The Potterverse vs. the MiB

[mrttao]

It's really not the case. Most of the 'wizards are idiots' complaints seem to be from the assumption that technology is somehow better

I have never seen a "wizards are idiots" complaints about harry potter ever that had to do with that assumption.

Wizards ARE idiots. This comes entirely 100% from reading the harry potter books and has nothing to do with any assumptions.
They have zero concepts of safety, or security, or logic.
And they vastly under utilize their own magical power.

They give time machines to 11 year old kids without any adult supervision on its use.
and the time machine is made entirely of fragile glass and yet does not even come in a carrying case for when it is not being used.

children can break into their government with a simple potion, even though they have countermeasures that should have caught it (a simple sneakoscope should have caught a polyjuiced infiltrator).

They are amused by a sport whose rules are utterly idiotic (get rid of the seeker, that position is retarded). They think giving a hostile foreign nation complete control over their economy is a good idea (goblin nation) despite it having failed spectacularly multiple times in the past (the multiple goblin rebellions) they keep on doing it.

Their govt are literally comedically inept. And so are their terrorists.
Their greatest school ever is pretty darn stupid too.
Wizards are comically inept and it has nothing to do with "you just like tech better"

Oh also their education... math is an optional elective (arithmancy) that most don't even bother taking, they have no basic education, start their education at 11, and the only thing they learn is magic.
They have a history class, but for hundreds of years it has been taught by a ghost who only teaches the goblin rebellions and nothing else (and yet they STILL trust goblins with total money control despite that)

 

[Spartan303]

Oh, this is a good one. I like this idea. But I think the MIB might take it due to being on a whole, full of very bright and competent people with some very exotic hardware. Wizards...tend not to be outside of a few main hero characters. But they're heroes for a reason as they tend to be very competent.

So, yes, I say the MIB.

 

[Rhyse]

I have never seen a "wizards are idiots" complaints about harry potter ever that had to do with that assumption.
Wizards ARE idiots. This comes entirely 100% from reading the harry potter books and has nothing to do with any assumptions.

You clearly haven't read the books, so no.

They have zero concepts of safety, or security, or logic.

Such as?

And they vastly under utilize their own magical power.

How? You literally cannot know that they 'underutilize it' because you have no idea of the limitations of it.

They give time machines to 11 year old kids without any adult supervision on its use.
and the time machine is made entirely of fragile glass and yet does not even come in a carrying case for when it is not being used.

McGonagoll was supervising it's use, that's what Hermione went off to see her about at the start of PoA. The time travel they gave her isn't capable of causing problems as it works on a closed loop system, not a freeform system, so it's relatively safe to use for 'inconsequential things'. The Time Turner isn't 'made of glass' it's an hour reversal charm stored in glass, which - considering the fact that Herimione falls over, is thwacked by the whomping willow, and in general is physically knocked around - likely has a very common 'unbreakable charm' on it to prevent it from being damaged.

The Cursed Child - blech - which Rowling has said is effectively second canon also implies that Hermione got a gimped shitty version of a Time Turner, because the Time Turner they used there can be used to create true alternative timelines. (One of them in which Voldemort wins is just 'Hitler, but bald', with Death camps, and all that jazz.). But I'm about a million times more than okay with disregarding that crock of shit.

children can break into their government with a simple potion, even though they have countermeasures that should have caught it (a simple sneakoscope should have caught a polyjuiced infiltrator).

A sneakoscope lights up and whistles whenever anyone nearby is doing something untrustworthy. You want to put that in a government building? Why would an alarm that goes off 24/7 be at all useful? A Foe-glass would be slightly better, but not by much as that just shows you if someone who dislikes you is in proximity. They could track wands, but Harry swapped his out, and Hermione/Rons had already had their trackers broken, they could by keycards, but Harry, Ron and Hermione ambushed three low level employees; and took their magical tokens that let them get in. The only thing we've ever seen defeat polyjuice potion - a high level, extremely delicate brew, that needs expensive reagents, a full month of constant attention, and your victim already immobile - is a piece of Goblin magic called Thieves downfall, and IIRC snape directly blasting someone in the face with magic. You can't assault your public workers, they're just not going to turn up for work if you do that.

Above all that, there's the issue that the Ministry is a public building. The offices are guarded, the entrance and general paperwork areas - of which we see, the public courtrooms, the police department, including general administration, and improper use of magic - you are seemingly free to move about, if you have a token that you work there and you are disguised as the person who is supposed to be there. What sort of realistic counter to that would you suggest?

If you mean the Order of the Phoenix, then sure; it was easy since Voldemorts people had already prepped the way for them as an ambush.

They are amused by a sport whose rules are utterly idiotic (get rid of the seeker, that position is retarded).

This is entirely cultural, Americans like Football, football is retarded and idiotic, people get brain damage from football. The rules of Basketball are retarded, the hoop is too high. You have to use a horse to play Polo, that is retarded. TikTok exists. Gangnam style peaked at number two in the entire world in 2012. In terms of 'retarded culture', we've got wizards beat for sheer mass of it, by far.

