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Military US Military Is Scared Americans Won't Fight For Globalism

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
Yes, that's when i recognized its leftist slant of these complaints. If it was solely about the non-political issues, you wouldn't see references to the BLM riots and the like, and if it was about all of them, you would see some kind of right wing political complaints like those few people here mentioned, so why is it so hard for you to accept that clear slant?
Because I recognize that these complaints are more than just things isolated to the Left or Lefty areas, and I recognize that the military is not going to try to only get people from the 'rah, rah' background as much, because the DoD wants a woke military.

They only want red state troops to be bodies for expeditionary forces, not their valued and vaunt Navy and Air Force with expensive shit and nicer living conditions. And the crayon-eaters in the Marine's are way more glamorous than the Army, also are in Stratcom while Army pukes aren't, because the Navy has nukes for Marine's to guard, and the Army really doesn't anymore.

I mean, we even agree this seems to be the Army suffering the worst problems, and well, the Navy and Air Force are far more workable life-styles for wokies and way more 'cool' than most army jobs.

Maybe the Army can beg to get the A-10's and CAS jobs back to lure in more good PR.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
Though I will say the whole idea of using the US military to go finally deal with the cartels in Mexico after this latest kidnapping/murder, as put forward by Senator Graham, has some recruitment potential.

Lot's of people across the political spectrum would love a chance to go fuck up some cartels for the shit they keep doing north of the border.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
Because I recognize that these complaints are more than just things isolated to the Left or Lefty areas, and I recognize that the military is not going to try to only get people from the 'rah, rah' background as much, because the DoD wants a woke military.
Then you need another article to use as your battering ram for your argument, because this one clearly refers to a lefty area, as in no surprises there.

The DoD (or more specifically, the democrat bureaucrat plants inside DoD, let's call things by their names) sure do want as many woke people in the military as possible...
How many will want to be there and how will that affect its effectiveness are completely separate questions.
They only want red state troops to be bodies for expeditionary forces, not their valued and vaunt Navy and Air Force with expensive shit and nicer living conditions. And the crayon-eaters in the Marine's are way more glamorous than the Army, also are in Stratcom while Army pukes aren't, because the Navy has nukes for Marine's to guard, and the Army really doesn't anymore.
Care to elaborate? Because what you said there reads like some theory you would find on a some really fringe site.

I mean, we even agree this seems to be the Army suffering the worst problems, and well, the Navy and Air Force are far more workable life-styles for wokies and way more 'cool' than most army jobs.

Maybe the Army can beg to get the A-10's and CAS jobs back to lure in more good PR.
Air Force, sure, as it has a lot of cushy office jobs...
Navy? The "woman problem" with blue water ship crews is legendary...
 

Ixian

Well-known member
Then you need another article to use as your battering ram for your argument, because this one clearly refers to a lefty area, as in no surprises there.

The DoD (or more specifically, the democrat bureaucrat plants inside DoD, let's call things by their names) sure do want as many woke people in the military as possible...
How many will want to be there and how will that affect its effectiveness are completely separate questions.

Care to elaborate? Because what you said there reads like some theory you would find on a some really fringe site.


Air Force, sure, as it has a lot of cushy office jobs...
Navy? The "woman problem" with blue water ship crews is legendary...

The "women problem" spread to submarines. 1/3 of the reason I didn't reenlist.

The other 2/3s is the aforementioned woke bullshit and the quality of life problems.
 

Sailor.X

Cold War Veteran
Founder
Look, I mentioned Vietnam because the article did, and the article mentions the quality of life and job market competition as well.

If some promising guy from in the inner city can make more money and have a better QoL going to get a job at an auto-shop or going to get a degree at a community college, then the military pay issue is going to be a factor.

You assumptions were not named anywhere in the article, while I actually argued about things mentioned in the article.

You saw 'teachers unions', 'school board', 'Chicago', and seem to construct a strawman argument around that to support Zach's arguments, rather than actually debate what the article said.

So I want to ask again, did you actually read the article in full?
The Military will not look down on you from coming from the inner city like civilian companies do. Trust me I work at a Major Corporation. Gerber. You should hear what the management really thinks. And it ain't uplifting. They just want to use them and not give them a chance to truly advance. Where as in the Military you can go from E1 to Flag Officer with hard work.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
The Military will not look down on you from coming from the inner city like civilian companies do. Trust me I work at a Major Corporation. Gerber. You should hear what the management really thinks. And it ain't uplifting. They just want to use them and not give them a chance to truly advance. Where as in the Military you can go from E1 to Flag Officer with hard work.
When's the last time a we had a flag officer who started as an E1?

