The War in Afghanistan

[Arch Dornan]

Will they or will they not?

 

[Marduk]

This is what it is really about:

Threat of narco-terrorism rise after Taliban takeover of Afghanistan

India has been facing the menace of narco-terrorism since several years now. This nexus between narcotics and terrorism has serious repercussions for India's security

www.business-standard.com

Entire illegal drug trade is controlled by the Taliban, who work in connivance with Pakistan intelligence agents, military officers and politicians. After the fall of Afghanistan's government this year and Taliban taking over Kabul, Indian security agencies have seized drugs being brought illegally from Afghanistan and Pakistan at the Indian ports and at borders. Illicit drug trade has increased with huge caches being smuggled inside the country.

The Taliban have, over the years, learned that money which they are desperately short on doesn't just grow out of the ground, but they are well set up to take advantage of the next best thing - opium.

‘Pakistan on frontlines of Afghan drug trade’ - Asian News from UK

Afghanistan is the world's largest opium producer, accounting for about 87 per cent of the global production and much of the Afghan opium is processed into heroin in labs in Pakistan before flooding the European market....reports Asian Lite News After the Taliban assumed power in Kabul, a fresh...

asianlite.com

Soon after coming to power on August 15, Taliban spokesman Zabiullah Mujahid had said that “Afghanistan will not be a country of cultivation of opium anymore. However, he added that “it is only possible when the whole world helps us in empowering the farmers and providing them with an alternative to earn their livelihood”, according to the report.

Taliban: We totally want to stop opium farming. But we won't until you give us as much money as we deem necessary to keep everyone happy.
Terrorists, terrorists never change.

Forty per cent of Afghan drug trafficking utilizes routes passing through Pakistan, the report read.

Stupid fence costing the local farmers real money right there, and in turn the cut Taliban get from them.

 

[History Learner]

Which is all fine and dandy, but still doesn't answer the question of who in fact does decide what the law is?

International Laws of War.

Which if you bothered to read the link would show you clearly that those aren't civilian deaths, but total deaths.

People = civilians + insurgents + service members. Is it that hard to do basic substraction?
Total civilians killed (as in including those killed by insurgents) are not even in hundreds of thousands.

I did read the links, that why I said 100,000 to 200,000 because of the varying estimates. The first one concerned estimates while the war was ongoing, the latter is more recent and puts civilian casualties into the six figure area.

And by your own links not much of that grand moralizing involving civilian deaths. Its more about Afghan government being shit, and being particularly shit in rural areas, which is not exactly a contestable claim. However, choices are choices, and now they are going to get a comparison for how shit Taliban governance is, with no alternative choice in sight.

Then, as usual, you didn't read them.

No, clearly can't be what i've described, as the biggest betrayals happened in 2021, and obviously couldn't have been retaliated for and written about before they happened.
But it does suggest one of major problems in the whole operation - the US government tolerated far too much dodgy behavior and general shittiness from Afghan officials, and had no arrangements to inflict adequate consequences on them for it.

What?

 

[Marduk]

International Laws of War.

So back to original about about WW1 and WW2, they were never applied this way. So its less "International Laws of War" and more "what i think International Laws of War should be written as/interpreted".

I did read the links, that why I said 100,000 to 200,000 because of the varying estimates. The first one concerned estimates while the war was ongoing, the latter is more recent and puts civilian casualties into the six figure area.

Look on top of their graph.
====>1989<===-2020
Yeah, blame America for that too .

Scott Simon talks with Azmat Khan of the New York Times about U.S. drone strikes that have killed civilians in Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan.

How is that even relevant? We were talking about what Afghans think about Afghanistan's politics, not what a biased journo from NPR who will obviously toe the leftist line on the matter thinks about US wars.

What?

Is it that hard to understand? How could America assassinate Afghan ex-officials that got bribed by Taliban in 2021 to great effect and have journos write articles about it in 2020?
What i meant is very simple. US government trusted the "Afghan allies" way more than they deserved, and inflicted little to no consequences on them the many times they have betrayed that trust (something the Taliban didn't tolerate on the other hand). Including the situations of dodgy intel from them prompting assassinations of wrong people.

 

[History Learner]

So back to original about about WW1 and WW2, they were never applied this way. So its less "International Laws of War" and more "what i think International Laws of War should be written as/interpreted".

No, and you know better too. The Laws of War are defined, your argument consists of a "might makes right" argument which does nothing to change the fact the Laws of War are unchanged.

Look on top of their graph.
====>1989<===-2020
Yeah, blame America for that too .

If you would actually bother to read a source for a change you would realize they are not citing any Soviet era casualties. All casualties, if you would read the paragraph literally right under the graph lol, are for when the Americans were in the war.

How is that even relevant? We were talking about what Afghans think about Afghanistan's politics, not what a biased journo from NPR who will obviously toe the leftist line on the matter thinks about US wars.

