Transgender Rights

[Terthna]

Transition is the best tool we have right now for dealing with gender dysphoria; that does not mean we will never have better tools at our disposal. Perhaps it may one day be possible to fix any number of issues with the brain, but we are not there yet. Quite frankly, what we don't know about the brain could fill entire libraries, and not enough effort is being put forward towards expanding our limited knowledge.

Medical Doctors did most of the early research, particularly in Germany. You ascribe a great deal of importance to Psychiatry, but I distrust any science which thinks to engineer the human soul. The outcomes of psychiatric drugs remain dubious at best.

You're thinking of religion; Psychiatry deals with the mind.

 

[LordsFire]

There exists no such thing as homophobia. Nobody has an irrational fear of homosexuals. What people do have is a disgust reaction to abnormal sexual fetishes. Disgust is not fear.

As much as 'homophobia' is used as a slur and to summarily dismiss positions or arguments without having to engage them, there are people with irrational fears of homosexuals. Just as there are people with irrational fears of heterosexuals. However, the 'number of people accused of homophobia' compared to the 'the number of people with actual irrational fears' is probably on the order of a hundred or thousand to one.

Because yes, disgust reaction to abnormal sexual fetishes or practices is normal human behavior.

You're thinking of religion; Psychiatry deals with the mind.

You are apparently not terribly familiar with the history of psychiatry and psychology as often practiced. Many schools of thought in these disciplines have been farm from scientific, and little more than 'scientists' attempting to justify what they want to be true, and often trying to program people into behaving how the 'scientist' thinks that humans should be.

Sigmund Freud, with his sexual issues, is one of the most infamous cases of this, but it's far from the only one. There was that article recently about an inmate in Juvie was given female hormones involuntarily to try to make his behavior more like what the people running the facility thought was 'right,' and he grew breasts as a result. This is a far from unique occurrence, where psychologists or psychiatrists try to control people through manipulation of their brains and bodies.

I consider Psychology an absolutely crucial discipline, that pretty much everybody should have a basic grounding in. I also have an intense distrust of many of the practitioners therein, because they're not actually out for the patient's well-being, they're in it to grind their philosophical and ideological axe.

 

[Doomsought]

I consider Psychology an absolutely crucial discipline, that pretty much everybody should have a basic grounding in. I also have an intense distrust of many of the practitioners therein, because they're not actually out for the patient's well-being, they're in it to grind their philosophical and ideological axe.

It also has a nasty habit of going through fad treatments. There was an era where lobotomy was considered the cure all. Likewise electroshock therapy was became very popular before it was cut down to cases where it was actually effective.

I don't think it will really become a part of modern medicine until we can lock down the computational frameworks behind subconscious behaviors and identify neural circuits. I remember a study that identified stereotyping as a baysian predictor but can't for the life of my find it again. I doubt I will ever find it agian, sicne it treated something as a mechanism that could be in error rather than an activity that must be stamped out, breaking all of the taboos.

 

[Abhorsen]

There exists no such thing as homophobia. Nobody has an irrational fear of homosexuals. What people do have is a disgust reaction to abnormal sexual fetishes. Disgust is not fear.

So homophobia is badly designed word that means anti-gay bigotry, which includes disgust, or hatred for gay people as well as fear. Sorta like anti-semitism is a badly designed word. While it means Jew hatred, Palestinians and Arabs in general can be considered semetic, and use this as an excuse to say they can't be anti-semetic.

So when I call Doomsought an homophobe, what I mean is that he consistently shows that he's an anti gay bigot, as shown by his repeated posts:

I want the faggots back in the closet

Calling being gay a perversion, and implying it doesn't actually exist is a classic homophobic trope:

Homosexuality is just sexual fetish. You are just a pervert.

So Doomsought, I don't honestly care too much about you being a homophobe, though I do use it for mocking because it's right there and so easy. What I do care about is that you let your bigotry take the place of your brain when arguing. You haven't cited any studies backing your points, you have no evidence backing your points. All you do is go around insisting on statements, thinking that repeating them makes it true. Now perhaps I'm wrong and you came by your idiocy honestly, but I like to believe the best of people, so perhaps you can make a good argument this time.