Hopeful and aspirational theoretical possibilities should not be pushed over realistic expected outcomes, and military PR doing that is part of why recruiting is so bad.

Don't sugar coat shit, don't give unrealistic expectations, and don't blow smoke up people's ass's for PR/morale purposes. Explain the suck, explain the depths of the suck, and explain that anyone who wants in needs to want more suck than good in life if they want to fit and make it a career.

Tear down all illusions and propaganda about service life, about military society in general, and let people make fully informed decisions.
 

Sailor.X

Cold War Veteran
Founder
When's the last time a we had a flag officer who started as an E1?

Hopeful and aspirational theoretical possibilities should not be pushed over realistic expected outcomes, and military PR doing that is part of why recruiting is so bad.

Don't sugar coat shit, don't give unrealistic expectations, and don't blow smoke up people's ass's for PR/morale purposes. Explain the suck, explain the depths of the suck, and explain that anyone who wants in needs to want more suck than good in life if they want to fit and make it a career.

Tear down all illusions and propaganda about service life, about military society in general, and let people make fully informed decisions.
Back in 2020. A Seaman to Admiral Story
 

Ixian

Well-known member
The Military will not look down on you from coming from the inner city like civilian companies do. Trust me I work at a Major Corporation. Gerber. You should hear what the management really thinks. And it ain't uplifting. They just want to use them and not give them a chance to truly advance. Where as in the Military you can go from E1 to Flag Officer with hard work.

Unless your rate/mos is over manned and it's literally impossible to score a percentile high enough to advance on the advancement exam.


SEALs are special forces.

They are a small elite group that gets a lot of attention and care.

They are not representative of the wider navy.
 

Sailor.X

Cold War Veteran
Founder
Unless your rate/mos is over manned and it's literally impossible to score a percentile high enough to advance on the advancement exam.



SEALs are special forces.

They are a small elite group that gets a lot of attention and care.

They are not representative of the wider navy.
Bacle asked for a recent example. I gave him one. Now you are trying to hand wave it away. That is not how a debate works. You can't just hand wave data you don't like.
 

Ixian

Well-known member
Bacle asked for a recent example. I gave him one. Now you are trying to hand wave it away. That is not how a debate works. You can't just hand wave data you don't like.

It isn't "hand waving" you listed what is commonly known as "an exception to the rule".

The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of sailors will never go from a Seaman to Admiral, the pipeline is restricted heavily.

Is it impossible for a Seaman to become an Officer? Theoretically no, is it likely? Also no.

You can't just throw out an example of a Navy SEAL and pretend it's applicable to the entire Navy.
 

Sailor.X

Cold War Veteran
Founder
It isn't "hand waving" you listed what is commonly known as "an exception to the rule".

The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of sailors will never go from a Seaman to Admiral, the pipeline is restricted heavily.

Is it impossible for a Seaman to become an Officer? Theoretically no, is it likely? Also no.

You can't just throw out an example of a Navy SEAL and pretend it's applicable to the entire Navy.
Dude one of the XOs on my former ship was a freaking former Enlisted guy. You are talking out of your ass right now. There are plenty of former Enlisted that are now O4 and Above. Any Veterans on this site can point to people in there former command and tell you that.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
The military can fire you at will to, they just have to be a bit more creative in the excuse used.
Not really no. Because they have to have an actual reason and it has to go through a lot of paperwork and the like.
At McD you can just get fired and be gone before the day ends.
Military? Months.
McD's also doesn't abridge your rights, cannot 'stop loss' you, and you can actually hold a bad manager at a McD's accountable far, far more easily.
Well the former is because you are signing your life to be owned by the government and being put in a position where you sre given a lot of power above that of a civie.

