Warbirds Thread

[ShadowArxxy]

Yeah, I too have seen this demonstrated in person. The A-10 is shockingly quiet, much more so than "normal" combat aircraft.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

But the BRRRRRRRT is such an interesting sound out of the quiet. 😈

 

[BF110C4]

But the BRRRRRRRT is such an interesting sound out of the quiet. 😈

By the time the sound arrive the enemy is not in a position to appreciate the noise.

 

[Zachowon]

I take it you've never been privileged to be at an A-10 flyover. I have, you don't hear them until they pass over. Those engines are mounted in such a way that most of the noise is radiated up and behind, and they aren't very loud to begin with.

If they manage to further suppress the IIR signature, then the A-10 becomes even more dangerous.

As Zach says, the US is actually very well set up to deal with the full up modern Russian IADS. And the Russians know it, which is why they're spending so much on it to try and plug the holes that the US would use to tear it apart.

People point to Yugo and go "SEE YALL DIDNT DO SHIT!" and then fail to realize that was us holding back.
Against Russia or China, we won't hols back.
Anti radiation missles.
Long range cruise missles.
The US military has literally built itself to be a counter to the Russians since the end of ww2 basically.
We are adapting to be able to counter Russia and China.
The A10 will still be really useful for years to come.
SHORAD still has to identify, target, and fore before being shot. Trees and buildings are horrible for such things.

Also, if IADS are so effective why were A10s show down so few in both Yugo and Iraq compared to fighter aircraft?

 

[bintananth]

The A10 will still be really useful for years to come.

Maybe.

There's this little-known thing called "metal fatigue" and the youngest A-10 was built when I was five. The first one flew when my mom was 13.

 

[Bacle]

Maybe.

There's this little-known thing called "metal fatigue" and the youngest A-10 was built when I was five. The first one flew when my mom was 13.

Reinforcing the metal while it's still healthy can put decades on an aircrafts life, and the Hogs were overbuilt as is, while designed to be easy to repair if they managed to get it back to base.

I've seen Hogs a few times in the Rockies, and they are not very noisy unless you are behind them. Very nimble at low speeds as well, nasty enough to dogfight in the ground clutter if necessary.

 

[bintananth]

Reinforcing the metal while it's still healthy can put decades on an aircrafts life, and the Hogs were overbuilt as is, while designed to be easy to repair if they managed to get it back to base.

I've seen Hogs a few times in the Rockies, and they are not very noisy unless you are behind them. Very nimble at low speeds as well, nasty enough to dogfight in the ground clutter if necessary.

All it takes for something to go from "this is awesome" to "oh, fuck, we're screwed six ways to Sunday" is a slight mistake. A colleague of mine from years ago has a story about a powerplant going "BOOM!" in a BLEVE because an improperly built high-pressure superheated steam line let go.

BTW: No fighter pilot worth their pilot's license is getting into a low-and-slow dogfight with an A-10 unless it's an absolute emergency because that's not a fight their plane was designed for or can win.

 

[PsihoKekec]

People point to Yugo and go "SEE YALL DIDNT DO SHIT!" and then fail to realize that was us holding back.
Against Russia or China, we won't hols back.
Anti radiation missles.
Long range cruise missles.

Anti radiation missiles and cruise missiles were used to such extent during the Kosovo war that the stocks of AGM-88 and BGM-109 were nearly gone, apparently the USAF started refurbishing the leftover AGM-45 as interim solution at the time of the war end. The only thing USA was holding back at was the use of nukes and terror bombing.

The US military has literally built itself to be a counter to the Russians since the end of ww2 basically.

And Soviets/Russians did the same.

SHORAD still has to identify, target, and fore before being shot.

And the pilot has to do the same, identifying the opponent amongst the ground clutter, target the opponent and engage before being shot, while piloting the plane. Piloting the plane is more demanding than driving a ground vehicle and in any way the gunner in SHORAD doesn't have to worry about driving at all, while A-10 pilot has to split his attention between controlling the aircraft (no fly-by-wire), finding the enemy and engaging it. A-10 pilot is at clear disadvantage here and it is why double seater platforms, like F-15E or Su-34 are much better at engaging enemy air defenses.

