Philosophy Tradition!

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
In my estimation, it might be "rise and shine" time for the French Monarchist movement if things go very badly. Promising stability and a return to tradition are very attractive propositions for a tired public.

The thing is, most people in the 21st century don't actually know what 'tradition' looks like. It had already been culturally demolished before their formative years. Only the older among the Baby Boomers and their lingering predecessors remember life before the cultural revolution of the 60's, and that's just in the US.

Post-modernists, socialists, various other ideological fruits of atheism, they'd all thoroughly overrun the upper echelons of academia by the mid-20th century, and their teachings started pushing society towards collapse not long after WWII. Most people in the West don't even know what a society where more families are intact than not, where pre-marital sex is still taboo, where eroticization of almost everything is not socially acceptable, where the government isn't expected to 'solve' everything, even looks like.

It's hard to return to tradition, when basically nobody knows what it even was.
 

Lord Sovereign

Well-known member
The thing is, most people in the 21st century don't actually know what 'tradition' looks like. It had already been culturally demolished before their formative years. Only the older among the Baby Boomers and their lingering predecessors remember life before the cultural revolution of the 60's, and that's just in the US.

Post-modernists, socialists, various other ideological fruits of atheism, they'd all thoroughly overrun the upper echelons of academia by the mid-20th century, and their teachings started pushing society towards collapse not long after WWII. Most people in the West don't even know what a society where more families are intact than not, where pre-marital sex is still taboo, where eroticization of almost everything is not socially acceptable, where the government isn't expected to 'solve' everything, even looks like.

It's hard to return to tradition, when basically nobody knows what it even was.

Sort of, sort of not. A bit of an instinctual desire for such things is very much present for the human animal. Thanks to history and the like we do have some idea of what life was like and I think there's a growing feeling that "maybe some things should have stayed that way."
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
It's hard to return to tradition, when basically nobody knows what it even was.

The so-called nuclear family is the ur-example of, "What you think is traditional is nothing of the sort." Even the *term itself* has no documented history of being used prior to the mid-1920s, and its mainstream dominance is very much a product of urban life in the industrial revolution.

The *actually* traditional family structure is extended family clans living in a multi-generational configuration, not standalone nuclear families with "a breadwinner Dad, homemaker Mom, two and a half children and a white picket fence".
 

Cherico

Well-known member
The so-called nuclear family is the ur-example of, "What you think is traditional is nothing of the sort." Even the *term itself* has no documented history of being used prior to the mid-1920s, and its mainstream dominance is very much a product of urban life in the industrial revolution.

The *actually* traditional family structure is extended family clans living in a multi-generational configuration, not standalone nuclear families with "a breadwinner Dad, homemaker Mom, two and a half children and a white picket fence".

Raisng children is fucking hard really fucking hard.

We used extended families to do this for most of human history because holy shit doing it with just two people is really hard, and doing it alone is a super bad idea. Like sure you can raise children alone, you can also climb mount everest alone. It doesn't mean its a good idea.


As for what tradition is.

Tradition is the results of trial and error over the whole civilizational experience of a people. If a social experiement works it is kept and added to tradition. If it fails horrifically then its rejected.

This current period of modernity is the west and other conducting lots of social experiements some of them worked some of them didn't but that period of social experiementation can not last forever. People eventally just get sick of it because most experiements do not work and some go horrifically wrong.

(See communism and Facism)

In time people just want this to fucking stop and it does. What works is kept and added to tradition what failed is consined to the dumpster of history. Once the expeirements stop they stop for a very long time, so every one right now is trying to get their experiments done before the lock. hence the current craziness.
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
The so-called nuclear family is the ur-example of, "What you think is traditional is nothing of the sort." Even the *term itself* has no documented history of being used prior to the mid-1920s, and its mainstream dominance is very much a product of urban life in the industrial revolution.

The *actually* traditional family structure is extended family clans living in a multi-generational configuration, not standalone nuclear families with "a breadwinner Dad, homemaker Mom, two and a half children and a white picket fence".

You realize nobody brought up the 'nuclear family' until you did, right?

And that leftist policies have resulted in single-parent families, not 'extended family cooperative raising' or anything similar.
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!

Thank you!
Can the thread title be real vs. imagined tradition and family values?

Also, I remember a thread back at the other forum I started about traditions long ago, with this exact song being posted. :D

In any case, as some posters have mentioned already, tradition is something that evolvest in respinse to social and environmental stimuli, and it is not just mere superstition or blind adherence to doctrine but something that helps the extended family/tribe/village survive, and that was my thesis in that long-forgotten thread as well.
The Boomers, being spoiled, over-indulged brats that grew up in mass produce suburban houses with all sorts of new amenities, as well as the generations they spawned and influenced, forgot all that.

And that is my 2 Eurocents on the subject.
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
Pretty sure the term nuclear became popular around the 1950s. So, the time of the Boomers.
 

Cherico

Well-known member
The former. You'd be surprised how many leftoids think the past was nothing but white men sneering at the downtrodden enslaved masses.

The past is fucking huge, unbelivably huge, and varried and people have been running social experiements and doing things and having adventures whole of human history. When you look at it as a whole with an open mind, you either gain a sense of respect for the people of yesteryear and their struggles, or your driven mad by the shear size of it.
 

colorles

Well-known member
Thank you!
Can the thread title be real vs. imagined tradition and family values?