Multi-generational homes used to be the norm, with 2-3 gens all living in the same house, and military pay has not been even close to keeping up with modern housing prices, even with VA loans out there. So the 'live with you parents' as an insult is buying into the same Boomer illusion of easy home ownership at a young age or of each generation having a separate house as soon as possible.
The american dream my man. Live your own life without neeeding family there. I used the Army to escape a psychopath of a family member of mine.
Something many others used it for as well
And resorting to 'well you can party and live the single life', aka sleep around and get drunk doing stupid shit, is something people can get in college without the same risks. Sure they may end up in student debt, but that's most of the country now, and the military doesn't pay better or offer better QoL.
The military can make it so you don't go in debt... and you have obviously never been to Korea on a 4 day then because the amount of shit one can do there and wake up in a hotel room with a stranger or your buddies and be fine is great.
Most college towns you would probably be dead.
Yes, it does need to be said explicitly in the article, if you want to build a huge argument out of it.
Why?
Also, the QoL issues mentioned are not political, nor is the job market competition political.
It makes you have competition once you get out. Certs up the wazoo.
And QoL is the worst part. But it gets better if you make the best of it.

Because I recognize that these complaints are more than just things isolated to the Left or Lefty areas, and I recognize that the military is not going to try to only get people from the 'rah, rah' background as much, because the DoD wants a woke military.
it doesnt thiugh. It sees the pushback it is getting and the hard recrutiing it is making for itself and is basically staying apolitical and dies what cingress mandates.

They only want red state troops to be bodies for expeditionary forces, not their valued and vaunt Navy and Air Force with expensive shit and nicer living conditions. And the crayon-eaters in the Marine's are way more glamorous than the Army, also are in Stratcom while Army pukes aren't, because the Navy has nukes for Marine's to guard, and the Army really doesn't anymore.
the Army is the main fighting force of the USA and its goal is to bring destruction upon its enemies. Should I mention we are the only ones who will go the fighting in Europe. We are the main logistic capability of the US Military. Because the Navy and AF get it there, but we deal with it from there.
I mean, we even agree this seems to be the Army suffering the worst problems, and well, the Navy and Air Force are far more workable life-styles for wokies and way more 'cool' than most army jobs.
Eh, the AF has its own problem if having officers control most aspects where the US Army has mostly NCOs doing the work. AF basically have the problem of not letting NCOs be NCOs or Airmen being able to do things by themselves.
Maybe the Army can beg to get the A-10's and CAS jobs back to lure in more good PR.
Why?
We have majority of schools every body wants to do.
All SF for all branches goes to Benning and Campbell...
When's the last time a we had a flag officer who started as an E1?
It is possible
Hopeful and aspirational theoretical possibilities should not be pushed over realistic expected outcomes, and military PR doing that is part of why recruiting is so bad.

Don't sugar coat shit, don't give unrealistic expectations, and don't blow smoke up people's ass's for PR/morale purposes. Explain the suck, explain the depths of the suck, and explain that anyone who wants in needs to want more suck than good in life if they want to fit and make it a career.

Tear down all illusions and propaganda about service life, about military society in general, and let people make fully informed decisions.
I mean because life in the military sucks and recruiters often tell you this.
Marines are the ones who embellish it. Army often tells the truth. It doesn't help that most Rexruiters don't know what every job does.

Bacle, I work with a guy who was recruiting u til he became a warrant.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
Not really no. Because they have to have an actual reason and it has to go through a lot of paperwork and the like.
At McD you can just get fired and be gone before the day ends.
Military? Months.
Getting fired for no reason from McD's doesn't carry a dishonorable discharge label.

Or do I need to point out how the military tossed out people over the Wu Flu shit to illustrate my point about being able to fire people for BS reasons or no reason at all.
The american dream my man. Live your own life without neeeding family there. I used the Army to escape a psychopath of a family member of mine.
Something many others used it for as well
The 'American Dream' of Boomers, when individual home ownership was easy to get for people in their 20s/30s, and before so many blue collar jobs were shipped overseas.

Most people of the younger gens will only 'own' a home when they inherent one, if they are lucky.
The military can make it so you don't go in debt... and you have obviously never been to Korea on a 4 day then because the amount of shit one can do there and wake up in a hotel room with a stranger or your buddies and be fine is great.
Most college towns you would probably be dead.
No, most college towns you'd be in the drunk tank where you'd belong, if you are getting into 4 day benders and waking up with strangers.
the Army is the main fighting force of the USA and its goal is to bring destruction upon its enemies. Should I mention we are the only ones who will go the fighting in Europe. We are the main logistic capability of the US Military. Because the Navy and AF get it there, but we deal with it from there.
We are very unlikely to be fighting a land war in Europe ourselves any time soon, rather than supplying Ukraine. Because if the fighting in Europe spills outside Ukraine, that's Art 5 stuff anyway and then the ground war won't matter as much as air power and nukes.
Eh, the AF has its own problem if having officers control most aspects where the US Army has mostly NCOs doing the work. AF basically have the problem of not letting NCOs be NCOs or Airmen being able to do things by themselves.

