Aaron Fox
Well-known member
True, but then again Rolands do require...
... and I did a stupid, mixed up my missiles, I was thinking of the Shahine series instead of the Rolands. Your idea has merit...
Today I found out that... the Sergeant York wasn't that bad...
- Thread starter Aaron Fox
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... and I did a stupid, mixed up my missiles, I was thinking of the Shahine series instead of the Rolands. Your idea has merit...
I tend to agree, plus Roland is a mature system, and a bit better than I-HAWK and more mobile for sure. Patriot's coming online, but it's more of a static system. And Rapier? Well, Congress is going to lose it's mind because there's already Roland not being invented here, and the Army wants another foreign made ADA system? Uh, no. So they'll probably have to soldier on with an improved Chapparel for a missile SHORAD system, supplemented by Stinger-POST. But Roland is a good, solid, and mobile medium range AD system that has worked well when it's used.
Roland entered French service in 1977, the same year that Americans got them so not exactly something I consider mature yet. Nor is it a medium range missile, its a SHORAD missile like Rapier or Chapparel.
Vargas Fan
Head over heels in love :)
SPAAG's seems to work in complement with SAM's. I seem to recall that in the many Arab/Israeli wars when the ZSU-23/4 system was first deployed it was a nasty surprise for the IDF. Fly too low and you could get badly shot up by the ZSU's, too high and the SAM's were at you.
Interestingly, I recently got back into Armoured Warfare the game and the Sgt York is almost a superweapon there in the lower tiers, but on the tech tree is a vehicle that was apparently a proposal, an SPAAG built round the GAU-8 Avenger. It does say in the game blurb that it had a tendency to overheat. Also mentioned is the T249 Vigilante that was trialled.
UK's Marconi had the Marksman system which had a turret similiar to the German Gepard system but was sold with an adapter that could fit many different tank and IFV chassis. Unfortunately it came out about the end of the cold war and Finland was the only customer.
Interestingly, I recently got back into Armoured Warfare the game and the Sgt York is almost a superweapon there in the lower tiers, but on the tech tree is a vehicle that was apparently a proposal, an SPAAG built round the GAU-8 Avenger. It does say in the game blurb that it had a tendency to overheat. Also mentioned is the T249 Vigilante that was trialled.
UK's Marconi had the Marksman system which had a turret similiar to the German Gepard system but was sold with an adapter that could fit many different tank and IFV chassis. Unfortunately it came out about the end of the cold war and Finland was the only customer.
Tiamat
I've seen the future...
You might find this link interesting:
The Army once considered putting the A-10's BRRRRT! on a tank
The A-10 Thunderbolt II, popularly known as the Warthog, was originally designed as a "tank-killer". In fact, the enti…
www.wearethemighty.com
The proposal for GAU-8 Avenger as a SPAAG system apparently never went past some drawings but there is a picture showing theoretically how it might have appeared if it had gone through.
Aaron Fox
Well-known member
Yeah, the DIVAD had four contenders, one was basically a Gepard on an M48 chassis, one was the Sargent York, one was a rechambered (instead of the original 37mm, it uses the NATO defacto standard 35mm, should be noted that the 37mm version had so much recoil that it literally shook the vehicle frame apart) Vigilante that Sparky and friends put onto the table, then General Electric's 'slap a GAU-8 Avenger on it, give it some radar, and call it a day' project.
(GE's mockup of their DIVAD contender)
(Sparky and friends contender, the gun is literally the failed Vigilante's Gatling autocannon rechambered for 35mm)
(the oddball which is basically a Gepard style turret with the guns centrally mounted instead of mounted on the sides, uses the same 35mm guns the vast majority of NATO uses for their SPAAGs)
You've got to remember that when the York was being prototyped, Bofors had recently introduced a new 40mm shell that managed to squeeze a sensor fuse -i.e. the fun fuse that does whatever 'not explode on contact' bullshit is needed, like taking out aircraft or showering infantry with flechettes, mostly known by us today as the 'fuck aircraft' fuse- into. This is a major game-changer when it came to air defense. Previously, everyone had to rely on the immense volume of fire to produce results when it came to their army assets. Sensor fuses back in the day couldn't be really miniaturized into something less than three inches (although, to my recollection, the 75mm 'Skyweeper' is the only non-naval AA piece that has a sensor fuse although the pace of aircraft made it obsolete anyway), so the navies were decently protected given radar guidance.
