United States Unidentified Federal Agents conducting unmarked vehicle snatches of protestors in Portland

Big Steve

For the Republic!
Founder


My only comment is that this is such a bad idea and such a questionable use of authority that whoever's behind this needs to be fired and blacklisted from law enforcement, if not charged with unlawful abduction. Whatever you feel about protestors and if you are skeptical of whether or not they're peaceful, this is most definitely not the way to restore law and order. This only serves to degrade the moral position of the forces of law and order even further, IMHO.
 

Big Steve

For the Republic!
Founder
I'm not sure what the outrage you're implying here really is. The use of unmarked police vehicles for a variety of police operations is hardly something new, uncommon or legally dubious.

Yeah, use of unmarked police vehicles is done in a variety of operations, but typically speaking, they're supposed to be used for things like clandestine surveillance, not snatching people off the streets. Or are you going to say you have no problem with an unmarked van full of armed men driving up and dragging people off the street as opposed to driving up, presenting their ID, and openly arresting them on an actual charge? Because armed government officers without open ID snatching people like that is something one usually associates with dictatorships.

Nor is holding people for a couple hourse without charging them and then letting them go.

Nice to know we haven't graduated to disappearing the people who get snatched off the streets by unmarked vans. They just get their liberty snatched for a few hours for dubious purposes before they're released. This really re-assures me.[/sarcasm]

Because typically, when authorities hold people "for a couple hours", they do so because they are at least under suspicion of having committed a crime and are being interviewed, and that includes finding out just what they're accused or suspected of having done. Alternatively, it's to protect material witnesses or the like.
 

Vaermina

Well-known member
Nice to know we haven't graduated to disappearing the people who get snatched off the streets by unmarked vans. They just get their liberty snatched for a few hours for dubious purposes before they're released. This really re-assures me.[/sarcasm]

Because typically, when authorities hold people "for a couple hours", they do so because they are at least under suspicion of having committed a crime and are being interviewed, and that includes finding out just what they're accused or suspected of having done. Alternatively, it's to protect material witnesses or the like.
These people apparently were under suspicion, CBP posted a statement about it.

 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
Yeah, use of unmarked police vehicles is done in a variety of operations, but typically speaking, they're supposed to be used for things like clandestine surveillance, not snatching people off the streets.
What they were doing is security around federal property in a very... dodgy and potentially dangerous situation, with crowds of people some of which are willing to use violence against police and civilians.
Or are you going to say you have no problem with an unmarked van full of armed men driving up and dragging people off the street as opposed to driving up, presenting their ID, and openly arresting them on an actual charge? Because armed government officers without open ID snatching people like that is something one usually associates with dictatorships.
And that touches upon the part of the story we don't know.
Namely, it *probably* wasn't just some random people going about their day getting snatched.

If the random person who happened to be dressed in black and happened to be "protesting all day" was open and honest about what they were doing the whole day exactly, and what they were possibly filmed doing in previous days, perhaps we would have a far better idea about why were these people snatched in such a way.
But alas, if such interesting facts are missing from this story or not, the people providing the perspective for this story could not be trusted to tell us.
 

Big Steve

For the Republic!
Founder
The article does state they were protestors at the federal courthouse, and that they claim they were peaceful protestors.

So, let's assume Pettibone wasn't just a peaceful protestor but committed a crime, or is suspected of committing a crime. Vandalism on federal property or some such. Are you saying that justifies a snatch crew in an unmarked vehicle instead of a car with federal plates pulling up and openly-identified FBI or US Marshals arresting Pettibone?


These people apparently were under suspicion, CBP posted a statement about it.


So they say it's a violent mob that prevented them from arresting Pettibone for assaults on federal property and/or federal officers. And yet, he was released without charge a few hours later, meaning that their evidence must've been so unconvincing that they knew they didn't have a case. And yet, they spent the resources going after him anyway.

