The Role of Ground Forces in Interstellar Warfare

[Scooby Doo]

One of the plus sides of Warhammer 40K is that it does sometimes try to feature the scale of galactic wide conflict. Isaac Arthur, the YouTuber mentioned in the starting OP, actually commented on that concept in one of his videos IIRC.

Yeh but then they have like two hundred stories of one hundred or thousand Spacemarines making a difference on a global campaign which gives me a headache everytime I see such stupidity.


They're not even used like Commando's they're straight up deployed head on running across trenches into melee range.

 

[Husky_Khan]

Yeh but then they have like two hundred stories of one hundred or thousand Spacemarines making a difference on a global campaign which gives me a headache everytime I see such stupidity.


They're not even used like Commando's they're straight up deployed head on running across trenches into melee range.

What is the ballpark ratio of Space Marine to Angry Futuristic Wastelanders that needs conquering?

 

[Scooby Doo]

What is the ballpark ratio of Space Marine to Angry Futuristic Wastelanders that needs conquering?

Apparently 100 Marines can take over 21st century equivalent Modern Earth according to lore.


So 0.5 for a Fallout type verse if we're dick riding the nonsensical unexplained very likely in universe propaganda statement.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

In the case of Star Wars, it really does depend. A lot of the battles are being fought on sparsely populated worlds of the Outer and Mid Rim, so behemoth 40k sized armies aren't quite necessary.

 

[Scooby Doo]

In the case of Star Wars, it really does depend. A lot of the battles are being fought on sparsely populated worlds of the Outer and Mid Rim, so behemoth 40k sized armies aren't quite necessary.

Then it makes you wonder, why the hell bother fighting for these sparely populated areas lmao 😂


I remember one episode where the Separatists invaded a planet that had stone age technology (literal stone huts)...for reasons (didn't even mine it) and the Republic fought over like three major cities.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

Then it makes you wonder, why the hell bother fighting for these sparely populated areas lmao 😂


I remember one episode where the Separatists invaded a planet that had stone age technology (literal stone huts)...for reasons (didn't even mine it) and the Republic fought over like three major cities.

Most likely key hyperspace routes.

That aside, also probably grand military strategy not being Lucasfilm's strongsuit.

 

[Scooby Doo]

Most likely key hyperspace routes.

That aside, also probably grand military strategy not being Lucasfilm's strongsuit.

But if it's a key Hyperspace route there's no need for the planet or ground combat just put a station in the sky lol.

Some people in stone huts ain't gonna do shit 😂

 

[Vyor]

Another issue is that if you're attacking an enemy planet, it's largely because you want what that planet has reasonably intact. Which is another factor cutting against the "nuke 'em till they glow" line of thought, because all the infrastructure and resources you destroy by glassing a planet are infrastructure and resources you don't get access to.

To add to this: ground to orbit weapons don't have a yield limit. While orbit to ground weapons would have a yeild limit simply because you don't want to glass the planet(and if you do want to glass it just tow a fucking space rock into it, much cheaper and would take a lot less time while being harder to stop).

A lot of ground combat in sci-fi is kinda unrealistic because you'd need hundreds of millions minimum to garrison a force and routine reinforcements due to insurgency and rebellion unless you know you do genocide.


40k and Star Wars is like here's a thousand or a million guys go get em kiddo and that's it.

A couple thousand people could be enough to hold a planet when combined with a carefully curated police force.

Once you control the world, you don't have a primarily resistant government fighting you: are are that world's government. You control the police forces, which is one of the obstacles of taking a place to begin with(local and organized resistance) which means your dedicated soldier requirements go way, way the fuck down. Instead you replace the old police force with a new one made out of people that are sympathetic to your cause or empire from the existing civilian populace.

The 1k-10k actual soldiers you have on world would be there as a fast reaction force to any full scale rebellion, the smaller insurgency level stuff can be handled by your new police forces.

This has been how you successfully conquer and occupy a city or country for the last 8 thousand years; I don't see why it would change because it's now a planet instead.

Then it makes you wonder, why the hell bother fighting for these sparely populated areas lmao 😂


I remember one episode where the Separatists invaded a planet that had stone age technology (literal stone huts)...for reasons (didn't even mine it) and the Republic fought over like three major cities.

That was to capture slaves and sell them for the big bucks.

 

[Allanon]

Well, even the Galactic Empire had a limit on manpower and resources. If forces are directed to a particular planet that means resources must be diverted from somewhere else. It's not just military forces- everything from technicians, mechanics, etc. must be present because enslaved beings may not have the technical skills and would you want vital equipment and technology in such hands?

 

[Crom's Black Blade]

Yeh but then they have like two hundred stories of one hundred or thousand Spacemarines making a difference on a global campaign which gives me a headache everytime I see such stupidity.


They're not even used like Commando's they're straight up deployed head on running across trenches into melee range.

Honestly the Guard aren't much better in scale most of the time. They're just as often absurdly small with just a few regiments being dispatched to the world in question as they are some massive force with millions or billions.

