Transgender Rights

D

Deleted member 1

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It concerns me it's possible the rates may be boosted by modern living and plastics. It also concerns me that Chinese eunuchs were into premarin. That suggests people can also be socialized into desiring an opposite-sex body, because it's not likely the boys selected to be eunuchs had trans-phenotype-brains at a higher rate than the general population.

I think an important caveat is that actually being a eunuch in China was highly self-selecting; many people voluntarily sought it out to receive chances for prosperity and promotion in life and to reduce the burden on their families. It would be quite amazing to assume that the rate of transsexuality in those who voluntarily seek out castration would remain the same as in those who do not. I understand that men tend to feel this outcome to life is generally a bad one.
 

Francis Urquhart

Well-known member
As both a trans girl *and* a cognitive science major
One thing I have noticed (this is purely an anecdotal impression) from living in countries where the transgender population is both larger and more socially prominent than in Europe and the US is that trans-women in particular tend to be unusually tall. 5ft 10 to 6ft is not uncommon which is rare for Asian countries. This is such a common situation that its one of the "tells" for recognizing transwomen. I'd be interested to know if any studies have been done that would confirm this subjective impression.
 
D

Deleted member 1

Guest
One thing I have noticed (this is purely an anecdotal impression) from living in countries where the transgender population is both larger and more socially prominent than in Europe and the US is that trans-women in particular tend to be unusually tall. 5ft 10 to 6ft is not uncommon which is rare for Asian countries. This is such a common situation that its one of the "tells" for recognizing transwomen. I'd be interested to know if any studies have been done that would confirm this subjective impression.

Eunuchs were also taller than the average population.
 

7 Gold Eye Heals the Wise

The First Weeaboo
Founder
Citations to these studies, please.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
So, disclaimer before I say anything else; I'm bisexual, or at least bi-curious, and had sexual experiences with men long before women. I understand being open about how I feel on this subject is unlikely to be taken well by trans-persons and their supporters. I will not pretend to be unbiased on this topic, nor will I pretend to care about being politically correct about it as well.

With that out of the way, this is my take:

As far as I am concerned, there are only two biological sexes, male and female, and a number of sexual orientations. 'Trans' is a sexual orientation, nothing more or less, and I will not pretend otherwise. The only other 'sex' I will accept as legit is hermaphidite, and only if they have both a functioning uterus and functioning testicles.

I feel the trans community is a toxic rider on the LGB's, and as Dave Chappelle put it 'makes the trip take longer for everyone'. I've also had a bad experience with a trans-person who pulled the 'also, I have a dick' move at about the last minute; this did not make my view of the trans community any more favorable.

If I want to be with a man or woman, I want them to be biologically male or female, not claiming to be something they are not. No amount of hormones, surgeries, or the like will make a man into a woman or a woman into a man.

Sure, there are genetic flukes that cause sexual abnormalities in some people, and I do feel bad for the situation that puts them in.

But I am tired of being asked to pretend a man is a woman, or the opposite, just because saying the truth hurts their self-esteem. I am sick of people acting like the norms around bathrooms, which are in place for safety reasons more than anything, are 'oppressing' the trans community.

Trans have the same rights as everyone else, no more, no less. However, they have no 'right' to force others to spend money to accommodate them in unique ways.
 

ShieldWife

Marchioness
Eunuchs were also taller than the average population.
Testosterone plays a part in puberty in telling long bones to stop growing, fusing the epiphyseal plates, and so a eunuch who is castrated before he is finished developing will likely be taller than he would be otherwise. Health conditions which reduce a pubescent male’s testosterone can also increase height.

Could this be related to trans-women being taller? I’m not sure, seems reasonable though.
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade

Interesting. You claimed that "All studies I have read say the opposite. ", yet the articles you cite explicitly mention multiple studies saying exactly what you claimed *no* studies you know of showed (unless you're talking very, very specifically about the broad claims that Halleck made, which aren't the same thing as what I said). Moreover, none of the links you provided as citations even peripherally support *either* of the further claims you made, and two of the three links you provided are merely popular science articles which are absolutely worthless as serious scientific evidence.

Edit: The one actual scientific article is. . . well, he cites Blanchard's 1987 work as a well-established consensus to work from, which shows that he's clearly unfamiliar with the field at large. Blanchard's etiology has long been completely discredited and pretty much no one but Blanchard uses it, especially since Blanchard's definition of "homosexuality" in trans patients is *literally backwards*. Moreover, the central claim of Blanchard's etiology is that it is *axiomatic* that no trans person actually identifies with their claimed gender identity, something which is refuted by *every* bit of the neuroanatomical evidence no matter which interpretation you take on it.

Edit 2: As far as bottom lines go, I'm pretty sure you've got it backwards because you're misinterpreting Savic, who in turn has a significant chunk of his data turned upside-down because he missed the fact that Blanchard's etiology is *backwards* and defines *straight* transgender women as "homosexual".

