serving as the flagship of an Explorator fleet). So I kinda wonder if anyone bothered to calculate the sheer insanity of this thing.

I mean it could pretty reasonably support the entire population of real life Earth. Entire 40k Segmentum fleets would be outmassed.
 

Urabrask Revealed

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Hmm, so the Ark Mechanicus Speranza is said to be the "size of a continent". Australia is the smallest of the continents and is ~4,000 kilometers from end to end while its surface area is 2.97 million square miles.

While nothing compared to the Rock or Phalanx, it seems to be far more mobile (serving as the flagship of an Explorator fleet). So I kinda wonder if anyone bothered to calculate the sheer insanity of this thing.

I mean it could pretty reasonably support the entire population of real life Earth. Entire 40k Segmentum fleets would be outmassed.
Apparently it destroyed its birth world when the machine spirit inside was born. Jay-sus, imagine if the population of modern Earth was suddenly transported on that thing.
 

Emperor Tippy

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So I love how people can't make up their mind about the Emperor.

Like in the same breath they will condemn him for deceiving the primarchs, doing immoral things, and generally being a dick; and seem to be of the opinion that he totally had no idea about the Assassinorum and all of the other nasty stuff supposedly done behind his back.

This was a man who explicitly and directly created the Ordo Sinister. Who didn't just commit atrocities to advance his goals but created entire armies of transhuman super soldiers for the explicit purpose of committing those atrocities.

The Emperor had one goal, the survival and preeminence of humanity; and he was prepared to use absolutely anything and commit absolutely any act to advance that goal.

Didn't know about the Clades? They were founded by his most trusted agent and the Captain-General of the Custodes was an active part of their command cadre.

Taking the Emperor and his closest agents actions at face value it stupid to the point of pure farce.
 

Emperor Tippy

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Is anyone else kinda just utterly annoyed at how Guilliman has been treated and how the entire Gathering Storm + aftermath has been handled?

I mean the guy was a traitor who then, somehow, tricked his brothers into letting him take over the entire Imperium. Where he then destroyed its military forces pretty much entirely, failed to actually reform its government into something approaching sanity, saw all of his brothers lost, and then totally ignored his own "reforms" to build his own special legion.

Things get to spend ten thousand years going to shit and then he is healed via techno-heresy, sorcery, and the intervention of a Xenos god. This all is entirely ignored by everyone and just accepted without question. He makes his way to Terra where he suddenly declares himself the supreme commander of the Imperium once again, despite having absolutely no legal authority to do so. He then uses his utterly illegal forces, pet heretek, and seized position to go and fight a spectacularly unsuccessful crusade and force his illegal forces into the other chapters.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
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Is anyone else kinda just utterly annoyed at how Guilliman has been treated and how the entire Gathering Storm + aftermath has been handled?

I mean the guy was a traitor who then, somehow, tricked his brothers into letting him take over the entire Imperium. Where he then destroyed its military forces pretty much entirely, failed to actually reform its government into something approaching sanity, saw all of his brothers lost, and then totally ignored his own "reforms" to build his own special legion.

Things get to spend ten thousand years going to shit and then he is healed via techno-heresy, sorcery, and the intervention of a Xenos god. This all is entirely ignored by everyone and just accepted without question. He makes his way to Terra where he suddenly declares himself the supreme commander of the Imperium once again, despite having absolutely no legal authority to do so. He then uses his utterly illegal forces, pet heretek, and seized position to go and fight a spectacularly unsuccessful crusade and force his illegal forces into the other chapters.
He us a primearch.

Therefore he is right nk matter what
 

Emperor Tippy

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He us a primearch.

Therefore he is right nk matter what
Jagati Khan, Vulkan, the Lion, and even Russ are all Primarchs as well.

Hell, having Vulkan take the place of Crawl and spend the past 8,000 years since the beast working on the Primaris and a way to heal his brother would have been a far more reasonable thing.

Having Khan finally get the limelight and show back up, perhaps he was held in Commorogh and escaped with the whole insanity there would have been awesome. He shows back up on Luna via the Webway and is left with an Imperium that is beyond shit and so gets to work dealing with said shit.

