Warbirds Thread

[Aaron Fox]

With modern tech, I'm surprised no one's tried to replicate an Orca; a couple of the engines they use on the F-35s could probably do the trick and already have the VTOL capability.

It would be a worthy compliment to the Warthog and Apache.

The current battlefield reality is that, well, the Warthog is DoA because every AA piece from MANPAD up will rip it to shreds (as its lack of stealth features will be like a giant beacon with a side order of a giant neon sign saying 'FREE MISSILE KILL!' pointing at it) while the Apache (and our Orca) will have to stay behind the front lines because all it takes is one MANPAD and it's dead.

The Warthog is likely going to be replaced -in the grand scheme of things- by the F-35 and likely an F-111 successor because the combat environment is going to be that deadly for anything without any sort of stealth between anything resembling peer/near-peer powers. In addition to the fact that NATO SEAD/DEAD tactics were proven impudent with even a micron of competence...

... anything that relies on flying NoE is going to have to use stuff like N-LOS Spikes and stay behind friendly lines or get ripped apart.

That came from a game and isn't physically possible.

For one thing: propane is not liquid at room temperature and less dense than kerosene is even when it's liquid.

That's just the first "this is a pipe dream" thing I noticed.

For simplification purposes, from my understanding GURPS has LNG in its liquid form. Same with, say, hydrogen.

 

[Bacle]

... anything that relies on flying NoE is going to have to use stuff like N-LOS Spikes and stay behind friendly lines or get ripped apart.

N-LOS, or data-linked LOS via loyal wingmen, would probably be part of the package.

Have the wingman pop up above a ridge, feed data to an Orca, and suddenly you have several Apache's worth of missiles incoming without being able to see the launcher.

It's a proven tactic with things like the Longbow Apache, and could be adapted to an Orca/loyal wingman system.

 

[bintananth]

With modern tech, I'm surprised no one's tried to replicate an Orca; a couple of the engines they use on the F-35s could probably do the trick and already have the VTOL capability.

It would be a worthy compliment to the Warthog and Apache.

The SBD Dauntless ("Slow, But Deadly") had an overbuilt airframe designed to handle 12G. An F-35 is only designed for, IIRC, 7G and has no chance of outmaneuvering an SBD in a dogfight if an F-35 could actually go slow enough to turn with an SBD without stalling.

 

[bintananth]

For simplification purposes, from my understanding GURPS has LNG in its liquid form. Same with, say, hydrogen.

Liquid Hydrogen is less dense and has even worse handling characteristics than LNG because it leaks through damn near everything and does not want be a liquid at all.*

There's a reason no one but NASA has ever used the former to get things into space.

* If you don't liquify hydrogen correctly I'll go right back being a gas.

 

[Aaron Fox]

N-LOS, or data-linked LOS via loyal wingmen, would probably be part of the package.

Have the wingman pop up above a ridge, feed data to an Orca, and suddenly you have several Apache's worth of missiles incoming without being able to see the launcher.

It's a proven tactic with things like the Longbow Apache, and could be adapted to an Orca/loyal wingman system.

Yeah, more or less going to be the future for anything NoE. The closer you get to the ground, the shittier your energy is.

Liquid Hydrogen is less dense and has even worse handling characteristics than LNG because it leaks through damn near everything and does not want be a liquid at all.*

There's a reason no one but NASA has ever used the former to get things into space.

* If you don't liquify hydrogen correctly I'll go right back being a gas.

Well, I didn't make the system, I'm just using it. Also, the engines on this thing utilize a variant of turbine called 'hyperfans', which is essentially a hydrogen-burning advanced turbojet... which in this case it's reconfigured to use hydrocarbons instead of hydrogen. Another thing is that this aircraft was made in what is essentially TibSun era, where all the oil deposits are nommed by Tiberium (or in this version's case, mostly eaten by Tib... there are major deposits held by Russia -going the way of the Eurasian Dynasty of Earth 21X0 fame- and the GLA), so it was either using hydrogen (which even I consider shit) or literally have no military as you fast-track fusion engine deployment.

Also, remember that Traveller uses a lot of liquid hydrogen for its FTL drive.

The SBD Dauntless ("Slow, But Deadly") had an overbuilt airframe designed to handle 12G. An F-35 is only designed for, IIRC, 7G and has no chance of outmaneuvering an SBD in a dogfight if an F-35 could actually go slow enough to turn with an SBD without stalling.

The thing with the F-35 is that it's limited by 7Gs because of the squishy, squishy pilot inside, not the airframe itself. If there were inertia dampeners or the pilot wasn't a squishy meatbag, then the aircraft can simply fly around like a rabbit on crack with all sorts of maneuvers.

In addition to that, the SBD is never going to utilize that 12G handling to its fullest because of the squishy crew inside.

 

[bintananth]

In addition to that, the SBD is never going to utilize that 12G handling to its fullest because of the squishy crew inside.

IIRC, the Dauntless had an automatic safety system which could get one back to somewhat level and even flight when the meatbag crew was knocked unconscious by the G-forces encountered when pulling out of a dive. I know that Ju87's did have such a system and Dauntlesses were roughly 100mph faster than Stukas.

 

[Aaron Fox]

IIRC, the Dauntless had an automatic safety system which could get one back to somewhat level and even flight when the meatbag crew was knocked unconscious by the G-forces encountered when pulling out of a dive. I know that Ju87's did have such a system and Dauntlesses were roughly 100mph faster than Stukas.