Seriously. Blanchard's etiology is best described in lay terms as "completely ass-backwards". Blanchard posits that *trans men do not exist* because "biological women never have fetishes", and that *categorically all* trans women are actually male-identified -- they're either actually gay men who falsely transition to gain sexual access to straight men, or men with a feminization fetish. Blanchard's "research" was based on very literally blackmailing trans women to say what he wanted so that they could get approval letters for surgery, and explicitly rejecting all evidence against his theory on the claim that trans women axiomatically lie about their gender identity, and so are only credible when their stories line up with his etiology.
 
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D

Deleted member 1

Guest
Testosterone plays a part in puberty in telling long bones to stop growing, fusing the epiphyseal plates, and so a eunuch who is castrated before he is finished developing will likely be taller than he would be otherwise. Health conditions which reduce a pubescent male’s testosterone can also increase height.

Could this be related to trans-women being taller? I’m not sure, seems reasonable though.

It would certainly be my operating hypothesis.
 

7 Gold Eye Heals the Wise

The First Weeaboo
Founder
have read say the opposite. ", yet the articles you cite explicitly mention multiple studies saying exactly what you claimed *no* studies you know of showed
Look at what Gurney Halleck said:
transgenderism works is that horomone fluctuations in the womb lead to the brain literally developing in the mold of one sex while the body develops in the mold of the other sex. We're not talking a "few crossed wires" but rather something more like the brain as an organic whole fitting that of one gender.

Trans brain scans show that they have difference with the bit that controls motor functions, learning, and feedback(somatic nervous system).

Savic:
They found that GM volume in the putamen was more pronounced in MtF-TR than in male and female controls, particularly on the right side (Luders, Sanchez, et al. 2009). While the GM in the putamen did not differ significantly between male and female controls, these data, nevertheless, emphasized the possibility that gender dysphoria could be associated with an altered anatomy also in brain regions located outside the hypothalamus.
In a previous study, we found that homosexual healthy men differ in certain aspects of cerebral anatomy and function from heterosexual male controls (Savic et al. 2005; Berglund et al. 2006; Savic and Lindstrom 2008). Considering that homosexuality and transsexuality are two different phenomena with presumably different underlying neurobiology, and positing that MtF-TR would have feminized brain, we deemed it relevant to first investigate only nonhomosexual MtF-TR and avoid possible confounds related to homosexuality
This agreement with several earlier observations of sex dimorphism in male and female controls adds validity to the present findings in MtF-TR even when considering that the sample size was relatively low. These findings argue against a sex atypical dimorphism in MtF-TR, at least in those who are not androphillic.
 

Nitramy

The Umbrella that Smites Evil
Is it just me or does it smell an awful lot like the "personal is political" here?

In every message board I've been to, it's always the cis people who try to meet halfway. Never have I once seen a trans poster say "all right, you are correct there, I was in error, my bad", almost as if any admission to that effect would be a blow against their agenda.

(Fuck's sake, take one on the fucking chin every now and then, it won't cause your entire movement to collapse.)
 

Battlegrinder

Someday we will win, no matter what it takes.
Moderator
Staff Member
Founder
Obozny
Is it just me or does it smell an awful lot like the "personal is political" here?

In every message board I've been to, it's always the cis people who try to meet halfway. Never have I once seen a trans poster say "all right, you are correct there, I was in error, my bad", almost as if any admission to that effect would be a blow against their agenda.

(Fuck's sake, take one on the fucking chin every now and then, it won't cause your entire movement to collapse.)

Well, most minorities, and in particular ones like trans people who come off as being, for lack of a better word, "wrong" to the rest of the population, have a natural desire to avoid giving those people ammo. Like, I was very clear to say that Johnathan Yaniv is a freak who's maliciously taking advantage of the laws intended to help trans people, and that he doesn't represent the norm for thier community....but I think we both know the next time someone in the states wants to try and pass a bathroom bill or something like it, the first thing they'll say is "well, there was this one dude up in Canada who..." and otherwise never let go of this one example (because Yaniv is in fact a living example of everything they said would happen). You can understand why from a cold, hard, realpolitik perspective, people would be tempted to hold their nose and back Yaniv rather than let him be used as example against them for the rest of forever.

This mindset is hardly exclusive to them, I know a lot of people on the right will say you should never apologise, never admit wrongdoing, never back down, and never show weakness, because SJWs never forgive and never forget, you should dig in your heels and always fight them. Any community that feels it's under siege will have a less than concliatiory attitude toward a "comprise" that might leave them worse off (easy example, pro-gun groups).
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
Is it just me or does it smell an awful lot like the "personal is political" here?

It smells an awful lot like I'm going out of my way to explain objectively established scientific facts and medical protocols, and haven't even mentioned my personal opinions in this thread.

In every message board I've been to, it's always the cis people who try to meet halfway. Never have I once seen a trans poster say "all right, you are correct there, I was in error, my bad", almost as if any admission to that effect would be a blow against their agenda.

When "meet halfway" is framed as "concede that you're delusional, depraved freaks and/or should be eliminated from society", then no, you're not going to see very much compromise.

As for meeting halfway on the factual science, did I not *just* freaking say that Halleck's claims were overly broad?

