Today I found out that... the Sergeant York wasn't that bad...

Aaron Fox

Well-known member
So, the subject of the Sergeant York SPAAG came up elsewhere and I remembered something from my original research onto SPAAG design (because popular consensus on the York is 'it is everything you must avoid for a SPAAG') for a few settings I'm working on. It was on Quora and, well, the guy who talked about the York had this to say:

Tom Farrier Retired USAF rescue helicopter pilot; current aviation safety contractor (UAS) said:
In 1982 I participated in both cooperative and non-cooperative tests at Aberdeen Proving Grounds in Maryland, flying an Air Force CH-3E helicopter against a Sergeant York. I would have been dead many times over had it been shooting live rounds at us instead of just video.
The Sergeant York was the front-runner in a program intended to provide the Army with a sorely needed “division air defense” (DIVAD) weapon system. It was based on a novel concept: re-purposing M48 Patton tank chassis’ with a new turret incorporating twin Swedish Bofors 40mm cannons and two radar systems — one for area surveillance (the rectangular antenna) and one for targeting (the conical antenna, an off-the-shelf application of the F-16′s radar).

A firing control system integrated the two radars, with on-board software prioritizing targets based on the threat they were assessed to pose to the system itself. (For the late ’70s /early ’80s, this was cosmic.) If the operator elected to allow the system to engage targets hands-off, it would slew the turret around at a nauseatingly rapid rate, taking on each in turn automatically.

On the next-to-last day of the test, my aircraft was joined by an Army AH-1 Cobra and OH-58 Kiowa and two Air Force A-10s. My H-3 was part of the test profile because its radar signature was essentially the same as that of an Mi-24 HIND assault helicopter of the day, which was heavily armed with both anti-tank missiles and rockets. We all converged on it simultaneously from about 6000 meters. My aircraft was the first to die, followed by the two A-10s, then the Cobra, and finally the Kiowa. It took less than 15 seconds to put plenty of hypothetical rounds into each of us.

I spent a depressing amount of that week watching myself get tracked and killed on video. Trying to “mask” behind anything other than rising terrain simply didn’t work; the DIVAD radar got a nice Doppler return off my rotor system if any part of it was within its line of sight, and it burned right through trees just fine. I couldn’t outrun or out-maneuver it laterally; when I moved, it tracked me. I left feeling pretty convinced that it was the Next Big Thing, especially since I’d come into the test pretty cocky thanks to having had a lot of (successful) exercise experience against current Army air defense systems.
So, what happened to the program itself? I think it was a combination of factors. First, the off-the-shelf concept was cool as far as it went, but the Patton design already was a quarter-century old; the DIVAD was awfully slow compared with the M1 Abrams tanks it was supposed to protect. It would have had a lot of trouble keeping up with the pack.

Second, The Atlantic Monthly published a really nasty article (bordering on a hatchet job) purporting to show the program was a complete failure and a ruinous waste of money. One of its most impressive bits of propaganda was an anecdote about a test where the system — on full automatic — took aim at a nearby trailer full of monitoring equipment. Paraphrasing, “It tracked and killed an exhaust fan,” chortled the author. (See The Gun That Shoots Fans for a recounting of this.)

Yeah, it did. It was designed to look for things that rotate (like helicopter main rotor systems) and prioritize them for prompt destruction. If any bad guys were on the battlefield in vehicles with unshrouded exhaust fans, they might have been blown away rather comprehensively. (My understanding at the time was that said fan was part of a rest room in one of the support vehicles and not a “latrine,” but why mess up a good narrative, right?)
To my knowledge, neither ventilated latrines nor RVs full of recording devices are part of a typical Army unit’s table of allowance, so I really doubt there was much of a fratricide threat there. However, the bottom line was that this particular piece of partisan reporting beat the crap out of a program that I believe the Army needed, but already was facing a few developmental issues, and helped hasten its cancellation.

(The New York Times opinion piece linked to above was equally laden with innuendo and assumptions. It made a fair point about possible anti-radiation attacks it might have invited… but there are radars on every battlefield, and there are means of controlling emissions. It compared a late-Fifties era Soviet system — the ZSU-23–4 — with one fully twenty years newer in design. It asserted that it couldn’t hit fixed-wing aircraft, which to my mind and personal observation was arrant nonsense. The only issue it raised that I agree with was possible NATO compatibility problems with the unique 40mm caliber shells the Sergeant York’s guns fired. Funny — the Times pontificated that it wouldn’t be cancelled, too. Oops.)

