The War in Afghanistan

[GoldRanger]

Looks like flights out of Kabul have been momentarily suspended due to the masses of people on the tarmac.

No flights leaving Kabul as desperate people crowd tarmac, Germany says

No evacuation flights are leaving Kabul airport at the moment because desperate people trying to flee the country are blocking the tarmac, a spokesperson for the German foreign ministry said on Monday.

www.reuters.com

Good. If I were an Afghan citizen I would have been trying to mob the American troops there, or take their weapons. This humanitarian crisis is disgusting, people are literally tying themselves to planes and then falling down as they take off. All my contempt for America right now.

 

[Marduk]

No. Tuesday times one thousand is more like it. What you seen up to this point is only a promo.



1. I'm not talking about Afghanistan alone, but American policy in general.

2. Everything is interconnected. The effect of what happened yesterday in Kabul will be felt with dozens of allies and enemies alike for decades to pass. The US will find itself with less allies and more enemies all around the world.

True. However, its not as black and white. If USA ends up with its fake allies revealing themselves to be true enemies, that's hardly a bad thing.
It comes back to a similar situation as with weird reactions to US complaints against certain NATO members ridiculously underspending on their military.
Its great to have allies, but if the relationship they have with you is openly parasitical, perhaps its not so great. Perhaps to maintain standards and conventions sometimes examples need to be made, preferably out of few worst offenders, by cutting them off.
And i couldn't imagine a better candidate for that than the Afghan government.

There's a difference between saying that you shouldn't have been there in the first place (understandable) and pulling out after making a huge mess of things. What you have broken now cannot be unbroken.

No, the place seriously was a huge mess already before 2001, for the very same reasons it is now.
It's an interesting read what was going on there between Soviets leaving and 2001.
You cannot break what was already completely broken.

Yes, and not without the involvement of your enemies, the same enemies you're encouraging and emboldening with your disgraceful weakness.

Which is yet another reason for picking one's battles, and specifically not picking ones that are impossible to win.

Because they're an ocean and a continent away from the ME, just like the US?

Yet USA has that problem. Even distant Sweden does. What makes the difference?

And the refugees already inside are not going to allow Europe to change its ways. And they'll get more and more numerous and radicalized as time passes.

If current policy course continues, of course. That's the problem. If Europe doesn't get this shit in order within its own borders, and put a hard "or else" in front of the troublemakers, half hearted attempts to improve the situation outside of them aren't going to change much.

For some reason you think that if you leave the Muslims alone, they'll leave you alone in return and you can wash your hands off of that mess. It doesn't work that way in those cultures. Making you run away from the ME with your tail between your legs is only Phase 1 as far as they're concerned.

Perhaps they won't. Quite possible, there is a whole lot of historical examples of that. However, these examples were not ended by "nation building" and coddling local corruptocrats while pretending they are friends. They were ended by sufficient and enthusiastic application of military power to the culprits and everything they hold dear.
Currently most of the west has no stomach or political will for that. But if the Muslims won't leave them alone no matter what, perhaps they will develop some.

 

[GoldRanger]

Perhaps they won't. Quite possible, there is a whole lot of historical examples of that. However, these examples were not ended by "nation building" and coddling local corruptocrats while pretending they are friends. They were ended by sufficient and enthusiastic application of military power to the culprits and everything they hold dear.
Currently most of the west has no stomach or political will for that. But if the Muslims won't leave them alone no matter what, perhaps they will develop some.

By the time the west wakes up the damage will be done. It will be much harder to wind the clock back. Attacking Afghanistan will be much harder if, say, the Taliban ends up acquiring modern SAM from China, and even worse if they acquire IRBMs and reach an accord with Iran (currently doesn't seem unlikely). Your thinking is too small. A decade ago nobody imagined ISIS. What's going to happen one decade in the future?

If you leave your enemies alone they get stronger, while the US is on a course to get weaker with its current internal turmoil and the economic fallout from both COVID and the consequences of your new foreign policy.

You are protected by a world order you take for granted while advocating for tearing it down with your own hands. World orders change.

If USA ends up with its fake allies revealing themselves to be true enemies, that's hardly a bad thing.