No. you specifically were stating there was no moralizing about the civilian casualties; I showed that was firmly the opposite, both domestically and in Afghanistan. And what, exactly, is this "Leftist line" on Afghanistan? Define that for me, with evidence.

Is it that hard to understand? How could America assassinate Afghan ex-officials that got bribed by Taliban in 2021 to great effect and have journos write articles about it in 2020?
What i meant is very simple. US government trusted the "Afghan allies" way more than they deserved, and inflicted little to no consequences on them the many times they have betrayed that trust (something the Taliban didn't tolerate on the other hand). Including the situations of dodgy intel from them prompting assassinations of wrong people.

Again, it's clear to me you haven't paid any attention to Afghanistan whatsoever outside of a select echo chamber. That CIA program started years ago and its fighters were among the last to surrender in 2021. Your argument literally makes no sense whatsoever in that context.

 

[Marduk]

No, and you know better too. The Laws of War are defined, your argument consists of a "might makes right" argument which does nothing to change the fact the Laws of War are unchanged.

So lemme repeat the original point again.
Laws of War are unchanged, yet no one was punished for all the World War era and some of the later carpet bombing campaigns, which had as much civilian casualties as carped bombing campaigns usually have.
Isn't it a perfectly rational conclusion then that according to the unchanged Laws of War, this is ok?

If you would actually bother to read a source for a change you would realize they are not citing any Soviet era casualties. All casualties, if you would read the paragraph literally right under the graph lol, are for when the Americans were in the war.

Funny enough, the graph is interactive. If you shift the date to 2001, it goes back into 212k, like the wiki estimate.
Which funny enough, is exactly the same number given in my quote from wikipedia, which refers to the same source - Uppsala Conflict Data Program.

During the War in Afghanistan, according to the Costs of War Project the war killed 176,000 people in Afghanistan; 46,319 civilians, 69,095 military and police and at least 52,893 opposition fighters. However, the death toll is possibly higher due to unaccounted deaths by "disease, loss of access to food, water, infrastructure, and/or other indirect consequences of the war."[1] According to the Uppsala Conflict Data Program, the conflict killed 212,191 people.[2]

Which in turn means you are trying to pull a fast one, and pass total deaths as civilian deaths, and then blame all the 212k deaths on western forces.
Because yes, that source does not do a breakdown into civilians/legal combatants/illegal combatants, it just counts all deaths.

No. you specifically were stating there was no moralizing about the civilian casualties; I showed that was firmly the opposite, both domestically and in Afghanistan.

No, we were discussing whether collateral damage was the main reason Afghan population sided with the Taliban as much as it did, which is not much, its was more ambivalent if anything.
You linked some sources, that did contain that, however mixed with a lot of complaining about all-around shittiness of Afghan government. Which, as such, is probably a bigger cause. And then you bring up an interview with opinions of some NPR journo as if that was relevant.

And what, exactly, is this "Leftist line" on Afghanistan? Define that for me, with evidence.

Whatever NPR, western branch of AJ or the Squad say about it.
Or in other words, lots of boilerplate anti-war sentiment and self-flagellation, unlimited budget aid advocacy and other ideas that such people apply to all conflicts USA was in after 1945.

Again, it's clear to me you haven't paid any attention to Afghanistan whatsoever outside of a select echo chamber. That CIA program started years ago and its fighters were among the last to surrender in 2021. Your argument literally makes no sense whatsoever in that context.

If my argument was not making sense then Mr. My Looted Money Can't Fit Into My Helicopter would be very, very dead by now. Probably in a showy and unpleasant way similar to how Russians handle such things, like polonium or nerve gas.

 

[Husky_Khan]

Initially the Ministry for the Propagation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice in Herat, the western city of Afghanistan, simply ordered mannequins taken down but shopkeepers protested that it would impact their sales too much. So now the Ministry is apparently willing to compromise, by stating the mannequins if they are too be displayed, must then be beheaded since they are sinful idols.

Taliban orders shop owners in Afghanistan to behead all mannequins

The worshipping of idols is considered a sin in Islam, which bans the worship of anyone or thing other than Allah.

nypost.com

Apparently even worse things maybe happening to Women that aren't mannequins yet.

The brutes had already reportedly burnt to death a woman after they said she served below-par cooking to its members.

And as the Taliban stormed across Afghanistan, it was reported their militants were already kidnapping children as young as 12.

A charity also recently issued an urgent warning as baby girls as young as 20-days-old are being offered up for marriage.

And rules brought in by the Taliban banning teen girls from attending school are only making the situation worse.

UNICEF executive director Henrietta Fore said: “Education is often the best protection against negative coping mechanisms such as child marriage and child labor.”

She added child marriage “can lead to a lifetime of suffering”.

Taliban fighters are also allegedly buying child brides and even babies to be raised and turned into sex slaves for as a little as $1,074.

 

[Chiron]

So essentially depending on region and which Taliban Governor is in control, results vary. Color me shocked that a decentralized insurgency with 40,000 light motorized Infantry as its core shock troops plus 100,000 local fighters who stayed in the local areas, and 100,000+ REMFs should be so patchy in governance.