Third, the hydraulics that were used in the prototype were a 3000 psi system that really couldn’t handle the weight of the turret in its Awesome Hosing Things mode. One of the only times I actually got a score on the system was when I cheated; I deliberately exploited that vulnerability. I flew straight toward the system (which would have blown us out of the sky about twenty times over had I tried to do so for real) until directly over it, then tried to defeat the system from above.

If memory serves, the system specifications called for the guns to elevate to more than 85 degrees if something was coming up and over; it then would lower them quickly, slew the turret 180 degrees around, and raise the guns again to re-engage. It was supposed to be able to do that in perhaps ten seconds (but I’m here to tell you it did it a lot faster than that). So, I had my flight engineer tell me the moment the guns dropped, at which point I did a course reversal maneuver to try to catch it pointed the wrong way. What the video later showed was:
  1. Helicopter flies over.
  2. Traverse/re-acquire movement starts.
  3. Helicopter initiated hammerhead turn (gorgeous, if I say so myself).
  4. Guns started to elevate to re-engage.
  5. Clunk. Guns fall helplessly down; DIVAD crew uses bad language.
The hydraulics hadn’t been able to support the multiple close-on, consecutive demands of movement in multiple axes and failed. Like I said, I cheated. The Army and the contractors already knew about this problem and were going to fit out production models with a 5000 psi system. That might have had some survivability issues of its own, but the Army was perfectly happy that we’d done what we did — it proved the test wasn’t rigged and underscored the need for the production change.

Finally, the Army itself honestly appraised the system based on its progress (and lack of progress) versus their requirements. Wikipedia provides a passage that encapsulates this end-game well: “The M247 OT&E Director, Jack Krings, stated the tests showed, ‘...the SGT YORK was not operationally effective in adequately protecting friendly forces during simulated combat, even though its inherent capabilities provided improvement over the current [General Electric] Vulcan gun system. The SGT YORK was not operationally suitable because of its low availability during the tests.’ ”
I guess I’m forced to conclude that the Sergeant York was a really good concept with some definite developmental flaws — some recognized and being dealt with, perhaps one or two that would have made it less than fully effective in its intended role — that was expensive enough for bad PR to help bring it down before it fully matured. The Army was under a lot of political pressure to get it fielded, but to their credit they decided not to potentially throw good money after bad.

On balance, a lot of the contemporaneous criticisms mounted against the M247 really don’t hold up very well over time. Short-range air defense currently is provided by the latest generation of the AN/MPQ-64F1 Improved Sentinel system. Radar emitting on the battlefield? Check. Target prioritization capabilities? Check. Towed (which equals “slow”) versus self-propelled? Check.

I’m glad we never wound up in the position of needing it but not having it. My personal judgment was and is that it probably could have wound up a heck of a lot more capable and useful than its developmental history might suggest, but its cancellation probably was justified given other acquisition priorities at the time.

Bottom line: I repeatedly flew a helicopter against it over the course of many hours of testing, including coming at it as unpredictably as I knew how, and it cleaned my clock pretty much every time.
From what I understood about this is that it had some flaws, some of those flaws were being rectified, and all it really needed was 5k PSI hydraulics, slapped onto an M60 chassis, barrels that weren't simply worn the shit out because some dumbfuck wanted to be a cheapskate and not order a few dozen 40mm barrels, tweak the fire control a bit more, and it would have been scaring the shit out of USSR helicopter pilots.

The York was designed to utilize a sensor-fused round that Bofors was putting into the market and due to the M42s being beloved by army troops during Vietnam, the US Army wanted a SPAAG that can do infantry support in a pinch.
 

Iconoclast

Perpetually Angry
Obozny
So, the subject of the Sergeant York SPAAG came up elsewhere and I remembered something from my original research onto SPAAG design (because popular consensus on the York is 'it is everything you must avoid for a SPAAG') for a few settings I'm working on. It was on Quora and, well, the guy who talked about the York had this to say:


From what I understood about this is that it had some flaws, some of those flaws were being rectified, and all it really needed was 5k PSI hydraulics, slapped onto an M60 chassis, barrels that weren't simply worn the shit out because some dumbfuck wanted to be a cheapskate and not order a few dozen 40mm barrels, tweak the fire control a bit more, and it would have been scaring the shit out of USSR helicopter pilots.