Why?
We have majority of schools every body wants to do.
All SF for all branches goes to Benning and Campbell...

It is possible
Air Force has so many officers because they don't want to trust NCOs or Arimen with anything more expensive than they have to, for good reason.

Army guys fucking around with their shit has a lot less potential for massive property and equipment losses compared to the same fucking sort of actions with aircraft.
I mean because life in the military sucks and recruiters often tell you this.
Marines are the ones who embellish it. Army often tells the truth. It doesn't help that most Rexruiters don't know what every job does.

Bacle, I work with a guy who was recruiting u til he became a warrant.
Wait, so your buddy was the one who cold texted me last year...not really comfortable with that, given I never gave you or really anyone here, my phone number or name.

Not cool.

Edit: Seriously, are you just giving info to the DoD about people on this site for recruiting purposes?
 
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Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
I want a direct fucking answer @Zachowon, how did your recruiter buddy know my name and phone number, and are you feeding anyone else's protected info to the DoD for recruiting purposes?
 

Ixian

Well-known member
Dude one of the XOs on my former ship was a freaking former Enlisted guy. You are talking out of your ass right now. There are plenty of former Enlisted that are now O4 and Above. Any Veterans on this site can point to people in there former command and tell you that.

It just isn't that common.

And certainly Seaman to Admiral is very rare.

Sorry, but the example of an elite special forces operator moving up the pipeline to reach that rank doesn't really count as an example for the wider upward mobility in the Navy.

Show me an example of a bunch of Culinary Specialists or Machinist Mates becoming Officers and maybe I'd buy what you're selling.

But let's say we go with your narrative, that upward mobility is fairly smooth and certain.

It doesn't matter, because that isn't the perspective of the American citizenry, as clearly exemplified by the fact that no one wants to enlist, and retention rates are abysmal.
 

Sailor.X

Cold War Veteran
Founder
It just isn't that common.

And certainly Seaman to Admiral is very rare.

Sorry, but the example of an elite special forces operator moving up the pipeline to reach that rank doesn't really count as an example for the wider upward mobility in the Navy.

Show me an example of a bunch of Culinary Specialists or Machinist Mates becoming Officers and maybe I'd buy what you're selling.

But let's say we go with your narrative, that upward mobility is fairly smooth and certain.

It doesn't matter, because that isn't the perspective of the American citizenry, as clearly exemplified by the fact that no one wants to enlist, and retention rates are abysmal.
Really dude. Have you not heard of the US Navy LDO program and the Warrant Officer program and the Enlisted to Officer program. The Navy has 3 different programs to become an Officer not even counting OCS.
 

Robovski

Well-known member
To be fair, there aren't that many Admiral roles to fill to begin with. Is the argument that it should be easy to become Admiral? There are several (not easy) paths for enlisted personell to get to officer (from what I understand - I never served, the veterans I used to game with as a teen disuaded me from signing up), but it's a darn sight easier if you start as an officer but that should hardly surprise anyone, you are starting much higher up the ladder. Whole appeal of the ROTC (again, friends in HS in the 80's/early 90's) was to give you a leg up on service and officer candidacy.
 

Sailor.X

Cold War Veteran
Founder
My cousin Darrel graduated High School the year before me in 1989 and joined the Navy. He retired a Squadron Master Chief in 2020 after 31 years on Active Duty. He has full retirement and is set for life.
 

bintananth

behind a desk
I think this is the important point.
There are people who want to be in the military, and people who don't.
People are not all the same, nor should everyone be forced to be the same.

And I think this is one of those topics on which people are debating at cross-purposes, due to the underlying motivations of each side being somewhat alien to the other. Because, to put it simply: something that you see as good, the other guy sees as bad.

As an example of this point, I went and dug up the following comic:

quitsmoking1.jpg


quitsmoking2.jpg

quitsmoking3.jpg

quitsmoking4.jpg
I smoke cheap cigars and drink beer. Some righteous asshat telling me that I shouldn't drink beer might be met with my reply of "Sweety, an entire 6-pack of beer is healthier than than what you just added to your coffee."

EDIT: There's a reason why I stick to decaf without cream or sugar.
 
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