As for the wider question of infantry in the age of space warfare, while I do think they would still serve a purpose most Sci-fi armies like the Imperial Guard or the CIS's Droid Army seem to mirror and be based more on 20th century armies and the particular assumptions that don't really make much sense in an environment where you control the ultimate high ground.

To my way of thinking you'd wouldn't want an army designed for massive, panzer thrusts through the enemy's heart because you'd almost never get the chance to exploit that ability. Long before your enemy would use precision attacks to destroy your fuel depots, infrastructure network, communication hubs ect crippling your mechanized armies ability to even function before dropping like a sledgehammer shocktroops on key segments and positions he wants to destroy, capture or destabilize.

Even before we start talking about nuking things till they glow, I'd imagine a scif-fi army's role in planetary defense would primarily be irregular and commando warfare with garrison and fortification as secondary. With a greater emphasis on light infantry that can operate behind enemy lines with much lighter supply lines.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

They're just as often absurdly small with just a few regiments being dispatched to the world in question as they are some massive force with millions or billions.

Erm...Imperial Guard regiments aren't exactly small formations of soldiers...and there's a thousand other fronts that need constant supplies of manpower.

 

[Bear Ribs]

Erm...Imperial Guard regiments aren't exactly small formations of soldiers...and there's a thousand other fronts that need constant supplies of manpower.

Part of the issue there is that the Imperium acts like it has infinite manpower and will gleefully toss guys in the meatgrinder for little to no gain. They'll blow millions of lives dying in the jungle to get a few battalions of Catachan Jungle Fighters each year, rather than acting efficiently to maintain a much larger amount of manpower. They have untold trillions of people in the underhives with no job, no prospects, grinding poverty, nothing to contribute, and a tendency to turn to chaos because they feel the Imperium has abandoned them. If the Imperium was really stretched so thin it seems like somebody might decide to gather up a few trillion of those guys and put them through a few months of basic training before handing them a rifle, rather than letting them continue to rot and fester.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

If the Imperium was really stretched so thin it seems like somebody might decide to gather up a few trillion of those guys and put them through a few months of basic training before handing them a rifle, rather than letting them continue to rot and fester.

The IoM does that all the time. They're the conscripts and penal legions that are sent into the meat grinder to die. You rarely hear stories about them except to say that they redeemed their previously worthless lives by dieing for the Emperor.

 

[Scooby Doo]

The most hilarious thing about this discussion is that while the Imperium fights faaaaar more dangerous threats the Federation from Star Ship Troopers has a fat better and well organized army including logistics and all.

They can round up on REALLY short notice a couple million troops for the Kleandathu campaign and send them half way across the galaxy then recover losing a good chunk of their fleet (Something only 600 survived).


The Federation is pretty tyrannical too but their propaganda and administrative people have very few criminals, maybe the Imperium could take a note or two.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

The Federation doesn’t have to use the Warp for space travel.

The Imperium does.

 

[Scooby Doo]

The Federation doesn’t have to use the Warp for space travel.

The Imperium does.

Tbf Warp is still faster than Federation FTL by far.


Feds only do 12 light years a day.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

Tbf Warp is still faster than Federation FTL by far.


Feds only do 12 light years a day.

If, Emperor willing, the dice come up right, the Warp can be reasonably fast.

But...those dice don't often come up right. Ships can end up centuries overdue, if they arrive at all.

 

[Marduk]

If, Emperor willing, the dice come up right, the Warp can be reasonably fast.

But...those dice don't often come up right. Ships can end up centuries overdue, if they arrive at all.

The RT figures, consistent in this regard with many other sources give several years on average to cross the whole damn galaxy.
With a caveat that a particularly talented and well equipped navigator can make the journey considerably quicker, down to about a year (though that's something only the likes of Astartes, Lord Inquisitors and well off Rogue Traders may pull off), and depending on warp events and lanes used, some legs of the journey will be much faster than others.
We're talking about 100k lightyears for the galaxy technically, or about 75k for Imperium itself, skipping the fringes. Even in the latter case, we're talking about averaging about 10-15k in a year, or 30-45 LY per day.

 

[Bear Ribs]

The IoM does that all the time. They're the conscripts and penal legions that are sent into the meat grinder to die. You rarely hear stories about them except to say that they redeemed their previously worthless lives by dieing for the Emperor.

I'm aware, the problem is you can't square that reasonably with them also being desperately short of manpower. As I said above, the Imperium says they're short of manpower but acts like lives are cheap and disposable.

Tbf Warp is still faster than Federation FTL by far.


Feds only do 12 light years a day.

I don't think Starship Troopers ever really gives us any concrete numbers for speed. What are you basing this on?

 

[Marduk]

I'm aware, the problem is you can't square that reasonably with them also being desperately short of manpower. As I said above, the Imperium says they're short of manpower but acts like lives are cheap and disposable.

Where does it say that? The Imperium is far more short on advanced gear for the manpower than the manpower itself.