Transgender Rights

[KilroywasNOTHere]

I don't know that therapy actually works though. Is there any evidence that therapy (and not aging out) actually does anything?

that's why I'm skeptical.

 

[Doomsought]

I don't know that therapy actually works though. Is there any evidence that therapy (and not aging out) actually does anything?

There is no way to know. The orthodoxy is so strong there is no way to get funding for research on Reasignment surgery regret let alone therapy to treat the cause of the issue.

 

[Abhorsen]

There is no way to know. The orthodoxy is so strong there is no way to get funding for research on Reasignment surgery regret let alone therapy to treat the cause of the issue.

So then you are asserting this without evidence. This isn't an orthodoxy thing, there does exist studies on aging out and regret. There aren't studies on conversion therapy working (but plenty on it not working for gays).

 

[Doomsought]

So then you are asserting this without evidence.

It is so obvious that I shouldn't need to, but here you go:

University Bans Research Into Transgender Surgery Regrets

A public university in the United Kingdom has refused to allow a researcher to look into cases of people who regretted having gender reassignment surgery and transitioned back to living as their ...

www.christianpost.com

Proposal to research 'trans regret' rejected by university for fear of backlash, claims psychotherapist

A psychotherapist who wanted to research reverse gender reassignment claimed that he had his academic proposal rejected because his university was scared of backlash from trans community, the High Court heard.

www.telegraph.co.uk

We need to continue looking into new methods of conversion therapy, but just acknowledging that a problem with the orthodox treatment puts your job at risk.

 

[Abhorsen]

It is so obvious that I shouldn't need to, but here you go:

University Bans Research Into Transgender Surgery Regrets

A public university in the United Kingdom has refused to allow a researcher to look into cases of people who regretted having gender reassignment surgery and transitioned back to living as their ...

www.christianpost.com

Proposal to research 'trans regret' rejected by university for fear of backlash, claims psychotherapist

A psychotherapist who wanted to research reverse gender reassignment claimed that he had his academic proposal rejected because his university was scared of backlash from trans community, the High Court heard.

www.telegraph.co.uk

We need to continue looking into new methods of conversion therapy, but just acknowledging that a problem with the orthodox treatment puts your job at risk.

Sorry, my statement got lost between my head and my post. I meant you had no evidence for conversion therapy working. There has been successful research on transgender regret because of peoples dysphoria disappearing with age, despite attempts to suppress. But there hasn't been research saying that any sort of therapy is linked to desisting, let alone causes desisting. It's just that people age out of it. Unless you have evidence linking treatment (not age) to desisting?

Basically, even when there is an orthodoxy with institutional power, the science generally pushes against it, and we can see the light shine through. This is happening with age based desisting, but not with conversion therapy.

 

[Deleted member]

Sorry, my statement got lost between my head and my post. I meant you had no evidence for conversion therapy working. There has been successful research on transgender regret because of peoples dysphoria disappearing with age, despite attempts to suppress. But there hasn't been research saying that any sort of therapy is linked to desisting, let alone causes desisting. It's just that people age out of it. Unless you have evidence linking treatment (not age) to desisting?

Basically, even when there is an orthodoxy with institutional power, the science generally pushes against it, and we can see the light shine through. This is happening with age based desisting, but not with conversion therapy.

I would say that the issue was sufficiently researched and clearly well-defined in the 70s, 80s and 90s. It’s only being relitigated because of the transtrender issue that’s appeared within the past decade. 120 years of medical research has shown transition to be the only treatment for primary transsexuality. The problem is that others who don’t match that diagnosis are transitioning now.

 

[Doomsought]

120 years of medical research has shown transition to be the only treatment for primary transsexuality.

Bullshit. 120 years of legitimate psychiatric research on anything simply does not exist, the entire field is in its infancy, about a hundred years behind other forms of medicine. Phychiatric care is right now about a decade ahead of when opium was used as a cure all in 1920s medicine. We have only just in the last 60 years learned how to take direct action on the brain. Barely, if you stretch the definition to the limit.

 

[Abhorsen]

Bullshit. 120 years of legitimate psychiatric research on anything simply does not exist, the entire field is in its infancy, about a hundred years behind other forms of medicine. Phychiatric care is right now about a decade ahead of when opium was used as a cure all in 1920s medicine. We have only just in the last 60 years learned how to take direct action on the brain. Barely, if you stretch the definition to the limit.