The York was designed to utilize a sensor-fused round that Bofors was putting into the market and due to the M42s being beloved by army troops during Vietnam, the US Army wanted a SPAAG that can do infantry support in a pinch.

Would've been even better on an Abrams chassis, so it could keep up. Apparently, an M1 Abrams-based air defense platform was something that was actually proposed, back in the day.

GNKD2pN.jpg
 

Aaron Fox

Well-known member
Would've been even better on an Abrams chassis, so it could keep up. Apparently, an M1 Abrams-based air defense platform was something that was actually proposed, back in the day.

GNKD2pN.jpg
Really, either slap the turret onto an M60 or M1 chassis, make sure that the hydraulics were 5k PSI, make sure the barrels aren't worn-out pieces of shit, and it would be serving the US army (and probably marines) for decades. Remember, the US Army wanted the 40mm guns because in Vietnam the 40mm was a fantastic infantry support weapon.

Then there is ADATS, which has everything going for it and then... the Cold War ended (and probably edged on by the Airforce).

In all seriousness, the more I look into the York, the more I see something that would scare the shit out of Soviet-block pilots if it didn't get unceremoniously dumped and screwed over. A SPAAG that requires you to have hills and mountains (or skyscrapers in the case of cities) between you and the SPAAG and uses the 40mm round? Given that the US Army kept throwing helis (and getting the airforce to throw A-10s) at it (until they discovered that they could force the hydraulics to fail and make it useless) and kept getting slaughtered for it...

It's crazy.
 

Iconoclast

Perpetually Angry
Obozny
Really, either slap the turret onto an M60 or M1 chassis, make sure that the hydraulics were 5k PSI, make sure the barrels aren't worn-out pieces of shit, and it would be serving the US army (and probably marines) for decades. Remember, the US Army wanted the 40mm guns because in Vietnam the 40mm was a fantastic infantry support weapon.

Then there is ADATS, which has everything going for it and then... the Cold War ended (and probably edged on by the Airforce).

In all seriousness, the more I look into the York, the more I see something that would scare the shit out of Soviet-block pilots if it didn't get unceremoniously dumped and screwed over. A SPAAG that requires you to have hills and mountains (or skyscrapers in the case of cities) between you and the SPAAG and uses the 40mm round? Given that the US Army kept throwing helis (and getting the airforce to throw A-10s) at it (until they discovered that they could force the hydraulics to fail and make it useless) and kept getting slaughtered for it...

It's crazy.

Back then, twin 40mm guns guided by such a sophisticated radar and electronics package would indeed have been a serious advantage on the battlefield. These days, SPAAGs as a concept are almost obsolete except for defense against helicopters. Most of the serious gun-based AA systems are almost completely robotic, like the Oerlikon GDF. Other than that, short and medium-range SAMs have superseded gun-based systems almost completely. Russia has the very impressive Tor missile system, which uses vertically-launched SAMs instead of an erector.





If the Army ever adopts a serious ground-based mobile SAM in the near future, it should follow this example. Patriots and Stingers are kinda antiquated, to be honest. However, due to the strength of NATO air dominance, the standard doctrine in recent decades has been to engage enemy aircraft using allied aircraft. Personally, I think this is a mistake. One cannot always assume that airspace dominance will exist, and in those types of scenarios, it would be very beneficial to have a highly modern and robust surface-to-air capability. ;)
 

Aaron Fox

Well-known member
You need a radar that works reliability with ground obstacles, not the one from the F-16.
Actually, it did work reliably. The apparent problem was that they haven't gotten all the bugs with the fire system out and hadn't gotten the sensitivity just right (hence why it was picking up ventilation fans of civilian assets as targets). The pilots who worked against the thing noted that it is literally impossible to fight against unless you literally have hills, mountains, or buildings between you and the York (i.e the 'shoot through trees' comment by the heli-pilot).

That would make pop-up attacks useless unless you've got a mast sensor that is tall enough to simply peak above any terrain between you and a fully-functioning York and arching missiles.
Back then, twin 40mm guns guided by such a sophisticated radar and electronics package would indeed have been a serious advantage on the battlefield. These days, SPAAGs as a concept are almost obsolete except for defense against helicopters. Most of the serious gun-based AA systems are almost completely robotic, like the Oerlikon GDF. Other than that, short and medium-range SAMs have superseded gun-based systems almost completely. Russia has the very impressive Tor missile system, which uses vertically-launched SAMs instead of an erector.





