United States Unidentified Federal Agents conducting unmarked vehicle snatches of protestors in Portland

[Zachowon]

Alright I an here to set something straight.

Start by labeling the police vans as police vans. Just marking the vans would make this much less suspicious. This is a battle of perception.

No, this looks really bad, and perceptions are what matters. Also, what the hell is CBP doing here? Unless they are illegal immigrants, I don't get what they are doing.

It's not the dream of the Antifa being arrested, but of all the other ones. Just like most martyrs for causes would rather have lived.

So those cops are then doxxed, families attacked when they go shopping?
The members of Antifa warn thier own that Police are coming and they get the ones doing bad things out?

The battle for perception will not work here anymore. We have to take this head on and not play fair. As long as they get thier Mirands rights and A fair trail how they are arrested does not matter. Should I also mention the fact that this has been done many time in the past, but without a large media presence and not as many hand held recording devices it was harder to tell. Ever heard of the Men in Black? It was a refrence to Feds arresting people in the past.

I don't think there's anything good about unmarked vans disappearing people in the middle of the night (though spraying dye all over the protesters to identify and search them out later is a great idea and definitely should be implemented), but I also don't think there's anything good about no-knock warrants, which are the real example of police brutality in the United States. I'd see the two as basically linked behaviours and concepts which both need to be outlawed.

There are pros to the both of these. The Van's are the best way to be able to get Antofa and the like, because they cant be warned. No knocks are good in some cases, it just happens cops can be trigger happy and people give wrong information. (HUMINT is not trustworthy). No knock warrants are great at saving lives, and catching criminals when given proper information.

Because the police operates according to laws, and doing this is just the type of police state bs I hate.

Meanwhile, that CBP is arresting anyone is just wrong entirely, and blatantly against the law. They are limited to only arrest people violating the law in front of them, and people who are illegal immigrants.

So...operating within the laws to arrest domestic terrorists doesnt work. What do you want us to do? Target everyone with mass law enforcement and military presence and be a literal police state?

 

[StormEagle]

If we abandon the fundamental principles that define our country's values in the name of victory, we've already lost. If the only way to win is to surrender everything we're fighting for, what's even the point of fighting?

Principle is all well and good, but there comes a time when principle is more of a hindrance than anything else.

As I’ve said, and others have noted, these people want us dead, imprisoned, or jobless and homeless on the streets. And they think doing that to people is fucking funny. They’ll laugh as they beat you to death or slit your throat.

These sociopathic creatures are an outright malevolent force in America, that seek to terrorize into silence or destroy their opposition outright.

The principles you say we should champion instead, will only serve to doom the nation as they hold us back from using all the force available to us to crush these terrorists.

These officers operated well within the law and I see no reason to raise my voice in the defense of leftist scum.

 

[Valiran]

The thread's topic is concerning enough, but what makes it more concerning is how a number of posters here appear to have zero problems with disregarding laws and procedures so long as it screws over the group(s) they hate, as well as thinking that anyone on the political left is evil.

People, allow me to counter those thoughts with a particularly applicable quote:

William Roper: “So, now you give the Devil the benefit of law!"

Sir Thomas More: "Yes! What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?"

William Roper: "Yes, I'd cut down every law in England to do that!"

Sir Thomas More: “Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man's laws, not God's! And if you cut them down, and you're just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!”

I don't care what group they are, be it left, right, black, white, protester, or police; they all deserve the same protections and accountability under the law as anyone else, because when you start cutting down laws to get at whoever you think is the devil the only thing that remains to decide things will be force of arms, and that way lies barbarism.

 

[LordsFire]

The thread's topic is concerning enough, but what makes it more concerning is how a number of posters here appear to have zero problems with disregarding laws and procedures so long as it screws over the group(s) they hate, as well as thinking that anyone on the political left is evil.

People, allow me to counter those thoughts with a particularly applicable quote:

I don't care what group they are, be it left, right, black, white, protester, or police; they all deserve the same protections and accountability under the law as anyone else, because when you start cutting down laws to get at whoever you think is the devil the only thing that remains to decide things will be force of arms, and that way lies barbarism.