And in no period has there been any evidence validating that conversion therapy of any sort works. You have presented no evidence for this, a positive claim which requires proof. But there is plenty of evidence going the opposite way. Your claim that there is suppression from the orthodoxy also doesn't work, because suppression isn't perfect, yet there is 0 plausible evidence otherwise. From what I can tell, the orthodoxy there is because science has had it's say. Meanwhile, you've come off about as scientific as a creationist, simply insisting that the truth is being suppressed because you don't like it.

 

[Cherico]

Im fine with gay people being gay, bi people being bi, strait people being strait, and trans people being trans.

As long as your living your own life its none of my business, however once you start imposing your belifes on others then I have a problem. Conversion therapy falls into that hole for me and I do not like it. I don't want some SJW control freak telling me how to live my life and I don't want some fundy telling some random guy who happens to be gay how to live theres.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

reading back I need to be more specific. When I was refering to treatment I was refering to methads to help break disphoria and help someone accept thier biological gender. I think that needs to always be on the table but doesin't need to be forced unless someone is provong to be a danger to others (again abusing a child by forcing them to go trans) yes we don't need to be encouraging mental illness, but we also don't want it to where putting someone in a straitjacket and scrambling their brain until they yield or become a vegetable is a norm either.

Why should it "always be on the table" when it's a treatment modality with a history of abject failure and consistently negative patient outcomes? At this point, you're basically saying that medical science should be overridden by anti-transgender political/cultural ideology.

 

[Abhorsen]

Why should it "always be on the table" when it's a treatment modality with a history of abject failure and consistently negative patient outcomes? At this point, you're basically saying that medical science should be overridden by anti-transgender political/cultural ideology.

If an adult wants to do something that won't work, that's the adult's business. It's not for us to stop them. But for kids it should never be done, as it is just child abuse.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

Why should it "always be on the table" when it's a treatment modality with a history of abject failure and consistently negative patient outcomes? At this point, you're basically saying that medical science should be overridden by anti-transgender political/cultural ideology.

I'm saying that if someone with dysphoria wants to accept their gender and they are willing to go through experimental treatments they should be allowed to. Like I said there are no "good" answers because mother nature is flawed and it for lack of a better term "curses" people without rhyme or reason, so at some point it has to come down to individual responsibility. People have to decide for themselves what paths they take and what burdens to bare.

 

[Aldarion]

I'm saying that if someone with dysphoria wants to accept their gender and they are willing to go through experimental treatments they should be allowed to. Like I said there are no "good" answers because mother nature is flawed and it for lack of a better term "curses" people without rhyme or reason, so at some point it has to come down to individual responsibility. People have to decide for themselves what paths they take and what burdens to bare.

Problem I have with whole idea of transgenderism and gender dysphoria is... brain is much more plastic and malleable than anything else in human body. It can literally rewrite and rebuild itself based on external input: just check out London taxi drivers. Therefore, logical conclusion is that, if there is a problem with disparity between one's biological sex and mental gender identity, it is not with the body, it is in the brain. Thus, changing gender in response to psychological disparity is equivalent to curing a wound by cutting off the limb. It is overly invasive and unnecessarily extreme.

 

[Abhorsen]

Problem I have with whole idea of transgenderism and gender dysphoria is... brain is much more plastic and malleable than anything else in human body. It can literally rewrite and rebuild itself based on external input: just check out London taxi drivers. Therefore, logical conclusion is that, if there is a problem with disparity between one's biological sex and mental gender identity, it is not with the body, it is in the brain. Thus, changing gender in response to psychological disparity is equivalent to curing a wound by cutting off the limb. It is overly invasive and unnecessarily extreme.

But other parts of the brain can't be rewritten. For example, we have a ton of experimental information saying that gays can't transition no matter the therapy.

 

[Aldarion]

But other parts of the brain can't be rewritten. For example, we have a ton of experimental information saying that gays can't transition no matter the therapy.

From what I have seen so far, there is information for both conclusions with split being political rather than based on data. EDIT: Though at least some research suggests that orientation is malleable during childhood but fixed after puberty.