You've got it backwards, currently it's the Americans that are revealing themselves as fake to their allies, whether the Afghanis, the Kurds and others. And you can be certain that everyone is taking notes.

I'm finished with this conversation at the moment. Our respective positions are pretty clear, there's no longer any point to this.

 

[GoldRanger]

"They seem friendly"

CNN does what it does best, sucking up to America's enemies. Hope she likes that new look.

 

[Marduk]

By the time the west wakes up the damage will be done. It will be much harder to wind the clock back. Attacking Afghanistan will be much harder if, say, the Taliban ends up acquiring modern SAM from China, and even worse if they acquire IRBMs and reach an accord with Iran (currently doesn't seem unlikely). Your thinking is too small. A decade ago nobody imagined ISIS. What's going to happen one decade in the future?

The Taliban can't even keep their old Stingers in functional state, how are they going to do that with modern SAMs and IRBMs?
China is not going to give them free toys for them to start stupid fights and get their precious infrastructure bombed.
Neither will Pakistan. The Taliban are meant to be a bunch of savages whose leash only ISI holds, just barely at that, and can make Afghanistan ungovernable at a whim through the leash holder loosening his grip a bit, in turn making ISI able to cheaply buy favors from everyone who wants anything done in Afghanistan or near its borders.

Overall, if USA wants to get a handle of Afghanistan, the first and necessary step to that is to get a handle on Pakistan, and that is just impossible when Pakistan holds the card of thousands of US troops stuck in Afghanistan, reliant on Pakistan for supply lines. Otherwise its just an exercise in futility and being toyed with by ISI and corruptocrats.
Meanwhile Pakistan are precisely the ones who already have nuclear IRBMs and Chinese made modern SAMs since decades, yet pretend to be US allies.

If you leave your enemies alone they get stronger, while the US is on a course to get weaker with its current internal turmoil and the economic fallout from both COVID and the consequences of your new foreign policy.

You are correct, and in light of the above, it implies USA should instead focus on alliance with India and supporting it in its conflict with Pakistan, with aim of either forcing Pakistan to the table, or if it fails to show up, supporting India in its conflict with Pakistan to weaken it.

You are protected by a world order you take for granted while advocating for tearing it down with your own hands. World orders change.

I'm not American, and do not mistake me for one of the delusional full isolationists. I just realize that even USA has neither the stomach nor the means to fight everyone for everything, even in most asymmetrically costly circumstances. If that order is to mostly remain, it needs to be optimized.

You've got it backwards, currently it's the Americans that are revealing themselves as fake to their allies, whether the Afghanis, the Kurds and others. And you can be certain that everyone is taking notes.

That's a naive, PR friendly perspective. There are allies, and there are also clients, convenient proxies and outright pawns. Both Afghanis and Kurds are more accurately described as one of the latter than the former. Its not the PR take, but all the world powers understand such differences.
In the end Afghanis didn't fight much for themselves, and the Kurds, well, they have their own hang ups that are irreconcilable.

 

[GoldRanger]

Afghan military plane 'shot down over border' with pilot forced to eject

A military jet from Afghanistan came down after crossing the border into Uzbekistan, with footage on social media showing a bloodied man wearing a military uniform being given medical aid

www.mirror.co.uk

Afghani super Tucano shot down by Uzbekistan as the pilot crossed the border to escape the Taliban. The pilot survived.

 

[StormEagle]

Good. If I were an Afghan citizen I would have been trying to mob the American troops there, or take their weapons. This humanitarian crisis is disgusting, people are literally tying themselves to planes and then falling down as they take off. All my contempt for America right now.

What, realistically, did you want us to do at this point Israeli?

Waste another twenty years, thousands of lives, and another trillion dollars on a war that cannot be won on behalf of a corrupt government that can’t even hold together for a week?

How many American lives needed to be wasted for you to be happy with the outcome? How many soldiers needed to lose their lives or their minds fighting a worthless war that provided no tangible benefit to their own country?

How much money needed to be thrown away into that hell pit before you’d be satisfied? How many lives sacrificed, families destroyed, decades wasted would have been enough for you? Another ten years? Twenty? One-hundred?