I agree.

It is also important to keep in mind, however, that the way that the law deals with singular perpetrators of petty crimes, differs from how it deals with organized crime.

And how it deals with violent insurrection.

And make no mistake, this is a violent insurrection. If these rioters had enough force available, they absolutely would have burned those Federal buildings to the ground. We have a very serious problem right now.

If these people getting arrested are being black-bagged and disappeared, no trial or due process of law, then we have another very serious problem.

Until I see evidence that is happening, I'm mildly concerned about this at most.

 

[Zachowon]

The thread's topic is concerning enough, but what makes it more concerning is how a number of posters here appear to have zero problems with disregarding laws and procedures so long as it screws over the group(s) they hate, as well as thinking that anyone on the political left is evil.

People, allow me to counter those thoughts with a particularly applicable quote:

I don't care what group they are, be it left, right, black, white, protester, or police; they all deserve the same protections and accountability under the law as anyone else, because when you start cutting down laws to get at whoever you think is the devil the only thing that remains to decide things will be force of arms, and that way lies barbarism.

What laws are they breaking?

If we do not do this the only method is to go full on police state and marital law, sending troops to protect federal buildings.
These people are breaking federal laws. They are getting arrested. Once inside the vehicle they are probably told what s going on. Just because they arnt doing it to the others is to protect themselves.

Plus these people are getting due process, and are being put in jail. See the guy who attacked the federal officers wih a hammer.

 

[Valiran]

I agree.

It is also important to keep in mind, however, that the way that the law deals with singular perpetrators of petty crimes, differs from how it deals with organized crime.

And how it deals with violent insurrection.

And make no mistake, this is a violent insurrection. If these rioters had enough force available, they absolutely would have burned those Federal buildings to the ground. We have a very serious problem right now.

If these people getting arrested are being black-bagged and disappeared, no trial or due process of law, then we have another very serious problem.

Until I see evidence that is happening, I'm mildly concerned about this at most.

This is why the situation is so upsetting to me. I can understand people being genuinely pissed the fuck off about systemic racism and support them deciding to protest until they're sore in the throat and then some, but I refuse to support anyone who engages in arson, doubly so when the buildings getting torched have nothing to do with the system being protested.

I'm twisted in opposite directions, and I fucking hate it.

 

[Deleted member 88]

Systematic racism is a canard used as an excuse for arson and insurrection.

It’s not a just cause for insurgency, subversion, rebellion, or anything else. In fact it’s a lie and is used to promote the former things.

 

[Cherico]

This is why the situation is so upsetting to me. I can understand people being genuinely pissed the fuck off about systemic racism and support them deciding to protest until they're sore in the throat and then some, but I refuse to support anyone who engages in arson, doubly so when the buildings getting torched have nothing to do with the system being protested.

I'm twisted in opposite directions, and I fucking hate it.

Were not dealing with ordinary criminals right now, we are not dealing with ordinary rioters.

These are organized terrorists who have the backing of a political party. This by the way isnt anything new, back in the old days the klu klux klan was used by the democrats as their personal enforcers. Antifa is a page from an old play book and we have no choice but to destroy them just like we destroyed the klan.

Shit situation all around.

 

[Deleted member]

The thread's topic is concerning enough, but what makes it more concerning is how a number of posters here appear to have zero problems with disregarding laws and procedures so long as it screws over the group(s) they hate, as well as thinking that anyone on the political left is evil.

People, allow me to counter those thoughts with a particularly applicable quote:

I don't care what group they are, be it left, right, black, white, protester, or police; they all deserve the same protections and accountability under the law as anyone else, because when you start cutting down laws to get at whoever you think is the devil the only thing that remains to decide things will be force of arms, and that way lies barbarism.

THANK YOU.

What is there to stop the next leftist administration from disappearing you in a van while you don't have your AR handy, gentlemen, now that the precedent is set? What is there? There is nothing! The law protects us all.

 

[Zachowon]

THANK YOU.

What is there to stop the next leftist administration from disappearing you in a van while you don't have your AR handy, gentlemen, now that the precedent is set? What is there? There is nothing! The law protects us all.