If the Army ever adopts a serious ground-based mobile SAM in the near future, it should follow this example. However, due to the strength of NATO air dominance, the standard doctrine in recent decades has been to engage enemy aircraft using allied aircraft. Personally, I think this is a mistake. One cannot always assume that airspace dominance will exist, and in those types of scenarios, it would be very beneficial to have a highly modern and robust surface-to-air capability. ;)

I see that gun-style SPAAGs will be a thing again thanks to FELs or just simply with better sensor-fused ammunition like AHEAD. The only way out for munitions and aircraft to defend against such weapons is Battletech-style armor as hypersonic velocities are useless against pulse FELs (because pulse FELs tuned to the frequency of the plasma sheaths of hypersonic ordinance/vehicles solves all problems).

Also, it is appearing that NATO and friends are working on developing better AD capability, or at least modernizing it.
 

Iconoclast

Perpetually Angry
Obozny
Actually, it did work reliably. The apparent problem was that they haven't gotten all the bugs with the fire system out and hadn't gotten the sensitivity just right (hence why it was picking up ventilation fans of civilian assets as targets). The pilots who worked against the thing noted that it is literally impossible to fight against unless you literally have hills, mountains, or buildings between you and the York (i.e the 'shoot through trees' comment by the heli-pilot).

That would make pop-up attacks useless unless you've got a mast sensor that is tall enough to simply peak above any terrain between you and a fully-functioning York and arching missiles.

I see that gun-style SPAAGs will be a thing again thanks to FELs or just simply with better sensor-fused ammunition like AHEAD. The only way out for munitions and aircraft to defend against such weapons is Battletech-style armor as hypersonic velocities are useless against pulse FELs (because pulse FELs tuned to the frequency of the plasma sheaths of hypersonic ordinance/vehicles solves all problems).

Also, it is appearing that NATO and friends are working on developing better AD capability, or at least modernizing it.

Things like lasers and railguns are a whole different ball game. I've seen suggestions for railgun air defense systems that use bursting charges to scatter tons of high-velocity frag over a large area. Lasers promise to offer huge advantages for the Navy, and that's because warships have all the space needed for the power generation and cooling systems for such weapons. Also, because they strike the target immediately and have no ballistic drop, lasers are also ideal in poor sea states, where there is a great deal of relative motion between the ship and its target. Much, much easier than trying to estimate the trajectory on a ballistic weapon. However, lasers are also vulnerable to atmospheric scattering, and they can't attack targets over the horizon, of course.

Lasers and railguns as ground-based systems? Well, laser-based systems have been done before, like MTHEL, and they work. They work very well. The problem is, they are clunky as hell.



You need like, multiple ISO shipping containers full of stuff to run these things.

Solid-state and liquid laser tech is gaining ground, and we may soon see practical ground-based lasers being employed in AA, anti-drone, and counter rocket, artillery, and mortar roles. Many new prototypes are being developed, and they look very promising.




 

Aaron Fox

Well-known member
Things like lasers and railguns are a whole different ball game. I've seen suggestions for railgun air defense systems that use bursting charges to scatter tons of high-velocity frag over a large area. Lasers promise to offer huge advantages for the Navy, and that's because warships have all the space needed for the power generation and cooling systems for such weapons. Also, because they strike the target immediately and have no ballistic drop, lasers are also ideal in poor sea states, where there is a great deal of relative motion between the ship and its target. Much, much easier than trying to estimate the trajectory on a ballistic weapon. However, lasers are also vulnerable to atmospheric scattering, and they can't attack targets over the horizon, of course.

Lasers and railguns as ground-based systems? Well, laser-based systems have been done before, like MTHEL, and they work. They work very well. The problem is, they are clunky as hell.



You need like, multiple ISO shipping containers full of stuff to run these things.

Solid-state and liquid laser tech is gaining ground, and we may soon see practical ground-based lasers being employed in AA, anti-drone, and counter rocket, artillery, and mortar roles. Many new prototypes are being developed, and they look very promising.





Actually, at first, I'm seeing that FEL SPAAGs will be similar to the OTOMATIC system. Basically a tank with a naval piece latched onto it as time goes on. As laser tech matures, it is likely you'll get laser ADS systems...
 

CurtisLemay

Wargamer, Amateur Historian, Writer
Nuke Mod
Moderator
Staff Member
Founder
Actually, at first, I'm seeing that FEL SPAAGs will be similar to the OTOMATIC system. Basically a tank with a naval piece latched onto it as time goes on. As laser tech matures, it is likely you'll get laser ADS systems...