Well 2 trillion dollars well spent either way. Of course 5 million into Mullah Omar's hands at the start for him to look the other way while a team did the deed would have saved so much grief.


🤷‍♂️

 

[WolfBear]

Initially the Ministry for the Propagation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice in Herat, the western city of Afghanistan, simply ordered mannequins taken down but shopkeepers protested that it would impact their sales too much. So now the Ministry is apparently willing to compromise, by stating the mannequins if they are too be displayed, must then be beheaded since they are sinful idols.

Taliban orders shop owners in Afghanistan to behead all mannequins

The worshipping of idols is considered a sin in Islam, which bans the worship of anyone or thing other than Allah.

nypost.com

Apparently even worse things maybe happening to Women that aren't mannequins yet.

Rural Pashtun culture at its finest!

Apparently an ancient Pashtun proverb is that a woman's place is either in the house or in the grave :

DownWithTyranny!: Ancient Pashtun Proverb: A Woman's Place Is In The Home-- Or In The Grave

downwithtyranny.blogspot.com

 

[Arch Dornan]

 

[Chiron]

A reminder that ISI has no real control over the Taliban, it was very much homegrown, its leadership and fighters largely stayed in Afghanistan and only a minority came from Pakistan.

Bette Dam blows the lid off the usual narratives you hear.

 

[TheRejectionist]

A reminder that ISI has no real control over the Taliban, it was very much homegrown, its leadership and fighters largely stayed in Afghanistan and only a minority came from Pakistan.

Bette Dam blows the lid off the usual narratives you hear.

Paki made the things easier for them though. But I imagine the Talibans are like : "Thanks for the help but we are not your bitch!"

 

[TheRejectionist]

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes ?

 

[Captain X]

Honestly we should have fucked Pakistan up, too.

 

[Marduk]

The more the Taliban need ISI favor, the more control ISI has over the Taliban.
Now that the Taliban no longer need to dodge drones and evade US forces in Afghanistan, their need for ISI favor has fallen to a level not seen since a long time, hence the relationship fallout.
However, as the border control takes hold, it is possible Pakistan will try to establish an economic leash over the Taliban now, who already have big money problems.
And they need to, because according to AJ at least, Pakistan has reasons to worry.

Pakistan’s Waziristan: Caught between ‘good’ and ‘bad’ Taliban

As Taliban controls neighbouring Afghanistan, Waziristan residents fear return to life under Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan.

www.aljazeera.com

“After the collapse of Kabul, they have gotten internal strength and confidence, and they have come onto the front foot,” says Mohsin Dawar, North Waziristan’s sole member of Pakistan’s lower house of parliament, who travels often to the district.


“They had quite a large presence before as well, and they were moving around as well, but it was done in a certain [hidden] way. Now they have become very visible again.”


Asked what kind of activities these armed actors engage in, Dawar is emphatic:


“Everything. There is extortion, taking money from contractors or anyone who has any business there. There are abductions as well [and] there are killings,” he says.

 

[TheRejectionist]

The more the Taliban need ISI favor, the more control ISI has over the Taliban.
Now that the Taliban no longer need to dodge drones and evade US forces in Afghanistan, their need for ISI favor has fallen to a level not seen since a long time, hence the relationship fallout.
However, as the border control takes hold, it is possible Pakistan will try to establish an economic leash over the Taliban now, who already have big money problems.
And they need to, because according to AJ at least, Pakistan has reasons to worry.

Pakistan’s Waziristan: Caught between ‘good’ and ‘bad’ Taliban

As Taliban controls neighbouring Afghanistan, Waziristan residents fear return to life under Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan.

www.aljazeera.com

Honestly we should have fucked Pakistan up, too.

Considering the parasitic influence of Pakistan I Wish It the worst and to rot.

 

[TheRejectionist]

Funny thing Is that they dont recognize the Durand line...so fun times ahead.

 

[WolfBear]

Touching story from Afghanistan related to the evacuation there:

Baby lost in chaos of Afghanistan airlift is found and returned to family | CNN

An infant boy handed in desperation to a soldier across an airport wall in the chaos of the American evacuation of Afghanistan has been found and was reunited with his relatives in Kabul on Saturday.

www.cnn.com

I do hope that they do a DNA test on this baby to make sure that it's really their baby, though.

 

[Chiron]

Honestly we should have fucked Pakistan up, too.

They had nukes, were willing to pretend to fellate the US MIC, while India has standards and refused to fellate the US MIC hence we didn't work with India.

Frankly so long as you make a show of fellating the US MIC, you can get away with a lot of shit.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

They had nukes, were willing to pretend to fellate the US MIC, while India has standards and refused to fellate the US MIC hence we didn't work with India.

Frankly so long as you make a show of fellating the US MIC, you can get away with a lot of shit.

What is the US MIC?