We should have left eighteen years ago when we should have realized that there was no victory to be had here. Or at least, no victory that would be pleasing to democratic values.

Instead we continued throwing blood and money into the ever ravenous maw of that wind-swept hell, and received nothing in return for it.

So tell me, why the hell should we just keep doing that?

 

[GoldRanger]

What, realistically, did you want us to do at this point Israeli?

Waste another twenty years, thousands of lives, and another trillion dollars on a war that cannot be won on behalf of a corrupt government that can’t even hold together for a week?

How many American lives needed to be wasted for you to be happy with the outcome? How many soldiers needed to lose their lives or their minds fighting a worthless war that provided no tangible benefit to their own country?

How much money needed to be thrown away into that hell pit before you’d be satisfied? How many lives sacrificed, families destroyed, decades wasted would have been enough for you? Another ten years? Twenty? One-hundred?

I’m We should have left eighteen years ago when we should have realized that there was no victory to be had here. Or at least, no victory that would be pleasing to democratic values.

Instead we continued throwing blood and money into the ever ravenous maw of that wind-swept hell, and received nothing in return for it.

So tell me, why the hell should we just keep doing that?

I'll be satisfied when you clean up the messes YOU caused.

 

[StormEagle]

I'll be satisfied when you clean up the messes YOU caused.

So we should have been stuck in forever then? Because there is no “cleaning up” Afghanistan. Not in a way that would have been acceptable to western morals anyways.

Why should we be chained to the graveyard of empires for eternity? At some point, you learn your lesson and cut your losses.

 

[Marduk]

I'll be satisfied when you clean up the messes YOU caused.

This is a ridiculous claim.
Here's some look at what mess it was before Americans went there.

Crisis of Impunity - Pakistan's Support Of The Taliban

www.hrw.org

For extra points its HRW, an organization you can hardly accuse of being pro-American.

 

[Husky_Khan]

I know your all wondering it... and yes... I've been looking into it. What has happened to your FAVORITE AFGHANISTAN WARLORD?

(Former) President Ashraf Ghani - Afghanistan's 14th... or 2nd President depending on how you measure it, fled Kabul with four carloads of cash but sadly, reportedly had to leave five million dollars USD behind in the airport. He was rejected from entry to Tajikistan and is now in the Gulf State of Oman. He will likely return to the United States now, where he was a citizen prior to 2009 and had lived in for several decades prior to December 2001. Will he get a teaching position? Will he become a commentator on CNN? Perhaps he'll run for California Governor? Only time will tell.

Former Afghan Prez Ashraf Ghani in Oman after Tajikistan denied landing, likely to head to US

KABUL: Former Afghan President Ashraf Ghani is in Oman after Tajikistan denied landing yesterday. He is likely to head to the US. Former NSA Mohib is also with Ghani in Oman.

keralakaumudi.com

Vice President Abdullah Abdullah - Afghanistan's Vice President and runner up in the 2019 elections, due to a power sharing agreement between him and Ghani, Abdullah Abdullah was put in charge of negotiations with the Taliban. Due to recent events, that position seems somewhat perfunctory. By all reports Abdullah Abdullah remains in Kabul and threw some shade on the departing President Ghani stating: "The former President of Afghanistan has left Afghanistan … He has left the nation in this state [for that] God will hold him to account." It's believed he is angling to work with an interim government. Fun fact: Abdullah was just his first name but due to insistence he get a surname to serve in politics he chose the name Abdullah Abdullah. What a jokester.

Former President Hamid Karzai - Afghanistans first President who was famous for rocking that sheepskin hat, by all reports, remains in Kabul and has stated he wished to oversee the transition or interim government and a desire to work with the Taliban in Making Afghanistan Great Again (my words, not his). He recently made a videotaped plea for Afghans to remain calm and in their homes which is what the Taliban already want for the Women so halfway there already. Despite his prior history, there is only a small chance of odds that he ends up hanging from a street lamp. Good luck Habibi.