Having it in 40mm while still being effective? If you're a helicopter or low-flying aircraft pilot, then you'll need a new change of pants because you'll be shitting bricks.
(GE's mockup of their DIVAD contender)
(Sparky and friends contender, the gun is literally the failed Vigilante's Gatling autocannon rechambered for 35mm)
(the oddball which is basically a Gepard style turret with the guns centrally mounted instead of mounted on the sides, uses the same 35mm guns the vast majority of NATO uses for their SPAAGs)
You've got to remember that when the York was being prototyped, Bofors had recently introduced a new 40mm shell that managed to squeeze a sensor fuse -i.e. the fun fuse that does whatever 'not explode on contact' bullshit is needed, like taking out aircraft or showering infantry with flechettes, mostly known by us today as the 'fuck aircraft' fuse- into. This is a major game-changer when it came to air defense. Previously, everyone had to rely on the immense volume of fire to produce results when it came to their army assets. Sensor fuses back in the day couldn't be really miniaturized into something less than three inches (although, to my recollection, the 75mm 'Skyweeper' is the only non-naval AA piece that has a sensor fuse although the pace of aircraft made it obsolete anyway), so the navies were decently protected given radar guidance.
Having it in 40mm while still being effective? If you're a helicopter or low-flying aircraft pilot, then you'll need a new change of pants because you'll be shitting bricks.
Vargas Fan
Head over heels in love :)
To me the Sgt York always more resembled, aesthetically at least, the older ZSU-57/2.
Italy went a bit over the top with the OTO Matic. A 76mm OTO-Melara naval gun on a tracked chassis.
In my opinion the Marksman was a good idea for those that had still capable chassis with a decent life left in them but was like so many projects, a victim of the cold war, not to mention a private venture.
Italy went a bit over the top with the OTO Matic. A 76mm OTO-Melara naval gun on a tracked chassis.
In my opinion the Marksman was a good idea for those that had still capable chassis with a decent life left in them but was like so many projects, a victim of the cold war, not to mention a private venture.
With the proliferation of cheapass drones on the battlefield, it does make me wonder if SPAAG style weapons could be feasible again. There's a difference between launching a million dollar missile against a multi thousand dollar drone or spewing a few dozen autocannon or fused shells against one.
Plus if you do pair the system (as they are often done) with missiles or also use it in a ground support role since... well autocannons and 75mm cannons are always fun to have on a battlefield, there would be more utility for it then there would be for say.... the Avenger Humvees the US had pulling things like convoy protection duties in Iraq (before they got modified to carry machine guns instead of Stinger missile launchers).
Plus if you do pair the system (as they are often done) with missiles or also use it in a ground support role since... well autocannons and 75mm cannons are always fun to have on a battlefield, there would be more utility for it then there would be for say.... the Avenger Humvees the US had pulling things like convoy protection duties in Iraq (before they got modified to carry machine guns instead of Stinger missile launchers).
Aaron Fox
Well-known member
No, SPAAGs are always part of a 1-2 punch when it comes to air defense. Their mission is to essentially force aircraft to have no 'safe' altitude. Aircraft can't go Nape of the Earth because that'll get them killed by autocannon fire and they can't go high because that'll get them killed via SAM fire. This is rather visible as far back as Vietnam.
Add to the fact that now SPAAGs are getting the capability to self-defend from Anti-rad missiles and act as point defense against artillery and AGMs... you're going to need stupid numbers of missiles and bombs and artillery shells to actually hit anything within those bubbles.
Sorry if I sound like a jerk right now... but unless I'm missing something this is like the second time someone has quoted me and said that I'm flat out wrong before basically restating something I just posted. It wasn't you last time but... can people just like... read what I post before quoting me and saying I'm wrong? 😕
Rest of your post was cool though.