That would be a scary ass system...and if you are able to keep the PD software, something that can engage multiple airborne objects within seconds going a bit slower than your average anti-ship missile.
 

Aaron Fox

Well-known member
That would be a scary ass system...and if you are able to keep the PD software, something that can engage multiple airborne objects within seconds going a bit slower than your average anti-ship missile.
The only counter would be Battletech-style armor for aircraft and Battletech/Macross level missile spam for missiles.
 

Tiamat

I've seen the future...
Just for the record, I want to thank you all for the information here as I'm writing a WW3 fanfic for Sietch. After a chat with CurtisLemay, for this fictional 'verse I'm writing up a "what if" version of the Sgt. York that will go through a bit of an...upgrade and will be seeing action on the battlefields of Europe (and elsewhere) with a vengeance.

For what it's worth I've already got two other ADA vehicles written up for the fic, one based on the Bradley chassis and the other on an M1 chassis.
 

Aaron Fox

Well-known member
Just for the record, I want to thank you all for the information here as I'm writing a WW3 fanfic for Sietch. After a chat with CurtisLemay, for this fictional 'verse I'm writing up a "what if" version of the Sgt. York that will go through a bit of an...upgrade and will be seeing action on the battlefields of Europe (and elsewhere) with a vengeance.

For what it's worth I've already got two other ADA vehicles written up for the fic, one based on the Bradley chassis and the other on an M1 chassis.
You're welcome, the odd thing about this is like the AH-56, it needed some rework and it would have been part of the US arsenal.
 

Tiamat

I've seen the future...
You're welcome, the odd thing about this is like the AH-56, it needed some rework and it would have been part of the US arsenal.

To summarize in this 'verse I'm working on, things start going to hell in October '86 with Gorbachev deposed in a coup, and gets the 9mm retirement package. Other events occur over the next few years and it all goes to hell from there.

In this timeframe, Reagan is still in charge and authorizes the biggest defense increase in history since WW2, with the U.S. resuming the role of the Arsenal of Democracy and pumping out lots of EVERYTHING. Several experimental weapon systems are placed into production, with a few other programs that were being worked on earlier dusted off and revisited including the RDF Light Tank, F-20 Tigershark, and the M247 Sgt. York.


Forgive the shameless plug. :p
 

Aaron Fox

Well-known member
To summarize in this 'verse I'm working on, things start going to hell in October '86 with Gorbachev deposed in a coup, and gets the 9mm retirement package. Other events occur over the next few years and it all goes to hell from there.

In this timeframe, Reagan is still in charge and authorizes the biggest defense increase in history since WW2, with the U.S. resuming the role of the Arsenal of Democracy and pumping out lots of EVERYTHING. Several experimental weapon systems are placed into production, with a few other programs that were being worked on earlier dusted off and revisited including the RDF Light Tank, F-20 Tigershark, and the M247 Sgt. York.


Forgive the shameless plug. :p
So... something akin to a World in Conflict situation?
 

Tiamat

I've seen the future...
So... something akin to a World in Conflict situation?

Kinda yes and no? I'm taking inspiration from a bunch of sources: Twilight 2000, Fury, Sir John Hackett's WW3: 1985, Team Yankee, Red Storm Rising, Red Dawn, etc. But yes, very much a worldwide conflict. There's more in the world to destroy than just Europe, you know. 😉

And here's the entry I have for the M247 Sgt. York:

M247 "Sgt. York" DIVAD/SPAAG (Division Air Defense/Self Propelled Anti-Aircraft Gun)