As much as 'homophobia' is used as a slur and to summarily dismiss positions or arguments without having to engage them, there are people with irrational fears of homosexuals. Just as there are people with irrational fears of heterosexuals. However, the 'number of people accused of homophobia' compared to the 'the number of people with actual irrational fears' is probably on the order of a hundred or thousand to one.

Because yes, disgust reaction to abnormal sexual fetishes or practices is normal human behavior.

I agree that disgust reactions to different sexual behavior is normal, but that's very different than finding a person disgusting, which is further different from finding a person disgusting because they are in a group. Homophobia, (despite it's poor name) does include people who find gays in general to be disgusting for being gay. It doesn't include people who just find gay sex disgusting (though crazies want it to and have mostly succeeded, which would completely remove it from being a useful phrase, like nazi or racist).

 

[Deleted member 88]

Fun fact, transgender research was done in the capital of early 20th century degeneracy, Berlin.

Few people realize just how utterly depraved the Weimar Republic was. You had pederasty, homosexual orgies, bestiality, it was in every city.

I guess it makes sense degeneracy now is in Weimarica.

 

[worm that walks]

Fun fact, transgender research was done in the capital of early 20th century degeneracy, Berlin.

Few people realize just how utterly depraved the Weimar Republic was. You had pederasty, homosexual orgies, bestiality, it was in every city.

I guess it makes sense degeneracy now is in Weimarica.

Weimar Berlin was a hell of a lot better than what came after it.

 

[Deleted member 88]

A lot of German society hated that their society had been transformed from Wilhemine Germany into Sodom over night. And then the party collapsed in 1929, with the Great Depression. Turns out a degenerate society can't handle crisis that well. I mean and no-it wasn't good for everyone. There were politicians and newspaper magnates having sex with little boys in drag. Women were forced into prostitution, it was a horribly depraved culture.

 

[worm that walks]

A lot of German society hated that their society had been transformed from Wilhemine Germany into Sodom over night. And then the party collapsed in 1929, with the Great Depression. Turns out a degenerate society can't handle crisis that well. I mean and no-it wasn't good for everyone. There were politicians and newspaper magnates having sex with little boys in drag. Women were forced into prostitution, it was a horribly depraved culture.

Still better than Nazis.

 

[Deleted member 88]

The Nazi's rise can not be understood without understanding the context of the Weimar era. The Nazis reacted against not just trends, but who they saw as advocating these trends.* Both communism and sexual libertinism were seen as having come from one particular source*.

*And of course, we know who they saw as promoting communism and transgender treatments.

Its impossible to understand the politics of the 20s without understanding why the above was the belief on the right in Germany, Europe, and even America.

 

[worm that walks]

The Nazi's rise can not be understood without understanding the context of the Weimar era. The Nazis reacted against not just trends, but who they saw as advocating these trends.* Both communism and sexual libertinism were seen as having come from one particular source*.

*And of course, we know who they saw as promoting communism and transgender treatments.

Yeah, the Nazis were idiotic conspiracy theorists who thought DA JOOS were behind everything they didn't like. The fact the Nazis were pissed about something doesn't necessarily make it a bad thing, you know?

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

The Nazi's rise can not be understood without understanding the context of the Weimar era. The Nazis reacted against not just trends, but who they saw as advocating these trends.* Both communism and sexual libertinism were seen as having come from one particular source*.

*And of course, we know who they saw as promoting communism and transgender treatments.

Its impossible to understand the politics of the 20s without understanding why the above was the belief on the right in Germany, Europe, and even America.

Really this is the hill you want to die on?

 

[Deleted member 88]

No, I'm just explaining the context. Not condoning the reaction.

Obviously the Nazis were morally in the wrong.

But they didn't emerge out of nowhere. There was a definite historical context.

My point is that transgenderism was promoted in Weimar Germany first, and that its promotion was galvanizing to reactionary forces.

There were other elements besides the Nazis who weren't happy with Weimar era policies and attitudes. They just so happened to take over in 1933.

 

[worm that walks]

No, I'm just explaining the context. Not condoning the reaction.