I'm sorry, but I just don't buy this was some legitimate arrest where the authorities had no choice but to stoop to the kind of tactics one usually gets in a Third World dictatorship, and after going to all the trouble they just let the suspect go without charges even if they were apparently certain earlier he was a threat. This really sounds more like an attempt to intimidate and terrify people in Portland so they'll quit protesting.
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
For the past six weeks local law enforcement in Portland has refused to enforce the law on a nightly basis. This has resulted in tens of thousands of dollars worth of damage in vandalism, spikes in gun crime and the general breakdown of law and order in general. A lot of this has been focused on federal facilities like courthouses and federal buildings. Just a few days ago we had video of some burly nitwit attempting to hammer in the brains of a Federal officer as he was coming out of a courthouse exit. And Portland is just one city were local authorities have yielded control of large swaths of their city to vandals and looters.

It's pretty clear the standard operating procedure for most Democratic Mayors is to twiddle thumbs, let the costs rise, vandalism continue and write off the deaths of any involved as being Trumps fault so they can ride the Blue Wave in November since their party is electorally secure in pretty much every major urban area.

I feel really sorry for the individuals who were wrongly picked up by federal officers and detained for a few hours unreasonably. Thankfully they have a full array of discount legal services, celebrity backing and the full force of the news media and pathetically incompetent municipal government supporting them.
 
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Vaermina

Well-known member
So they say it's a violent mob that prevented them from arresting Pettibone for assaults on federal property and/or federal officers. And yet, he was released without charge a few hours later, meaning that their evidence must've been so unconvincing that they knew they didn't have a case. And yet, they spent the resources going after him anyway.

I'm sorry, but I just don't buy this was some legitimate arrest where the authorities had no choice but to stoop to the kind of tactics one usually gets in a Third World dictatorship, and after going to all the trouble they just let the suspect go without charges even if they were apparently certain earlier he was a threat. This really sounds more like an attempt to intimidate and terrify people in Portland so they'll quit protesting.
That's not what they said at all... Did you even read the statement? :confused:
 

Terthna

Professional Lurker
The article does state they were protestors at the federal courthouse, and that they claim they were peaceful protestors.

So, let's assume Pettibone wasn't just a peaceful protestor but committed a crime, or is suspected of committing a crime. Vandalism on federal property or some such. Are you saying that justifies a snatch crew in an unmarked vehicle instead of a car with federal plates pulling up and openly-identified FBI or US Marshals arresting Pettibone?




So they say it's a violent mob that prevented them from arresting Pettibone for assaults on federal property and/or federal officers. And yet, he was released without charge a few hours later, meaning that their evidence must've been so unconvincing that they knew they didn't have a case. And yet, they spent the resources going after him anyway.

I'm sorry, but I just don't buy this was some legitimate arrest where the authorities had no choice but to stoop to the kind of tactics one usually gets in a Third World dictatorship, and after going to all the trouble they just let the suspect go without charges even if they were apparently certain earlier he was a threat. This really sounds more like an attempt to intimidate and terrify people in Portland so they'll quit protesting.
I seriously doubt this was an attempt at intimidation; because if they were going to do it, why now, after this has been going on for months, and they've refused to do anything to stop them? And why in such a roundabout manner instead of, say, directly confronting the rioters?
 

FriedCFour

PunishedCFour
Founder
My only comment is that this is such a bad idea and such a questionable use of authority that whoever's behind this needs to be fired and blacklisted from law enforcement, if not charged with unlawful abduction. Whatever you feel about protestors and if you are skeptical of whether or not they're peaceful, this is most definitely not the way to restore law and order. This only serves to degrade the moral position of the forces of law and order even further, IMHO.
WTF I love the Feds now. This is absolutely the right thing to do with communist terrorists.
 

Big Steve

For the Republic!
Founder
That's not what they said at all... Did you even read the statement? :confused:

I did. Let's all read it, shall we?

"While the U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) respects every American’s right to protest peacefully, violence and civil unrest will not be tolerated. Violent anarchists have organized events in Portland over the last several weeks with willful intent to damage and destroy federal property, as well as injure federal officers and agents. These criminal actions will not be tolerated.