 

[Doomsought]

But other parts of the brain can't be rewritten. For example, we have a ton of experimental information saying that gays can't transition no matter the therapy.

Human sexuality is clearly malleable even after puberty because people can develop new fetishes from pornography. The gender theory of human sexuality is a poor approximation if not outright pseudoscience. The human subconsious uses baysian belief networks for statistical predictions, which is clearly the kind of activity sexuality is on a computational level.

 

[Abhorsen]

From what I have seen so far, there is information for both conclusions with split being political rather than based on data. EDIT: Though at least some research suggests that orientation is malleable during childhood but fixed after puberty.

There really isn't. Orientation being fixed about after puberty is pretty well established, as is the impossibility of purposely changing an orientation. Again, do you have a citation saying otherwise that doesn't include self-reports? People frequently wanted to change orientation and believed that they had (look at Exodus International), but once tested, generally don't change, and eventually admit this (again, see Exodus International), which lead to some early researchers claiming successes that never lasted.

Human sexuality is clearly malleable even after puberty because people can develop new fetishes from pornography. The gender theory of human sexuality is a poor approximation if not outright pseudoscience. The human subconsious uses baysian belief networks for statistical predictions, which is clearly the kind of activity sexuality is on a computational level.

Nice theory and all, but it runs right into experimental evidence saying the opposite about orientation. Shockingly, there's a difference between fetishes and an orientation. Also, still no one has a citation saying otherwise about orientation, despite my repeated requests for it.

You in particular seem to have the answer you want to be true in mind, and just ignore any evidence saying otherwise, because your homophobia blinds you (not calling other people homophobes, just him.).

 

[Aldarion]

There really isn't. Orientation being fixed about after puberty is pretty well established, as is the impossibility of purposely changing an orientation. Again, do you have a citation saying otherwise that doesn't include self-reports? People frequently wanted to change orientation and believed that they had (look at Exodus International), but once tested, generally don't change, and eventually admit this (again, see Exodus International), which lead to some early researchers claiming successes that never lasted.

Not studies as such, but reports of those:

A new study of 12,000 people says sexuality changes well into adulthood

The research shows distinct differences between men and women.

www.marketwatch.com

Sexuality continues to change and develop well into adulthood, finds study

A new study has shown that traditional labels of 'gay', 'bisexual' and 'straight' do not capture the full range of human sexuality, and whether a person is attracted to the same, or opposite sex can change over time.

medicalxpress.com

Here's More Evidence Sexual Orientation Is Fluid Right Into Our Adult Years

The vocabulary we currently use to describe sexual orientation is hopelessly inadequate, with labels like 'gay', 'straight' and 'bi' falling far short of the complex reality, a large long-term study suggests.

www.sciencealert.com

EDIT: And again, fact remains that brain, by its very nature, is a highly plastic organ. People had been rehabilitated into society after being raised by animals. Therefore, it is suggestion that sexual orientation is genetically determined (and thus not malleable) that needs to be proven first, before demanding proof of the opposite.

 

[Deleted member]

Bullshit. 120 years of legitimate psychiatric research on anything simply does not exist, the entire field is in its infancy, about a hundred years behind other forms of medicine. Phychiatric care is right now about a decade ahead of when opium was used as a cure all in 1920s medicine. We have only just in the last 60 years learned how to take direct action on the brain. Barely, if you stretch the definition to the limit.

Medical Doctors did most of the early research, particularly in Germany. You ascribe a great deal of importance to Psychiatry, but I distrust any science which thinks to engineer the human soul. The outcomes of psychiatric drugs remain dubious at best.

 

[Doomsought]

You in particular seem to have the answer you want to be true in mind, and just ignore any evidence saying otherwise, because your homophobia blinds you (not calling other people homophobes, just him.).

There exists no such thing as homophobia. Nobody has an irrational fear of homosexuals. What people do have is a disgust reaction to abnormal sexual fetishes. Disgust is not fear.

Medical Doctors did most of the early research, particularly in Germany. You ascribe a great deal of importance to Psychiatry, but I distrust any science which thinks to engineer the human soul. The outcomes of psychiatric drugs remain dubious at best.

Psychiatry is the name for the category of medical research we are talking about here. The German researchers no matter what the origin of their expertise were engaging in Psychiatry by performing that research.