Also, I remember a thread back at the other forum I started about traditions long ago, with this exact song being posted. :D

In any case, as some posters have mentioned already, tradition is something that evolvest in respinse to social and environmental stimuli, and it is not just mere superstition or blind adherence to doctrine but something that helps the extended family/tribe/village survive, and that was my thesis in that long-forgotten thread as well.
The Boomers, being spoiled, over-indulged brats that grew up in mass produce suburban houses with all sorts of new amenities, as well as the generations they spawned and influenced, forgot all that.

And that is my 2 Eurocents on the subject.

first of all, great topic, with some concisely worded takes on the matter

but this "Boomer" hate that has become so prevalent across the internet, is over-emotional and foolish and is, more often than not, flat out wrong. these were guys that, much like my grandfather's generation in the second world war, had a high school graduation present of being shipped to a foreign meatgrinder - but, unlike the greatest generation, the boomers came back to a society already in social decay. the only boomers i personally know that had it easy, had the family connections to avoid the war altogether ... and are narcissistic shitbags now

and even going beyond the war given that many boomers were fortunate enough of being too young, they still worked like most everyone else for everything they have, or don't have. in a society that was already in social decay, and many of them lost the shirt off of their backs in divorces. many turned to alcohol over things like this

generally speaking, these guys were, and are, solid as fuck. people of the later born American generations should really look themselves in the mirror and then take a good look around them, instead of blaming the men that raised them
 
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Cherico

Well-known member
first of all, great topic, with some concisely worded takes on the matter

but this "Boomer" hate that has become so prevalent across the internet, is over-emotional and foolish and is, more often than not, flat out wrong. these were guys that, much like my grandfather's generation in the second world war, had a high school graduation present of being shipped to a foreign meatgrinder - but, unlike the greatest generation, the boomers came back to a society already in social decay. the only boomers i personally know that had it easy, had the family connections to avoid the war altogether ... and are narcissistic shitbags now

and even going beyond the war given that many boomers were fortunate enough of being too young, they still worked like most everyone else for everything they have, or don't have. in a society that was already in social decay, an them lost the shirt off of their backs in divorces. many turned to alcohol over things like this

generally speaking, these guys were, and are, solid as fuck. people of the later born American generations should really look themselves in the mirror and then take a good look around them, instead of blaming the men that raised them
We live in the world they created and generations are judged by the results they bring. And the advantages they had.
 

Bassoe

Well-known member
"Tradition is when women have no rights, homos are forced to stay quiet, trannies don't exist, God is the highest authroity, and (white) men are on top!"

Thank you, random SJWtard.
The former. You'd be surprised how many leftoids think the past was nothing but white men sneering at the downtrodden enslaved masses.
To be completely fair, I'm pretty sure a considerable percentage of the modern "traditionalist" kooks got their ideology entirely from interpreting wokeist anti-traditionalism propaganda in a manner its creators probably didn't intend, specifically, "in a traditionalist society, we'd be running things, women would be economically dependent upon men so we'd get GFs and the various whiny wokeist identity groups actually would be oppressed, therefore ensuring they'd either be dead or at least, would stop complaining".

Ask some European peasant man working as a quasi-slave in a company town during the industrial revolution, or a draftee in WW1 how accurate said prediction model was. Not very.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
I just wanna note, the Nuclear family is much, much more traditional than people are putting out here. Even a brief wiki-walk reveals it was the most common family arrangement in the UK as far back as the 13th century, and archeological evidence for nuclear families back in the stone age. It was common enough in bible times that Genesis 2:24 lists it as an axiom.

Statistics about nuclear families and how rare they are/were often use a bit of sleight-of-hand to massage the data by removing families without children from the total, making it appear much less common than it really is since most nuclear families start out without any children.

The nuclear family is very traditional... in Europe and the US. It's less common in Asia and the middle east.
 

Lord Sovereign

Well-known member
I just wanna note, the Nuclear family is much, much more traditional than people are putting out here. Even a brief wiki-walk reveals it was the most common family arrangement in the UK as far back as the 13th century, and archeological evidence for nuclear families back in the stone age. It was common enough in bible times that Genesis 2:24 lists it as an axiom.

Statistics about nuclear families and how rare they are/were often use a bit of sleight-of-hand to massage the data by removing families without children from the total, making it appear much less common than it really is since most nuclear families start out without any children.

The nuclear family is very traditional... in Europe and the US. It's less common in Asia and the middle east.

It always struck me more as the nuclear family being the more streamlined version of the extended family model. They might look a little bit different, but it's still the same beast and it can quite happily operate within the extended family model.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
It always struck me more as the nuclear family being the more streamlined version of the extended family model. They might look a little bit different, but it's still the same beast and it can quite happily operate within the extended family model.
This is true, having retired dad (or, shudder, the mother-in-law) live with the family is hardly unheard of or even rare even when nuclear families are the norm.

Nuclear families are also a major driver of the creation of the middle-class. The most important aspect of creating a middle-class is generating dynastic wealth, and the personal home is usually the best and most useful piece of permanent wealth to be passed on. Extended families have more trouble with this as no one family is getting the home and the dynastic wealth is more diluted.

Unsurprisingly, policies that destroy personal home ownership also tend to gut the critical middle-class.
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
It always struck me more as the nuclear family being the more streamlined version of the extended family model. They might look a little bit different, but it's still the same beast and it can quite happily operate within the extended family model.

It's not that nuclear families didn't exist at all, but that they typically existed as sub-units of extended families and were not thought of as the exclusively standalone units of the 1920s concept.
 

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