I also observe that cis posers are consistently very superficial in their understanding of trans issues, because they have the luxury of treating it as a minor political issue rather than "this is literally my life". Moreover, I have observed that they heavily focus on "anti-identity politics" with little regard for the actual science and medicine; indeed, they are eager to outright dismiss the scientific facts as "overly technical" whenever they go beyond suitably simplistic generalities.

You do know that pushy liberal Karens can and will find a way to subvert actual clinical protocols, right?

If you actually live in the Karen edition of Spherical Cow World, then you have my deepest sympathies. However, in the practical everyday, if we limited medical treatment based on breathless hypotheticals about not having an infinite ability to prevent abuse, then no medical treatment would ever be available for anything.

Like, I was very clear to say that Johnathan Yaniv is a freak who's maliciously taking advantage of the laws intended to help trans people, and that he doesn't represent the norm for thier community....but I think we both know the next time someone in the states wants to try and pass a bathroom bill or something like it, the first thing they'll say is "well, there was this one dude up in Canada who..." and otherwise never let go of this one example (because Yaniv is in fact a living example of everything they said would happen).

That is a good point. However, I would actually argue that Yaniv is an artificial example, in the sense that he's a malicious troll doing things in bad faith, and that this should not be taken as an actual counterpoint to transgender rights any more than the murderous rampage of Anders Breivik should be taken as an actual counterpoint to conservative politics.

I would also argue that there's little actual need to talk about Yaniv. There are always going to be anecdotal examples of some sort, because no demographic has ever been or ever will be totally free of people ranging from assholes to the truly predatory. The way you argue against that is to point out that these are edge cases, that there is a huge double standard in demanding over-the-top "solutions" to these edge cases which are not brought up in equivalent edge cases for other groups, and that there are already laws and enforcement mechanisms in place to handle predatory behavior.

In other words: Yaniv exists. But if Yaniv's existence "shows" that trans people shouldn't be allowed to use public restrooms, does not the existence of vastly larger numbers of cisgender sexual predators show that cis people shouldn't be allowed to use public restrooms either?
 
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ShieldWife

Marchioness
I think a problem with this discussion is that modern people have a distorted idea of what “rights” are. I fully support the rights of trans people. They shouldn’t be attacked, they shouldn’t be persecuted, they should be able to advocate for their positions openly, they have the right to do as they will with their own bodies, etc.

These are rights and trans people should have those rights like anybody else. What they don’t have the right to do is force themselves on others, including forcing others to accept claims about their own biology and/or psychology.

You don’t have the right to a job, you don’t have the right to a house, you don’t have the right to have somebody wax your genitals, you don’t have the right to a wedding cake, you don’t have the right to compete in some sort of sport, you don’t have the right to anybody’s company or acceptance, you don’t have the right to anybody else’s property or labor.
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
Except by that definition, all of what are commonly regarded as civil rights should be stripped from cis persons as well.

Because the right to equal treatment in society is broadly acknowledged as being a civil right, apparently except where trans people are concerned.

Because the exact same rights that you're denouncing as "forcing trans people on others" are nothing more than what cis people themselves have enjoyed for over half a century as the rights guaranteed under the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
 

ShieldWife

Marchioness
Except by that definition, all of what are commonly regarded as civil rights should be stripped from cis persons as well.

Because the right to equal treatment in society is broadly acknowledged as being a civil right, apparently except where trans people are concerned.
Depending on what one means by “civil rights” - yes, they aren’t rights and people (of all types) shouldn’t be guaranteed them.

No one should be obligated to treat people equally, especially since they aren’t equal.
 

Cherico

Well-known member
Ultimently my view on any community is this.

Are they capable of peacefully coexisting with other communities?


The trans community has its flaws but at the end of the day your average transsexual is capable of live and let live. So I don't have a problem with them and the fact is their one of the few communities that has actually managed to do any appreciable damage to feminism and managed to actually make them pay for their blantant hipocracy and general assholishness.

That leaves me with a pretty positive view of the community as a whole, with the asshole exceptions mentions (I don't hold it against you every community has assholes in it.)
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
Trans people have never actually argued that there's an entitlement to jobs, housing, etc etc. What we do argue is that we should not be discriminated against on the basis of our gender identity, in exactly the same manner that the Civil Rights Act bars discrimination in employment and public accommodations on the basis of race, sex, religion, etc.
 

ShieldWife

Marchioness
Trans people have never actually argued that there's an entitlement to jobs, housing, etc etc. What we do argue is that we should not be discriminated against on the basis of our gender identity, in exactly the same manner that the Civil Rights Act bars discrimination in employment and public accommodations on the basis of race, sex, religion, etc.
People should be able to discriminate based on any of those things. Though barring discrimination based on gender identity becomes even more problematic when people are allowed to make official distinctions between males and females.
 

Nitramy

The Umbrella that Smites Evil
Is there really a "Community"? Because I've seen some guys online who say they're Trans but NOT part of the "Community" on the basis that they're less a refuge and more of a clique or something

You can blame that cancerous pile of shit known as "intersectionality"; it ensured that most trans people who are visible are almost always assholes.
 

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