I'm going to leave aside the fact that even an active peaceful protest movement can easily be defined as "civil unrest", since it usually reflects - shockingly - a lack of restfulness among a section of the populace. This statement is otherwise fine. It's kind of the job description for the forces of law and order to uphold the law, which usually doesn't permit violent attacks or toppling statues or the like.

CBP agents had information indicating the person in the video was suspected of assaults against federal agents or destruction of federal property. Once CBP agents approached the suspect, a large and violent mob moved towards their location. For everyone’s safety, CBP agents quickly moved the suspect to a safer location for further questioning. The CBP agents identified themselves and were wearing CBP insignia during the encounter. The names of the agents were not displayed due to recent doxing incidents against law enforcement personnel who serve and protect our country.

So what they said was.... someone (Pettibone, unless this statement was about another video of someone getting snatched off the street) was suspected of assaults against federal agents or destruction of federal property. Which was part of my earlier statement. They said a "large and violent mob" interfered with their arrest. Again, part of my earlier statement. They went on to state their agents did identify themselves and wore insignia. Which, if true, would alleviate partially my concerns (since they're still pulling unmarked van snatch jobs of people off the street). Finally, they justify the agents not showing their names due to doxxing incidents. I can understand their desire to protect their agents. OTOH, unidentified federal agents who can't be named, even if their agency can be, sort of undermines the whole "accountability" thing that's supposed to be a check on their behavior, so I'm a little worried about the precedent regardless.

The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) and its components will continue to work tirelessly to reestablish law and order. The Federal Protective Service (FPS) is the lead government agency that CBP personnel are supporting. CBP personnel have been deployed to Portland in direct support of the Presidential Executive Order and the newly established DHS Protecting American Communities Task Force (PACT). CBP law enforcement personnel have been trained and cross designated under FPS legal authority 40 U.S.C. § 1315."

And the justification for their conduct with the relevant laws, with their current employment being justified by that bane of our constitutional system, the Executive Order (and no, I didn't like Obama using them either).

So, you accused me of not reading it. I did. What, pray tell, did I miss? Did you object to my conclusions, or my remark about their failure to press charges? If yes, sure, we can debate that. It'd have been nice if you did instead of accusing me of not reading the material.


I seriously doubt this was an attempt at intimidation; because if they were going to do it, why now, after this has been going on for months, and they've refused to do anything to stop them? And why in such a roundabout manner instead of, say, directly confronting the rioters?

Trump's only recently sent in federal authorities to Portland, apparently. Confronting the protestors with only federal authorities on hand is likely unviable for reasons of sheer numbers, and if most are just peaceful protestors, going after them would make more harmful headlines.

Depending on how much you trust their statement and the news articles, it's possible they figured they had a ringleader or something, but once they had him in custody they realized they were terribly wrong (the Oregon press article has Pettibone claiming one of them remarked "This is a whole lot of nothing" when inspecting the items in Pettibone's possession) and ultimately released him.

Ultimately, my problem remains that this entire method is just messed up. It's skeevy as hell, and even Trump supporters should be leery of it both because of how it might blowback on him and the precedents it might set (one day the shoe will be on the other foot, does anyone want a Democratic president declaring right-wing protestors to be domestic terrorists and federal agencies snatching them in unmarked vans?).

WTF I love the Feds now. This is absolutely the right thing to do with communist terrorists.

....mokusatsu.

I see someone forgot about the fact Antifa were deemed domestic terrorists not too long ago.

This is the whirlwind Antifa types have sewed for themselves.

I didn't forget. But 1) it assumes Pettibone and anyone else picked up in this way are actually Antifa and 2) it presumes that this is an acceptable way to arrest suspected members/participants in terroristic Antifa activities.

Because, uh, no, I don't consider jit an acceptable way to deal with it. You've got a suspected member of Antifa or someone suspected of committing a crime against federal property or agents? Maybe try arresting them in a way that doesn't seem like it came out of a movie about a dictatorship!
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
I didn't forget. But 1) it assumes Pettibone and anyone else picked up in this way are actually Antifa and 2) it presumes that this is an acceptable way to arrest suspected members/participants in terroristic Antifa activities.