That those being taken have been proven commited a crime and if not released? they are given a fair trail?

 

[Valiran]

Were not dealing with ordinary criminals right now, we are not dealing with ordinary rioters.

These are organized terrorists who have the backing of a political party. This by the way isnt anything new, back in the old days the klu klux klan was used by the democrats as their personal enforcers. Antifa is a page from an old play book and we have no choice but to destroy them just like we destroyed the klan.

Shit situation all around.

To paraphrase The Expanse, there's Antifa and there's Antifa; as far as I can tell they're basically the Anonymous of left-wing protest groups. Some who call themselves Antifa want reasonable things, like shutting down genuine alt-right extremists and neo-Nazis wherever they rear their ugly heads, or not people as subhuman because they're a different race, have a different religion, are LGBTQI+, or anything else people will be bigots about.

Then there are the shitgibbons who seem to relish in conforming to every negative stereotype of militant left-wing radicals they can, and by doing so inflict more damage to the movement they claim to support than any right-wing extremists could hope to cause. They're why I don't consider myself part of the Antifa movement even if I'm opposed to fascism.

 

[Vaermina]

The thread's topic is concerning enough, but what makes it more concerning is how a number of posters here appear to have zero problems with disregarding laws and procedures so long as it screws over the group(s) they hate, as well as thinking that anyone on the political left is evil.

No laws were disregarded or broken Valiran.

There is no law requiring law enforcement identify itself under such circumstances, and it's legal for law enforcement to hold someone for 24 hours without charging them.

 

[Zachowon]

To paraphrase The Expanse, there's Antifa and there's Antifa; as far as I can tell they're basically the Anonymous of left-wing protest groups. Some who call themselves Antifa want reasonable things, like shutting down genuine alt-right extremists and neo-Nazis wherever they rear their ugly heads, or not people as subhuman because they're a different race, have a different religion, are LGBTQI+, or anything else people will be bigots about.

Then there are the shitgibbons who seem to relish in conforming to every negative stereotype of militant left-wing radicals they can, and by doing so inflict more damage to the movement they claim to support than any right-wing extremists could hope to cause. They're why I don't consider myself part of the Antifa movement even if I'm opposed to fascism.

*Points to every single ANTIFA twitter calling for violence, planning violence and the like*
One can be against white supremacists and the like, and not be ANTIFA. Especially now, if one wants to be ANTIFA, they better learn quick that they are joining a group being led by extremists that do extremist things...

No laws were disregarded or broken Valiran.

There is no law requiring law enforcement identify itself under such circumstances, and it's legal for law enforcement to hold someone for 24 hours without charging them.

48 hours without an arrest warrant.

 

[MelancholicMechanicus]

Except there is a law here protecting them and letting them know. They were given warnings, they were told to stop. They are being allowed lawyers as far as I know and they are not just being set straight to GitMo.

I understand the issue, I really do. My problem is that this is not the dreaded Gestapo it is being made out to be. These agents did not appear out of thin air to arrest random people for vague crimes against the state, they were sent in after a local law and authorities refused to deal with the situation. Give the downright Orwellian things the law technically allowed Trump and the federal government to do in case of "terrorism and threats to national security" (some of which Obama approved) this is downright mild. May I remind you that the people in CHAZ and CHOP could legally have been shot by US forces? Trump and his administration have been downright soft on these people. They are being given every single chance possible to stop and leave. Antifa isn't Al Qeada or ISIS where being a member is such a big deal, if they just stop rioting and instead change back to being a keyboard warrior and lawyer can argue they are no longer part of the "terrorist" Antifa. But they, won't stop because in the end they want to get arrested.

You have to remember as well that these are commies. They will punch you, and when you punch them back they will claim victim hood and try to get you in trouble. They want this, this is pretty much their equivalent of achieving sainthood. This is pretty much the "proof" they need to justify to both themselves and their little group that they are "standing up to evil ameriKKKa and fighting oppression". I say give it to them. Let them see exactly what being a prick brings you.

 

[Zachowon]

Except there is a law here protecting them and letting them know. They were given warnings, they were told to stop. They are being allowed lawyers as far as I know and they are not just being set straight to GitMo.