Also, if IADS are so effective why were A10s show down so few in both Yugo and Iraq compared to fighter aircraft?

In Iraq it was because A-10s were used in areas where SAMs have been neutralised by other aircraft, while poorly trained grunts of the light AA units could only hit anything through the law of probability and most of the Iraqi MANPADs were outdated versions of SA-7.
In Yugoslavia, A-10 were hardly used at all, after two were damaged early on, they were mostly used for high altitude patrolling, a role in which they were next to useless.

 

[Morphic Tide]

Maybe.

There's this little-known thing called "metal fatigue" and the youngest A-10 was built when I was five. The first one flew when my mom was 13.

That's budget bullshit, though, not a problem of the design. That is one of the single largest pieces of supporting evidence for "the air force does not want to fund A-10s so they can spend the money on more zoomies."

 

[Zachowon]

Anti radiation missiles and cruise missiles were used to such extent during the Kosovo war that the stocks of AGM-88 and BGM-109 were nearly gone, apparently the USAF started refurbishing the leftover AGM-45 as interim solution at the time of the war end. The only thing USA was holding back at was the use of nukes and terror bombing.


And Soviets/Russians did the same.


And the pilot has to do the same, identifying the opponent amongst the ground clutter, target the opponent and engage before being shot, while piloting the plane. Piloting the plane is more demanding than driving a ground vehicle and in any way the gunner in SHORAD doesn't have to worry about driving at all, while A-10 pilot has to split his attention between controlling the aircraft (no fly-by-wire), finding the enemy and engaging it. A-10 pilot is at clear disadvantage here and it is why double seater platforms, like F-15E or Su-34 are much better at engaging enemy air defenses.


In Iraq it was because A-10s were used in areas where SAMs have been neutralised by other aircraft, while poorly trained grunts of the light AA units could only hit anything through the law of probability and most of the Iraqi MANPADs were outdated versions of SA-7.
In Yugoslavia, A-10 were hardly used at all, after two were damaged early on, they were mostly used for high altitude patrolling, a role in which they were next to useless.

You do know there is a whole intelligence that specializes in finding ELINT right?
Almost like we have it so the USAF and USA are able to engage and destroy ADA eith either air craft, cruise missles, or Artillery before they sre a threat.

And more A 10s survived that flew sorties then F16s did during Desert Storm. A 19s have the highest survivability of damn near any US aircraft.

In order for ADA to be effective. They have to hear, see, acquisition with radar, and then fire.
The A10 flying low and slow is not able to be heard easily until after it already spotted you, in which case it starts to get into position, if it wasn't already knowing where you were.
You then have a timer to get your radar on, target, and fire before it shoots you, and then most likely move before the Army brings down hell

 

[paulobrito]

Many of the A-10 'survived' need to be fully rebuilt or are quietly write-off after RTB.
And that is against old weapons managed by barely competent adversaries.
What all wars from WW2 to today as proved and you consistently failed to understand is that the air force oversells the numbers that they kill and their efficacy.
That works (barely) against third and 5th-grade adversaries, against near pears? Dream on.
Against an adversary that has as good if not better EW than you, in a contested space (air and land), that you don't have full information - because the other side can negate that to you - you are in a really bad situation.
Again (so many times, but you really don't understand), you are spoiled by decades of war against adversaries that let you have full info advantage.
Against Russia or China? for starts, you don't have GPS-guided weapons working, not air dominance, nor satellite overview, no one of the advantages you take for granted.
Russia has already shown that partially in Syria, but I see that you can't learn.

 

[Zachowon]

You mean how we are hog tied bound and gagged with what we can do in Syria and are basically just using infantry and MAYBE...MAYBE some assets.

 

[bintananth]

That's budget bullshit, though, not a problem of the design. That is one of the single largest pieces of supporting evidence for "the air force does not want to fund A-10s so they can spend the money on more zoomies."

Sorta. The AF didn't really want the A-10 back when it was built because CAS isn't sexy and they're playing second fiddle to Army.

What'll eventually lead to its retirement: lack of spare parts. The company which built them no longer exists and the only source of spares for the the airframe is an A-10 that's been written off or retired.