In Video With Daughters, Afghanistan's Hamid Karzai Appeals To Taliban

Former Afghanistan president Hamid Karzai has asked both government forces and the Taliban to protect the people as the terrorists, set to take over power in the country, entered the national capital Kabul.

www.ndtv.com

Gelbuddin Hekmatyar - Perhaps one of the most famous Warlords of the Soviet Era, Gelbuddin was always anti-West but also anti-Taliban and thus was exiled in Iran when the Taliban took over the country back in 1996. After the US Invasion however, from his sanctuary in Iran he played both sides, supporting some Taliban groups and then the Government until he was invited back into Afghanistan back in 2016. It's believed he is currently working with the Taliban in an effort to transition them peacefully into power and may have played a part in bringing Mohammad Ismail to surrender and defect to the Taliban during the Siege of Herat.

Marshal Rashid Dostum - Perhaps my favorite Warlord and undoubtedly yours as well, if you haven't read Doug Stanton's book The Horse Soldiers or the 2018 War film 12 Strong then do yourself a favor and watch or read it because this affable Uzbek was a delight. During the 2021 Taliban Offensive his miltia forces were abandoned by the mass surrender of the Afghan Defense Forces and despite reports of hard fighting, General Rashid Dostum was actually in Turkey undegoing medical treatment when things went awry but briefly returned to Afghanistan before fleeing to Uzbekistan and ultimately vowed to return to Afghanistan to crush the Taliban. It's important to have life goals. Social media was filled with videos and pictures of Taliban fighters milling about his opulent palatial mansion in the northern city of Mazar-i-Sharif.

Atta Noor- Another Uzbek Warlord, Atta Noor was with General Dostum when everything went tits up these past few weeks and is also reportedly in Uzbekistan after a failed attempt to head to the frontlines to shore up local militia forces. Atta Noor detailed a "conspiracy" between the Afghan Defense forces, stating how they didn't fight and simply turned over their weapons and equipment to the Taliban, leaving their militia forces in an untenable position.

Afghan militia leaders Atta Noor, Dostum escape 'conspiracy'

Two of Afghanistan's most notorious regional strongmen fled on Saturday as the northern city of Mazar-i-Sharif fell to the Taliban and security forces abandoned the city in a headlong rush up the highway to the safety of neighbouring Uzbekistan.

www.reuters.com

Who is Abdul Rashid Dostum? Video of Taliban rebels resting at ex-Afghan VP's home goes viral

Taliban rebels took over Mazar-i-Sharif, and were seen feasting at the lavish palace of general and former vice president Abdul Rashid Dostum

meaww.com

Ismail Khan - A Tajik Warlord who like Dostum and Noor was a member of the OG Northern Alliance, Ismail Khan was actually a rival of General Dostum and the two had a deep antipathy for each other. Operating largely out of Western Iran in the city of Herat and with an unknown amount of Iranian backing, Ismail Khan's militia forces alongside Afghan defense forces apparently attempted a spirited defense of Herat and for some time had some success but on August 12th Herat fell and Ismail Khan was captured whilst trying to escape the city by helicopter. After negotiations he surrendered his forces and now is apparently encouraging work with the Taliban with his forces joining that of the Taliban.

Taliban captures Afghan commander Ismail Khan after fall of Herat

The ‘Lion of Herat’ returned to the front lines in western city last month amid the growing threat from the Taliban.

www.aljazeera.com

Kamran Shah - An Oxford educated deputy-Commander of the Mujahadeen, he was instrumental in assisting British Intelligence in stopping a Heroin smuggling operation under the Soviet General Koskov during the Soviet War in Afghanistan and famously led a horse mounted assault on a Soviet Airbase. After the war he changed his name, emigrated to the West and worked in the Import-Export business, dealing in antiquities. During this time he apparently became radicalized and founded the 'The Crimson Jihad and was implicated and stopped from a terrorist operation which involved the smuggling of MIRV warheads into the United States via Florida. He was killed by a Sidewinder missile fired from a Harrier Jump Jet during a skirmish in downtown Miami.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/salim-abu-aziz-886280215

 

[GoldRanger]

So we should have been stuck in forever then? Because there is no “cleaning up” Afghanistan. Not in anyway that would have been acceptable to western morals anyways.