The M247 Sgt. York was a program to develop a new self-propelled anti-aircraft artillery weapon for Division-level defense, but had a bit of a delayed and controversial development process. The system itself, in spite of some bugs and flaws in the system, along with a rather dubious thrashing by the Western press (specifically the New York Times and Atlantic Monthly) seemed to show some promise. Development was stopped in 1985, but was soon revisited again when the world situation began to deteriorate and Reagan announced the newly expanded defense bill, and the Army was in dire need of as many air defense assets as it could acquire. The fact that the reporters who "exposed" the flaws in the original system were later discredited when they were found together in a "compromising position with contraband items" by police also helped spur the Pentagon and Ford Aerospace to revisit the program and try a new approach. The vehicle was mated to an M60 chassis with an improved engine and transmission. Further development in electronics miniaturization and computer processing allowed the contractors to improve the overall fire control suite and work out most of the bugs. A 5000psi hydraulic system was installed in the turret to better handle the main guns. The main guns themselves had the original, worn L60 40mm Bofors cannons removed, and new Bofors L70 40mm cannons built by Oto Melares installed. Lastly, the fire control suite was given the option to fire either "standard" 40mm ammunition, or a new sensor-fused ammunition developed by Bofors for use against aerial targets, though this ammunition also soon found a very effective use as an airbursting munition against soft-skinned targets and troops in the open. Accelerated trials with the vehicle resulted in a platform that could finally keep up with the American armor formations, could track various targets even at treetop level, and could put out a veritable and deadly "wall of steel and flak" accurately at various aerial and ground targets. The only drawback is that it resulted in a vehicle that cost more than the program was meant to originally, but had resulted in a far superior vehicle regardless. Congress grudgingly made room in the budget for a battalion's worth of the vehicles, which initially were found operating alongside M60 tanks with the U.S. Marines and National Guard units, before it's use was spread out to other elements of the US Army as well. Foreign customers also expressed an interest in the vehicle, and this was where it found wider success as it was soon picked up for service by Austria, Israel, Italy, Taiwan, and Turkey. The system became even more popular to buyers in the postwar period as it was judged to be a far superior vehicle to surplus ZSU-23-4 vehicles.
 

Aaron Fox

Well-known member
Kinda yes and no? I'm taking inspiration from a bunch of sources: Twilight 2000, Fury, Sir John Hackett's WW3: 1985, Team Yankee, Red Storm Rising, Red Dawn, etc. But yes, very much a worldwide conflict. There's more in the world to destroy than just Europe, you know. 😉





World in Conflict was the last Great RTT (Real Time Tactics) game in the industry and takes place in Bush Sr.'s term as President. It is probably one of the most balanced and well thought out games I've seen, building upon the entirety of the Ground Control series (1, Dark Conspiracy, and 2) and improving it. It also has one of the more interesting stories that I've seen set in the scenario, as it includes the US being invaded via Seattle. It is... something else to see Captain Bannon's entire character arc seen through or see Malashenko's transformation.

The game only covers the US, Russia, and Europe in the campaign because each mission is something of a marathon in length, especially later when you have to juggle everything at once at the harder difficulties (the US/NATO campaign is like 14 (7 US missions, 7 NATO missions) missions while the USSR campaign is 6). In multiplayer, you get to visit Asia as well. ;)
 

Tiamat

I've seen the future...
So....last night, I had a crazy idea....rest assured, there was no alcohol involved...at least AFAIK. And if this isn't the thread for this notion, let me know.
-
So let's say the Sgt. York gets resurrected as discussed. Around this same time the US Army had purchased in modest amounts the Roland SAM system that was jointly developed by the French and Germans. IRL, it was only fielded by the National Guard in limited capacity as due to issues with technology transfer and also a bit of the old "Not Invented Here" rearing it's ugly head. Interestingly enough, also in real life the US Army purchased several lots of the Roland for further eval after the initial failure of the Sgt. York program.

But let's assume with an increase in tensions worldwide, and with the success of Sgt. York, the eggheads get another idea, after looking at the CORAD (Coordinated Roland Air Defense) system that integrates a radar and several Roland launchers and ADA guns. The radar systems used in Sgt. York are modified for use with the American Roland system to allow joint integration into a true gun-and-missile ADA system that can be used not just to protect armored formations but critical junctures like bridges, command posts, etc. After some tweaking and accelerated trials, the results are even more promising with the French and Germans offered to participate and observe. The American Roland system consisting of a remote turret with twin Roland launchers is mated with the new radars and fire control suite to a modified M60 chassis with a slightly raised superstructure to help accommodate the internal storage of additional Roland SAMS and an automatic reloading system. A version based on the M2 chassis was also tried but the M60 chassis was more plentiful as M2's were already prioritized for other programs. Overall the program combining the Sgt. York with American Roland in a joint package that integrates both vehicles is a success that led to Congress financing not just procurement of the Sgt. York, but also more Roland systems from the French-German manufacturer Euromissile. In the case of the American Roland ADA system, it was dubbed M248 Roland.