Or the Lion decides he is done with his cat nap and so gets back up to fix his brothers spectacular fuck up. For extra lulz, have Guilliman show up healed by Crawl a few decades later.

Or Magnus doing his thing and Russ pops out during that fiasco over Fenris, boots Magnus away, and then is left trying to deal with the Imperium.

But no, once more it has to be Rowboat Girlyman and the Ultramarines being extra special and always the good guys.
 

Abhorsen

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Osaul
So somewhat unrelated, but is anyone else reading Divided Loyalties, a Warhammer Fantasy quest? It's sorta a CKII quest, but instead of having advisors, you are the advisor, starting as a Grey Journeyman working as the Intrigue advisor for the new Elector Count of Stirland.

Some highlights that make this good:
First, the QM is very blunt about how anyone, including the PC, can die (we recently had to roll 3 d100s, each one a DC25 no bonus, or we get fucked up, any nat 1s insta death, new quest).

Second, The lore building is absolutely excellent, and the characters are all well written. The dwarven lore especially is spot on, and you can tell the QM has a wealth of information.

Third, while there is some power creep, it all seems very earned, and was difficult to acquire, and we are still no where near some other quest protags abilities to just kill whatever.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
Jagati Khan, Vulkan, the Lion, and even Russ are all Primarchs as well.

Hell, having Vulkan take the place of Crawl and spend the past 8,000 years since the beast working on the Primaris and a way to heal his brother would have been a far more reasonable thing.

Having Khan finally get the limelight and show back up, perhaps he was held in Commorogh and escaped with the whole insanity there would have been awesome. He shows back up on Luna via the Webway and is left with an Imperium that is beyond shit and so gets to work dealing with said shit.

Or the Lion decides he is done with his cat nap and so gets back up to fix his brothers spectacular fuck up. For extra lulz, have Guilliman show up healed by Crawl a few decades later.

Or Magnus doing his thing and Russ pops out during that fiasco over Fenris, boots Magnus away, and then is left trying to deal with the Imperium.

But no, once more it has to be Rowboat Girlyman and the Ultramarines being extra special and always the good guys.
Because he is the most likely to come back to life then the others.
He is also the best leader for the Inperium out of all the remaining primearchs.

He also hates how sorrow the IOM had become and wants to change it.
 

Emperor Tippy

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Because he is the most likely to come back to life then the others.
He is also the best leader for the Inperium out of all the remaining primearchs.

He also hates how sorrow the IOM had become and wants to change it.
...
Khan and Russ were never dead, both of them just disappeared and no one knows what they are up to.

Vulkan is literally a Perpetual; he doesn't stay dead. Again, free to pop up from wherever he has been hanging out at any time.

The Lion is alive and healthy and has been for a while, just napping in the Rock.

Guilliman was stabbed in the throat by a Nurgle infected blade by another Primarch, stuffed into a stasis field literally seconds before his death, and spent the past ten thousand years sitting there.

Guilliman returning is actually the least reasonable of any of the loyalist primarchs besides Corax (who became some weird warp thing).

---
He is a shit leader for the Imperium and was the last time he was running it as well. He shattered the Imperial Army into multiple separate forces explicitly barred from any kind of unified chain of command without establishing any kind of unified, consistent, or coherent training program for them.

He removed the least corruptible and most capable individuals from any role in strategic affairs or oversight.

He broke the legions because he feared that his brothers would do what he (Guilliman) did and become traitors; despite the fact that all of them had proven their loyalty repeatedly.

He failed to reform Mars. He failed to create a governmental structure for the Imperium as a whole that even approached sanity.

He flatly betrayed every single oath that he ever took at one time or another; the worst two being Imperium Secundus and the second being when he decided that building a secret force loyal only to him and of beyond Legion size was perfectly acceptable.

Bluntly put, Guilliman doesn't actually have any real redeeming qualities when compared to the rest and is probably the worst choice to reform the Imperium given his last attempt. Considering that it was a Heretek who worked for Horus and an Eldar god who "fixed" him, one has to wonder if he is actually intended to fix things at all.
 

Battlegrinder

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Obozny
Guillimsn came back because the ultramarine are the flagship chapter, it's as simple as that and anyone thinking any other primarch would be coming back first is kidding themselves.