Why should we be chained to the graveyard of empires for eternity? At some point, you learn your lesson and cut your losses.

I don't care how you do it, that's up to you. I don't have a clean solution for you. If you want to leave then go ahead, but you shouldn't have left that mess behind.

This is a ridiculous claim.
Here's some look at what mess it was before Americans went there.

Crisis of Impunity - Pakistan's Support Of The Taliban

www.hrw.org

For extra points its HRW, an organization you can hardly accuse of being pro-American.

I categorically reject your argument. The fact that matters sucked before America doesn't change the fact that they messed it up even more. An entire generation that grew up in what can be viewed as a westernized country will now have to contend with being ruled by savages just a step above ISIS, and with a nice arsenal of abandoned American weapons to boot.

 

[AnimalNoodles]

I don't care how you do it, that's up to you. I don't have a clean solution for you. If you want to leave then go ahead, but you shouldn't have left that mess behind.

They shouldnt have been there to begin with. It was never in Americas interest.

I categorically reject your argument. The fact that matters sucked before America doesn't change the fact that they messed it up even more. An entire generation that grew up in what can be viewed as a westernized country will now have to contend with being ruled by savages just a step above ISIS, and with a nice arsenal of abandoned American weapons to boot.

😂

The Taliban is what the people want. Let them have it. The Taliban is no threat to me. Why should I care if they want to impose their tribal superstitions on Afghanistan.

 

[GoldRanger]

They shouldnt have been there to begin with. It was never in Americas interest.

Maybe you should have or maybe you shouldn't have, but the second you DID come there you had a responsibility. The clock doesn't turn backwards. And there WILL be consequences for America down the line, ones you'll feel personally.

😂

The Taliban is what the people want.

A delusional take. They don't want the Taliban.

Let them have it. The Taliban is no threat to me. Why should I care if they want to impose their tribal superstitions on Afghanistan.

"Fuck you, I got mine"

You caused this mess.

Afghanis trying to get into the airport.



Own it, coward.

 

[AnimalNoodles]

Maybe you should have or maybe you shouldn't have, but the second you DID come there you had a responsibility. The clock doesn't turn backwards. And there WILL be consequences for America down the line, ones you'll feel personally.

A delusional take. They don't want the Taliban.

Yes they do. thats why they won.

"Fuck you, I got mine"
You caused this mess.
Afghanis trying to get into the airport.



Own it, coward.

lol not my problem. Its a problem for you though. If you care so much, let them into israel. Tikkun the olam and give them refuge.

 

[GoldRanger]

Yes they do. thats why they won.

Prove it.

lol not my problem.

Then you wonder why people hate Americans. You caused this, and now you're literally gloating.

Its a problem for you though.

How? Afghanistan has nothing to do with Israel.

Tikkun the olam

That's a diaspora thing.

and give them refuge.

Why should we? It's your mess to clean.

 

[Marduk]

I categorically reject your argument. The fact that matters sucked before America doesn't change the fact that they messed it up even more. An entire generation that grew up in what can be viewed as a westernized country will now have to contend with being ruled by savages just a step above ISIS, and with a nice arsenal of abandoned American weapons to boot.

How is it a worse mess? Pakistan's pet savages are in charge again. Same ones. Only now with ARs instead of AKs. Though a lot faithfully stick by AKs anyway.
If said young generation is so westernized and opposed to being ruled by savages, they should have taken up some of that arsenal and killed the Taliban.
Meanwhile, what young, "westernized" Afghan men of military age and training with plenty of weapons at hand do:

Video: Afghan soldiers flee near Iran border ahead of Taliban attack | Algulf

A video has emerged on social media in which a convoy of Afghan troops reportedly fled to Iran earlier in the week prior to a Taliban advance that overtook

algulf.net

Who knows, perhaps once the Taliban are out of loot to sell they will start screwing with Russia's nearby client states again and Putin will have to spend some effort killing them

 

[DarthOne]

 

[Arch Dornan]

How long before China decides it's time to invade Taiwan with a dementia addled president? It's not the first time when Obama let Ukraine lose the Crimea.

 

[49ersfootball]

This confirmed what I've been saying for months: Biden is the WORST President in America!!!!!