Obviously the Nazis were morally in the wrong.

But they didn't emerge out of nowhere.

Right, sometimes you get so mad that other people are having sex, you just gotta have a little genocide.

 

[Deleted member 88]

Right, sometimes you get so mad that other people are having sex, you just gotta have a little genocide.

As someone with a history degree, that's just an oversimplification I can't even.

History is dynamic in that things that react in conflict. Weimarism with its cosmopolitan culture and sexual libertinism triggered the development of reactionary forces. Forces which may have not prevailed, perhaps if there had been no Great Depression. Not to mention for all its supposed progressivism, Weimar values were pretty much limited to the big cities and even then not accepted by all. It was very much elite culture.

Really this is the hill you want to die on?

Did I condone the Nazis? I'm addressing the historical context while being oblique because it is a sensitive subject.

 

[worm that walks]

As someone with a history degree, that's just an oversimplification I can't even.

History is dynamic in that things that react in conflict. Weimarism with its cosmopolitan culture and sexual libertinism triggered the development of reactionary forces. Forces which may have not prevailed, perhaps if there had been no Great Depression.

Oh no, they were cosmopolitan, too?!

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

As someone with a history degree, that's just an oversimplification I can't even.

History is dynamic in that things that react in conflict. Weimarism with its cosmopolitan culture and sexual libertinism triggered the development of reactionary forces. Forces which may have not prevailed, perhaps if there had been no Great Depression. Not to mention for all its supposed progressivism, Weimar values were pretty much limited to the big cities and even then not accepted by all. It was very much elite culture.


Did I condone the Nazis? I'm addressing the historical context while being oblique because it is a sensitive subject.

just seemed like you were justifying. Perhaps I misunderstood. We should never forget though that just because Cithulu is an abomination doesin't change the fact the devil is the devil.

 

[Deleted member 88]

Weimar bourgeoisie culture was very cosmopolitan. Jazz concerts, modernist literature, experiments in cinema, radical breaches with tradition, etc...

These things did make a lot of people unhappy. Not just Nazis, but large sections of society. WW1 veterans, the clergy, small business owners, and a great many working class people. Notice how I emphasized bourgeoisie? The sexual liberalism you put so much value on was not accepted by the bulk of society. It was seen as something artificial, imposed, not of the German people.

Sooner or later there was going to be blowback.

just seemed like you were justifying.

Sooner or later there was going to be a reaction, that's not justification that's just the historical dialectic. Obviously the Nazi era was terrible, and many Nazis were in their own ways degenerates.

 

[worm that walks]

Weimar bourgeoisie culture was very cosmopolitan. Jazz concerts, modernist literature, experiments in cinema, radical breaches with tradition, etc...

These things did make a lot of people unhappy. Not just Nazis, but large sections of society. WW1 veterans, the clergy, small business owners, and a great many working class people. Notice how emphasized bourgeoisie? The sexual liberalism you put so much value on was not accepted by the bulk of society.

Sooner or later there was going to be blowback.

Jazz, experimental film, and modernist literature? If that is all it takes to make people want to engage in mass murder, there's something wrong with those people. I'll admit I have had the occasional homicidal impulse listening to Kenny G, but they took it a little far.

You don't have to put much value on something to think murdering everyone involved in it is a bad thing.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

Weimar bourgeoisie culture was very cosmopolitan. Jazz concerts, modernist literature, experiments in cinema, radical breaches with tradition, etc...

Oh brother.

Sooner or later there was going to be a reaction, that's not justification that's just the historical dialectic. Obviously the Nazi era was terrible, and many Nazis were in their own ways degenerates.

I would say what I think about these reactionist, but I'd rather not get banned.

 

[Deleted member 88]

My point is that there was a major rift in society, between the bohemian elite class, and its hangers on. And the other sections of society. This rift led to brutal street fighting, political paralysis, and eventually the Nazis' rise.

I mean...if we want can move this to another thread? And discuss Weimar era politics and society.

Oh brother.

for a society proud of its Wagner and high class operas, it was seen as bad. In a lot of ways, because it was consumerist, low brow, and worse American.