Calling Guilliman a traitor because because he (mistakenly but not unreasonably) assumed the worst and built the imperium secundus when he was magicslly cut off from the imperium and unable to do little else is pushing it. What was he supposed to do, fly his ships into the hellmouth and hope that maybe they'd make it out?

He shattered the Imperial Army into multiple separate forces explicitly barred from any kind of unified chain of command without establishing any kind of unified, consistent, or coherent training program for them.

And doing so was the right call, given that when a more unified, central and cohesive structure has taken root in the imperium it's gone wrong literally every single time (the age of apostasy being the most obvious example). Yes, there's no standardized training for the IG. There's not supposed to be, because all it takes is one guy slipping a few lines into the standard training manual and now a massive chunk of the army is tainted by chaos.


He failed to reform Mars.

He doesn't have the power to do that. Even the emperor didn't have the power to do that. The AdMech is a sovereign power that is tied to but not under the imperium itself.

He failed to create a governmental structure for the Imperium as a whole that even approached sanity.

Actually, it's my understanding that post HH Imperial government was mostly functional, but decayed in the years since for various reasons.


he decided that building a secret force loyal only to him and of beyond Legion size was perfectly acceptable.

I, uh, don't recall him doing that. Ever.
 

Emperor Tippy

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Guillimsn came back because the ultramarine are the flagship chapter, it's as simple as that and anyone thinking any other primarch would be coming back first is kidding themselves.
Well yes.

Calling Guilliman a traitor because because he (mistakenly but not unreasonably) assumed the worst and built the imperium secundus when he was magicslly cut off from the imperium and unable to do little else is pushing it. What was he supposed to do, fly his ships into the hellmouth and hope that maybe they'd make it out?
Considering that his actions prevented not just him but Sanguinius and Johnson from even really attempting to make it to Terra, yes.

He voided the Edict of Nikaea without the authority to do so; that being treason by the Emperor's own command (although others did this one as well).

He founded his own empire independent of the Imperium; this is again treason.

He violated the Codex Astartes to a greater extent than literally anyone else in history; this is by his own decree treason.

He usurped the High Lords of Terra and the Imperium in direct violation of his own decree and without any legal authority to do so; that is again treason.

So yes, Guilliman is flatly a traitor. That he had "reasons" doesn't negate his treason.

And doing so was the right call, given that when a more unified, central and cohesive structure has taken root in the imperium it's gone wrong literally every single time (the age of apostasy being the most obvious example). Yes, there's no standardized training for the IG. There's not supposed to be, because all it takes is one guy slipping a few lines into the standard training manual and now a massive chunk of the army is tainted by chaos.
Doing so was massively the wrong call. If Vulkan hadn't popped up at the eleventh hour, the Imperium would have fallen to the Beast because of Guilliman's "reforms".

As for a unified command structure going bad; well when it can only be created by individuals of extraordinary power deciding to ignore the rules to build one; I would posit that you are conflating cause and effect.

And again, he broke the legions because he feared that his loyal brothers would do what he did; declare themselves independent and build new empires. Decreeing that if a Primarch fell their legion would be divided into Chapters might have made sense, but ordering the breakup and complete removal of Astartes from all command structures was the height of idiocy. Especially seeing as he decided to totally ignore that little detail for his own empire and legion.

He doesn't have the power to do that. Even the emperor didn't have the power to do that. The AdMech is a sovereign power that is tied to but not under the imperium itself.
He absolutely had the power to do that post Heresy. The Mechanicum was in blatant violation of the Treaty of Olympus and he had six other Primarchs by his side along with nine legions against an enemy that was self destructing. What he should have done was sent the full might of the Imperium in Sol against Mars, purge the traitors, and then install Vulkan as the new Fabricator General with orders to reform the cog boys; at the time he had the force, authority, and prestige to make it stick. Instead he decided that embracing heretek traitors was a much better idea.

Actually, it's my understanding that post HH Imperial government was mostly functional, but decayed in the years since for various reasons.

It collapsed into worthlessness by the War of the Beast fifteen hundred years post Heresy. Literally three lifetimes for an upper class Imperial. It then had to be purged entirely by the Grand Master of Assassins and an Imperial Fist who flatly committed a coup; said assassin spending the next century using his agents to go on one of the largest (if not the largest) corruption purges in Imperial history.