The French and Germans, for their part were quite impressed with the result, so much that an agreement was reached when the Americans began purchasing more Roland's, the French and Germans also procured elements of the Sgt. York for their use. In the case of the Germans, the modified radar components were brought and tested on the Flakpanzer Gepard with appreciable results, and an upgrade program was implemented for the system that combined the radars and fire control along with adding twin racks of Stinger antiaircraft missiles to the turrets for added firepower. As for the French, they found themselves in need a of a new, far more capable ADA artillery vehicle than the current AMX-13 DCA in the French Army. The turret, armament, radar and fire control of the Sgt. York was purchased and modified to fit onto an AMX-30 chassis, resulting in a system that was better capable at defending the French armored formations from air threats. The vehicle, dubbed AMX-30 DCA, was often nicknamed the "French York" by NATO troops, as one French general later stated, "the vehicle embodies the spirit of Sgt. York who valiantly defended France during the first Great War."

So....how's that sound??
 

Aaron Fox

Well-known member
So....last night, I had a crazy idea....rest assured, there was no alcohol involved...at least AFAIK. And if this isn't the thread for this notion, let me know.
-
So let's say the Sgt. York gets resurrected as discussed. Around this same time the US Army had purchased in modest amounts the Roland SAM system that was jointly developed by the French and Germans. IRL, it was only fielded by the National Guard in limited capacity as due to issues with technology transfer and also a bit of the old "Not Invented Here" rearing it's ugly head. Interestingly enough, also in real life the US Army purchased several lots of the Roland for further eval after the initial failure of the Sgt. York program.

But let's assume with an increase in tensions worldwide, and with the success of Sgt. York, the eggheads get another idea, after looking at the CORAD (Coordinated Roland Air Defense) system that integrates a radar and several Roland launchers and ADA guns. The radar systems used in Sgt. York are modified for use with the American Roland system to allow joint integration into a true gun-and-missile ADA system that can be used not just to protect armored formations but critical junctures like bridges, command posts, etc. After some tweaking and accelerated trials, the results are even more promising with the French and Germans offered to participate and observe. The American Roland system consisting of a remote turret with twin Roland launchers is mated with the new radars and fire control suite to a modified M60 chassis with a slightly raised superstructure to help accommodate the internal storage of additional Roland SAMS and an automatic reloading system. A version based on the M2 chassis was also tried but the M60 chassis was more plentiful as M2's were already prioritized for other programs. Overall the program combining the Sgt. York with American Roland in a joint package that integrates both vehicles is a success that led to Congress financing not just procurement of the Sgt. York, but also more Roland systems from the French-German manufacturer Euromissile. In the case of the American Roland ADA system, it was dubbed M248 Roland.

The French and Germans, for their part were quite impressed with the result, so much that an agreement was reached when the Americans began purchasing more Roland's, the French and Germans also procured elements of the Sgt. York for their use. In the case of the Germans, the modified radar components were brought and tested on the Flakpanzer Gepard with appreciable results, and an upgrade program was implemented for the system that combined the radars and fire control along with adding twin racks of Stinger antiaircraft missiles to the turrets for added firepower. As for the French, they found themselves in need a of a new, far more capable ADA artillery vehicle than the current AMX-13 DCA in the French Army. The turret, armament, radar and fire control of the Sgt. York was purchased and modified to fit onto an AMX-30 chassis, resulting in a system that was better capable at defending the French armored formations from air threats. The vehicle, dubbed AMX-30 DCA, was often nicknamed the "French York" by NATO troops, as one French general later stated, "the vehicle embodies the spirit of Sgt. York who valiantly defended France during the first Great War."

So....how's that sound??
Eh, the Rolands are big enough that you'll need to have a reloading vehicle, but the overall idea is sound. Although I was thinking that ADATS would be a better fit, given by the end of the Cold War, the US was just about to put Bradley ADATS into production...
 

Tiamat

I've seen the future...
Eh, the Rolands are big enough that you'll need to have a reloading vehicle, but the overall idea is sound. Although I was thinking that ADATS would be a better fit, given by the end of the Cold War, the US was just about to put Bradley ADATS into production...

It would, but as I recall the ADATS, while it had great potential, still had some teething issues, performance in inclement weather apparently one of them, at least according to US Army testing. However the Canadians had already started field use of them on modified M113 chassis along with potential use on a modified LAV chassis, though IRL I don't think the LAV variant ever came about.

Really depends IMO if they can get the bugs worked out in time. I would think the York/Roland joint system might be more of a stopgap measure until ADATS can get properly implemented...
 

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