 

[Knowledgeispower]

Sorta. The AF didn't really want the A-10 back when it was built because CAS isn't sexy and they're playing second fiddle to Army.

What'll eventually lead to its retirement: lack of spare parts. The company which built them no longer exists and the only source of spares for the the airframe is an A-10 that's been written off or retired.

With 3-d printing not as big of problem as it used to be but yeah eventually probably going to be the cause of retirement. Well that and with us out of endless wars the need for a CAS focused plane has gone way down

 

[Bacle]

Retirement for Hogs just means they become large UCAVs the military don't risk a pilot on, not that they get pulled from service.

 

[bintananth]

With 3-d printing not as big of problem as it used to be but yeah eventually probably going to be the cause of retirement. Well that and with us out of endless wars the need for a CAS focused plane has gone way down

3D printing will work for small stuff that's not structurally important. For the big critical stuff it'll get to "hire a machine shop and a hope they get it right."

In 1944 the Rolls-Royce Armoured Car was withdrawn because the British ran out of suitable spare tyres. They weren't operationally obsolete. They were pre-WWI luxury cars which had been given an armoured shell and turret with a light machine gun.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

Sorta. The AF didn't really want the A-10 back when it was built because CAS isn't sexy and they're playing second fiddle to Army.

The Air Force only wanted the A-10s in the sense that they didn't want to allow the Army to have them. Since the A-10 is a dedicated CAS assset, it would have made infinitely more sense to place them with Army Aviation alongside helicopter gunships, but the Air Force pretty much threw a tantrum over that idea, shrieking that the Key West Agreement is sacrosanct.

 

[Knowledgeispower]

The Air Force only wanted the A-10s in the sense that they didn't want to allow the Army to have them. Since the A-10 is a dedicated CAS assset, it would have made infinitely more sense to place them with Army Aviation alongside helicopter gunships, but the Air Force pretty much threw a tantrum over that idea, shrieking that the Key West Agreement is sacrosanct.

Note to self if I ever become president ot SECDEF the Key West Argeement is getting binned. It's not even a law so I could easily do so

 

[Aaron Fox]

Note to self if I ever become president ot SECDEF the Key West Argeement is getting binned. It's not even a law so I could easily do so

You have to get through a lot of senators and representatives if you want to do that.

Though, to be honest, Key West is obsolete at this point, which we can agree with.

Many of the A-10 'survived' need to be fully rebuilt or are quietly write-off after RTB.
And that is against old weapons managed by barely competent adversaries.
What all wars from WW2 to today as proved and you consistently failed to understand is that the air force oversells the numbers that they kill and their efficacy.
That works (barely) against third and 5th-grade adversaries, against near pears? Dream on.
Against an adversary that has as good if not better EW than you, in a contested space (air and land), that you don't have full information - because the other side can negate that to you - you are in a really bad situation.
Again (so many times, but you really don't understand), you are spoiled by decades of war against adversaries that let you have full info advantage.
Against Russia or China? for starts, you don't have GPS-guided weapons working, not air dominance, nor satellite overview, no one of the advantages you take for granted.
Russia has already shown that partially in Syria, but I see that you can't learn.

This, by god this.

Outside of Vietnam, the only other time we faced competent air defense was in Serbia and they basically gave NATO a double bird flip and retained pretty much all of their AA assets. The A-10 in Serbia was going to get slaughtered due to the competence if they were going NoE. The landscape has changed, and not for the better for NoE aircraft. Hence why there is stealth and staying at high altitudes replacing the NoE doctrines. The Su-25 is surviving because, unlike the A-10, it is built around rockets, bombs, and ATGMs and not its gun. Thus able to not rely on NoE doctrines to function.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

The Su-25 is surviving because, unlike the A-10, it is built around rockets, bombs, and ATGMs and not its gun. Thus able to not rely on NoE doctrines to function.

Also to be clear, the A-10 can carry LOTS of what you attribute the success of the SU-25...rockets, bombs and ATGMs. The A-10 is not a 1-shot wonder. Watching 2 A-10's clear off their weapons pods in dance of death is surreally beautiful.