Guilliman didn't create a government that could last or survive the rigors of time in the post Heresy galaxy. Hell, the Inquisition is said to have repeatedly in the millennia since purged the entirety of the High Lords on multiple occasions and are the ones doing most of the work of actually keeping the Imperium in tact.

I, uh, don't recall him doing that. Ever.
That's what the Primaris are. He ordered them built, ordered that only he could authorize their deployment, and that he was their commander. The entire Primaris project was multiple kinds of treason. But then, again, Guilliman has been pro-treason for a very long time now.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
...
Khan and Russ were never dead, both of them just disappeared and no one knows what they are up to.

Vulkan is literally a Perpetual; he doesn't stay dead. Again, free to pop up from wherever he has been hanging out at any time.

The Lion is alive and healthy and has been for a while, just napping in the Rock.

Guilliman was stabbed in the throat by a Nurgle infected blade by another Primarch, stuffed into a stasis field literally seconds before his death, and spent the past ten thousand years sitting there.

Guilliman returning is actually the least reasonable of any of the loyalist primarchs besides Corax (who became some weird warp thing).

---
He is a shit leader for the Imperium and was the last time he was running it as well. He shattered the Imperial Army into multiple separate forces explicitly barred from any kind of unified chain of command without establishing any kind of unified, consistent, or coherent training program for them.

He removed the least corruptible and most capable individuals from any role in strategic affairs or oversight.

He broke the legions because he feared that his brothers would do what he (Guilliman) did and become traitors; despite the fact that all of them had proven their loyalty repeatedly.

He failed to reform Mars. He failed to create a governmental structure for the Imperium as a whole that even approached sanity.

He flatly betrayed every single oath that he ever took at one time or another; the worst two being Imperium Secundus and the second being when he decided that building a secret force loyal only to him and of beyond Legion size was perfectly acceptable.

Bluntly put, Guilliman doesn't actually have any real redeeming qualities when compared to the rest and is probably the worst choice to reform the Imperium given his last attempt. Considering that it was a Heretek who worked for Horus and an Eldar god who "fixed" him, one has to wonder if he is actually intended to fix things at all.
I mean, the Admech would have most likely died protecting their secrets should he had went to pryueg them like you are saying.

You seem to fail to understand that the Admech are THAT petty of a group and are willing to let all their research die with them. They were willing to work with necrons to save or at least give Cadia a chance. Most likely had he had done what you wanted him to on mars Cadia would have fallen A LOT sooner, and Abbadon would still be on the loose then in a Pokeball with Creed.

he also formed a backup Imperium should Terra fall. I mean put all your eggs in one basket and should it fall why not have your own sitting there ready.

Plus we have no evidence he was going to make it there in time.


Also the operation of the Army from the Navy and so on so forth is because they do not want a repeat of the heresy where traitors in one has full control over both where now it is speerate.

Plus you cant really have a standard training for all of the IG. Training Cadians to fight like Catcahsn or Everyone to fight like Cadians would not have certain works using what they are naturally good at to their advantage. Training Valhallans not to be proficient in Ice warfare and train them EXACTLY like the Cadians would not be useful, same with Tallarn, or Catachans.

Also the high lords of Terra are a VERY orrupt bunch.


Should I emtnion that MULTIPLe high ups have worked with various Xeno groups and had done so for the better of the Imperium? You seem to focus on the use of Eldar and heavy Xeno stuff and warp to healing Robute.


Finally, he is considered one of the best primearchs political leadership wise and strategically speaking compared to the others you mentioned. Khan and Russ most likely will not return, especially Khan.

Vulkn is pretty much confirmed captured by the Necron Pokemaster.

The Lion was in WAY worse shape the Robute and most don't even think he is Alive.


Then again I focus on the IG mainly personally. Never really focused on the Greater scheme.


Though am I the only one that thinks the Saints are Deamons just the emps instead of the Chaos gods? Same with the legion of the damned? How are they not traitors or heretical?
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
I think question here should be what effect will Guilliman's actions have on the Imperium. If something is treason, but preserves the state, then it is not a treason - say, removing an incompetent Emperor (see: Byzantine Empire and its dozens of rebellions).
 

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