Aaron Fox
Well-known member
Quite a few people are idiots when it comes to this and believes Sparky and Co. and your post slightly implies that SPAAGs were abandoned in the first place.Sorry if I sound like a jerk right now... but unless I'm missing something this is like the second time someone has quoted me and said that I'm flat out wrong before basically restating something I just posted. It wasn't you last time but... can people just like... read what I post before quoting me and saying I'm wrong? 😕
It is a situation that has been slowly happening for a while now. I wouldn't be surprised if AHEAD style ammunition proliferates to the point that everyone and their brother has some.Rest of your post was cool though.
I'm pretty sure he is?
That aside, the US Army did basically abandoned SHORAD after the Cold War, hence the sudden drive to replace that capability as seen in articles like this one. There might of been some older Avenger in limited numbers still, but is something I feel is really limited by the fact it only armed with Stinger missiles.
Does appear more off the self and doesn't appear as impressive as something like the Russian Pantsir which is a development of the Soviet Tunguska
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Tiamat
I've seen the future...
Ugh...the US Military and everyone else got tunnel vision with COIN during the 2000's and are now having to refocus on the bigger picture again. I agree, hopefully they will get committed to something decent for ADA defense, they are supposedly looking at some proposed ADA variants of Stryker and the Bradley last I read.
That said, I readily admit the details I put into US military investment into SHORAD as a "what if" for a WW3 fic I'm working on (shameless plug, again) is a sort of "bird's the word" to the whole US Military SHORAD debacle. Nothing like a bunch of pissed-off Soviets giving you the required impetus!
As for Sparks....I hate to break his heart, but M113's are flaming death traps. No, not the WW2 Sherman, it never got called the "ronson", that apparently didn't come out until later. And any WW3 shooting war is liable to get the M113 that dubious vintage.
Aaron Fox
Well-known member
Comparatively useless, as it doesn't have the 40mm HEPF (High Explosive Proximity Fuse) rounds that Bofors started pumping out. AHEAD wouldn't be created until the early-to-mid 1990s aka a better part of two decades after Bofors revealed their 40mm HEPF rounds in that mid-to-late 1970s when DIVAD was just getting started.
Remember, back then AAGs relied on bullet spam than anything because sensor fuses were hard to miniaturize effectively until the transistor revolution started in the 1970s...
I'm skeptical it is that much of a difference considering how deadly they already are and that they don't seem widespread. And a 40mm shell would have fragments that would be as deadly.
And AHEAD doesnt appear to be a proximity fuse, but a anti missile round that uses a canister like design.
Aaron Fox
Well-known member
Only because 35mm guns are designed to create a literal 'bullet hell' than anything until AHEAD came along (and even then AHEAD had to get some 20+ rounds on-target for it to be effective). You've got to understand that the 40mm HEPF shell was -and is, in comparison, still is- a major game-changer in air defense.
It is, essentially, a 'focused flak' design, instead of creating a burst of fragments that is omnidirectional, it creates a 'cone' of sub projectiles (usually tungsten or other hard and dense metal) into the target where the relative velocity rips the aircraft/missile/shell apart. Last I've heard, the originals used a time fuse while newer ones -and this is from what I've heard- are adding proximity fuses based off of 30mm proximity fuse designs.
Vargas Fan
Head over heels in love :)
Marconi tried with the Marksman system to go for a near universal fitting with a turret similar to the Gepard.
Aaron Fox
Well-known member
It did decently, just that AAGs were seen as (comparatively) useless as until very recently they relied on volume (and rate) of fire more than anything. That has changed now given the new requirements and technologies available...
But does the 40mm have enough explosive to make it worthwhile? And what of range?
Is this just your personal opinion or you have other sources?
Navweaps list .25 pounds explosive for the HEI round and these guns were meant as hit to kill so I'm little skeptical of your claim that they're a game changer. Especially when there seems a lack of follow up by the 35mm guns.
And AHEAD sounds like it meant for anti missile work as it is like a shotgun round. It is not a proximity fuse round.