Hence why I said that the SBD is never going to utilize that 12G handling. From my understanding, we've pretty much put the equivalent of governors in our avionics because we've designed aircraft that long left the plausible for human handling.

Also, the humble Sidewinder was designed to take out prop planes as much as it takes out jets...

 

[paulobrito]

Almost all modern and modern-ish fighters are designed to be 9G or 9G+. The meat bags can support - for a very short period, granted - 14G, without losing consciousness. That is demonstrated/tested for example in the astronaut's testing during the Apollo program.

 

[Bacle]

Kinda looks like the King Raptor from C&C Generals Zero Hour.

 

[paulobrito]

Martin Baker MB5 - the best(?), never produced, late WWII fighter.

 

[PsihoKekec]

Martin-Baker unfortunately did not have the political clout the more established British aircraft manufacturers. It is ironic that they are the only one from that era to survive to this day as an independent entity.

 

[Knowledgeispower]

Martin-Baker unfortunately did not have the political clout the more established British aircraft manufacturers. It is ironic that they are the only one from that era to survive to this day as an independent entity.

Albeit moreso on the component side of thing and as makers of fine ejection seats

 

[Bacle]

Finland has chosen F-35s for it's next fighter.

 

[Aaron Fox]

I mean, to be honest, the only way aircraft are going to stay relevant is via data-fusion and stealth and really nothing else unless genuine Battletech armor comes out within the next half-decade or so.

 

[Morphic Tide]

I mean, to be honest, the only way aircraft are going to stay relevant is via data-fusion and stealth and really nothing else unless genuine Battletech armor comes out within the next half-decade or so.

You've still not provided solid evidence against the A-10 in its intended role, nor evidence for your suggestions about data access being remotely plausible. I have not forgotten your completely unsourced "smart dust" bullshit.

Redundancy still works in most conditions, as there is a massive logistical difference between damaged and destroyed, because pilots are a pain in the ass to replace and every component not lost is a component that doesn't need shipped.

And, of course, a plane that can return to base is one that can be sent back out in a dire enough emergency. It isn't a full loss, that's why they aren't recorded as one, because there are actually major military differences between the two.

If you make anti-tank missiles obsolete, you'd better be very damned sure the reason for that covers the remotest plausible anti-tank rifle before talking about any exotic new shit. If the power demands of all your new shit imply crew-operated railguns are a possibility, I'd put my money on that over making cybersecurity an absolute requirement to do literally anything.

You need to show that not only are current paradigms about to die off, you need to show that your specific new paradigm is at all plausible. Which means either extremely specific positive evidence, or having a mountain of previous technologies dismissed one by one, including ones rendered obsolete by what you say is going to be made irrelevant itself.

 

[Bacle]

Plus, well, stealth Hogs are something that the AF is working on now; really the Hog just needed a few changes to the airframe to make it stealth, and it flies below most radars as a matter of course.

 

[PsihoKekec]

Considering the A-10 does not have computer controlled stability, I would be vary of any changes to the airframe, to make it stealthy.

 

[bintananth]

Considering the A-10 does not have computer controlled stability, I would be vary of any changes to the airframe, to make it stealthy.

I would be very wary of a stealth A-10 like aircraft which needs computer controlled stability because where they fly requires the ability to remain stable after taking battle damage and no stealth system short of a Romulan cloaking device is invisible to to the sensor suite called Eyeball Mk.1 backed up by Eardrum Mk.1 telling Eyeball Mk.1 where to look.

 

[BF110C4]

I would be very wary of a stealth A-10 like aircraft which needs computer controlled stability because where they fly requires the ability to remain stable after taking battle damage and no stealth system short of a Romulan cloaking device is invisible to to the sensor suite called Eyeball Mk.1 backed up by Eardrum Mk.1 telling Eyeball Mk.1 where to look.

Just don't forget that those became obsolete for targeting WWII prop planes at anything but point blank due to the ever increasing speed of aviation and while the A-10 is not supersonic its still far faster than a human operator can locate and target with even a light AA autocannon. If the scientist do manage to get a practical stealth upgrade for the Hog (and that's a really huge IF), even if only for IR sensors, then the risk of Stinger missiles and other AA systems based on the Sidewinder is greatly decreased.

 

[bintananth]

Just don't forget that those became obsolete for targeting WWII prop planes at anything but point blank due to the ever increasing speed of aviation and while the A-10 is not supersonic its still far faster than a human operator can locate and target with even a light AA autocannon. If the scientist do manage to get a practical stealth upgrade for the Hog (and that's a really huge IF), even if only for IR sensors, then the risk of Stinger missiles and other AA systems based on the Sidewinder is greatly decreased.

As fire control for AA autocannons our eyes and ears are obsolete. That I will not disagree with.

As for spotting something like an A-10? I can hear an airliner on its landing approach when it's several miles away. I can also hear my daughters trying to sneak out no matter how quiet they try to be because I can hear them opening the garage door when I'm asleep.

My hearing sucks. I have tinnitus and two blown eardrums. Daddy will be waiting and wanting an explanation when they get back from whatever shenanigans they thought they could get away with.

If you want to make something like an A-10 stealthy make it sound like background noise and paint it to look like the background.