Because, uh, no, I don't consider jit an acceptable way to deal with it. You've got a suspected member of Antifa or someone suspected of committing a crime against federal property or agents? Maybe try arresting them in a way that doesn't seem like it came out of a movie about a dictatorship!
Some of us still care about liberty.
Have you considered that the Antifa types, and their black-block allies at events like this, have forced these measures due to the danger to law enforcement and civilians, given their doxxing habits, propensity actually use firearms against cops these days, and the fact the mayor tacitly endorsed the violence?

Have you considered for a second that these fucks want to tear down our Republic and are not shy about saying so?

Have you considered that this is the cops refusing to give these agitators (legit protestors don't have much to fear, agitators and vandals do, don't conflate the them) more info for Far-Left allies to use to target their families?

This shit isn't really happening outside the worst of the Far-Left urban area's that have local gov's who are effectively in cohoots with the rioters and agitators. This is the Feds being done letting partisan hackery on the part of local govs endanger Federal property and personnel.

You want to be upset about this, be upset that the actions of the local gov telling local cops to stand down and refusing to condemn the rioters and agitators for what they are, due to partisan bias and a desire to use this to screw with Trump.
 

StormEagle

Well-known member
As regrettable as these methods may be, I can’t help thinking that these leftist terrorists have largely brought this on themselves. When officers identify themselves nowadays, there’s a tendency among the Twitter paint drinkers to dox, harass, and threaten any law enforcement involved in bagging their “comrades”.

At this point, this may be the only way the feds can carry out their operations safely and without interference from the communist allies in the media, various leftist lawyer organizations, and outright harassment from Antifa retards.

And quite honestly and frankly, my usual sympathy for people that are bagged like this has been ground down by the back to back weeks of burning buildings, statues getting torn down, and leftist harassment, assault, and actual murder of anyone and everyone that even mildly disagrees with them.

They have sown the wind, let them reap the whirlwind.
 

Big Steve

For the Republic!
Founder
Have you considered that the Antifa types, and their black-block allies at events like this, have forced these measures due to the danger to law enforcement and civilians, given their doxxing habits, propensity actually use firearms against cops these days, and the fact the mayor tacitly endorsed the violence?

So that justifies behaving like a dictatorship?

Have you considered for a second that these fucks want to tear down our Republic and are not shy about saying so?

Ah, so we should tear it down ourselves fighting them, then?

Have you considered that this is the cops refusing to give these agitators (legit protestors don't have much to fear, agitators and vandals do, don't conflate the them) more info for Far-Left allies to use to target their families?

I'm not as sanguine as you that law enforcement authorities are recognizing distinctions between peaceful protestors and rioters, for one. And I did comment about the issue of doxxing and that it's understandable to want to protect from that. I just pointed out how this practice will undermine holding law enforcement officers to account in the event they break the law.

This shit isn't really happening outside the worst of the Far-Left urban area's that have local gov's who are effectively in cohoots with the rioters and agitators. This is the Feds being done letting partisan hackery on the part of local govs endanger Federal property and personnel.

They're being idiots, and yes, the Feds have a duty to protect their property and personnel. But that doesn't justify acting like jackboots! I mean, they didn't even keep the guy and press formal charges, so what was it all for?! They either got the wrong man, or they acted before they had the evidence arranged!

You want to be upset about this, be upset that the actions of the local gov telling local cops to stand down and refusing to condemn the rioters and agitators for what they are, due to partisan bias and a desire to use this to screw with Trump.

As I said, they're being idiots, but that doesn't mean the Feds have to put on jackboots.
 

CarlManvers2019

Writers Blocked Douchebag
I see someone forgot about the fact Antifa were deemed domestic terrorists not too long ago.

This is the whirlwind Antifa types have sewed for themselves.

Problem is, there are too many of them, can you arrest that many people

Would you?
 

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