I understand the issue, I really do. My problem is that this is not the dreaded Gestapo it is being made out to be. These agents did not appear out of thin air to arrest random people for vague crimes against the state, they were sent in after a local law and authorities refused to deal with the situation. Give the downright Orwellian things the law technically allowed Trump and the federal government to do in case of "terrorism and threats to national security" (some of which Obama approved) this is downright mild. May I remind you that the people in CHAZ and CHOP could legally have been shot by US forces? Trump and his administration have been downright soft on these people. They are being given every single chance possible to stop and leave. Antifa isn't Al Qeada or ISIS where being a member is such a big deal, if they just stop rioting and instead change back to being a keyboard warrior and lawyer can argue they are no longer part of the "terrorist" Antifa. But they, won't stop because in the end they want to get arrested.

You have to remember as well that these are commies. They will punch you, and when you punch them back they will claim victim hood and try to get you in trouble. They want this, this is pretty much their equivalent of achieving sainthood. This is pretty much the "proof" they need to justify to both themselves and their little group that they are "standing up to evil ameriKKKa and fighting oppression". I say give it to them. Let them see exactly what being a prick brings you.

It should be shown that local law enforcement even when making arrests, the people above them let those people go and then they come and join this.
Everyone that has been arrested by the feds is because a federal building has been under attack. Federal crimes, something the local law can not help get them out of.
If they were not attacking federal buildings, attacking federal officers, they would be fine.

 

[Certified_Heterosexual]

I'm no fan of the federal government, but I'm even less a fan of Antifa.

 

[Bacle]

THANK YOU.

What is there to stop the next leftist administration from disappearing you in a van while you don't have your AR handy, gentlemen, now that the precedent is set? What is there? There is nothing! The law protects us all.

So you are going to completely ignore the reasons this is happening, mainly that local LEO's have been told to stand down despite attacks on Federal property and weeks of destructive demonstrations?

This didn't happen without warning, is operating within the bounds of dealing with domestic terrorists, and most importantly, no one is being 'disappeared'. They ID as cops when they detain someone, so despite the unmarked vehicles, this isn't just goon squads grabbing people off the street.

Laws are being broken and not enforced all over Portland, and the Feds have come in to deal with what the locals won't, in ways that do not allow ANTIFA and the like to dox/harass cops/their families.

If the Far-Left get enough power then actually go to the point of actual goon squads and 'disappearing' people, things are FUBAR already and no amount of laws or precedent will stop them.

 

[Zachowon]

So you are going to completely ignore the reasons this is happening, mainly that local LEO's have been told to stand down despite attacks on Federal property and weeks of destructive demonstrations?

This didn't happen without warning, is operating within the bounds of dealing with domestic terrorists, and most importantly, no one is being 'disappeared'. They ID as cops when they detain someone, so despite the unmarked vehicles, this isn't just goon squads grabbing people off the street.

Laws are being broken and not enforced all over Portland, and the Feds have come in to deal with what the locals won't, in ways that do not allow ANTIFA and the like to dox/harass cops/their families.

If the Far-Left get enough power then actually go to the point of actual goon squads and 'disappearing' people, things are FUBAR already and no amount of laws or precedent will stop them.

Thank you!

Everyone that has been taken by the unmarked feds has been jailed and charged with federal crimes, or has been let go for not doing anything..

 

[TyrantTriumphant]

THANK YOU.

What is there to stop the next leftist administration from disappearing you in a van while you don't have your AR handy, gentlemen, now that the precedent is set? What is there? There is nothing! The law protects us all.

If I had any expectation that precedent or laws would protect me if the Democrats win in November then it would worry me quite a bit. But I gave up that hope years ago.

 

[Deleted member 88]

Their not actually being dissappeared though?

Their just being held for a few hours.

Like I wish they were being arrested, and actually imprisoned but all this hue and cry about “secret police” and “kidnappings” is just so much bullshit.

Like frankly they shouldn’t be treated with the velvet gloves they are, their insurrectionists and warrant the severe punishment that brings in any healthy society.