They think giving a hostile foreign nation complete control over their economy is a good idea (goblin nation) despite it having failed spectacularly multiple times in the past (the multiple goblin rebellions) they keep on doing it.

Goblins aren't a hostile foreign nation. Goblins aren't even a nation. Goblins are a minority peoples in the wizarding world. The times that they have 'rebelled' have been as a direct response to wizards murdering them, wizards literally oppressing them, and wizards keeping them as slaves. The rebellions as described seem to be small scale, enough so that they are actually just riots. Since the 'biggest' consisted of them taking over a small village and using it's Inn as their HQ. (Though I assume the upcoming game will change that.)

I mean, you can also look at the real world as well. Goblins caused a ruckus and were seen as second class people during their rebellions of the 16th and 17th centuries. But they occupy the position of importance right now.

This is Clarence Brown. Below, is what the law says about people like Clarence Brown during the same time as the Goblin rebellion.

Clarence Brown is one of the highest points of authority in America right now. Jews throughout Europe were expelled, demonised and exterminated for the past five hundred years, now they're largely upper middle class/elites in western society. You're thinking of Goblins as being something alien, because to you, they are alien; to the average wizard Goblins are a fact of life. No different to a black person, or a chinese person. What would you suggest? They toss out the Goblins, seize their assets, round them up and ship them off to some smoke belching magical death camp?

Their govt are literally comedically inept. And so are their terrorists.

I would like you devise a way of stopping people who can teleport, cast a undetectable spell that controls peoples minds, have large scale popular support among your rich upper classes; along with large scale popular support among the lower classes. And you can't kill him. because he comes back if you do that. You also cannot use those same spells on people.

The other side has magic as well; and a willingness to use the really messed up stuff that damages your soul, and large amounts of money.

if you're talking general day to day activities. The ministry operates a surveillance network of problem individuals so pervasive that when one of them committed a crime, five minutes after he got home, he received a summons from the government to come and stand trial. The first escapee from Azkaban had to spend his entire life underneath and invisibility cloak, minded by a house elf because otherwise he'd have been found out. In order to run the world cup, they created a stadium large enough and tall enough to fit ten cathedrals end to end; and nobody saw a dammed thing. In one experiment, this happened:

What is more, her five days in the distant past caused great disturbance to the life paths of all those she met, changing the course of their lives so dramatically that no fewer than twenty-five of their descendants vanished in the present, having been “un-born”.
‘Finally, there were alarming signs, during the days following Madam Mintumble’s recovery, that time itself had been disturbed by such a serious breach of its laws. Tuesday following her reappearance lasted two and a half full days, whereas Thursday shot by in the space of four hours. The Ministry of Magic had a great deal of trouble in covering this up and since that time, the most stringent laws and penalties have been placed around those studying time travel.’

Time-Turner | Wizarding World

In spite of the many Muggle fantasies around the subject, time travel is possible in only a limited sense even in the magical world. While the subject is shrouded in great secrecy – investigations are ongoing in the Department of Mysteries – it appears that magic can take you only so far.

www.wizardingworld.com

Which they then managed to cover up. A giant destroyed an entire town in the UK; wizards altered the news and reporting so it was told to the public as a 'freak tornado'. A wizard casually walked in, and assimilated himself into the cabinet of the Prime Minister for months, without the Prime Minister or anyone else realizing it, a member of that same cabinet was then quietly removed to their magical hospital to fix a curse, and again, no one realised. Pettigrew flattened an entire street: Gas main went off. A dragon attacked a town: No one remembers seeing a dammed thing. Until 1689 wizards and witches were fully integrated in the wider world, and were commonly known about. They had departments that liased with the muggle kings and queens, laws regarding each other. Once it was signed, they managed to convince us they didn't exist. Despite a Malfoy nearly becoming King of England at one point.

That's insane. That's like...well, that's like wizards running around and being a fact of life until 400 years ago, we have food recipes on record from the Greek era, plays from before that, records that stretch to some of the earliest civilizations. When Wizards segregated themselves from us, the East India company was a growing power, we had firearms, the earliest threads of industrialization were being thought up. This wasn't ancient history, the Bill of Rights was written when it was signed. Two thousand years of history had to be effectively edited to make this work, tens of thousands of people had to have their minds altered. The sheer scale of the act is fucking terrifying.

The wizarding government is disgustingly corrupt, and in bed with their upper class money powers; but they don't seem particularly inept. It's just really dammed hard to fight back against people that can arrive without warning, completely suborn your will; and send you off without anyone being the wiser.

Oh also their education... math is an optional elective (arithmancy) that most don't even bother taking, they have no basic education, start their education at 11, and the only thing they learn is magic.

Arithmancy is not mathematics, it's a way of predicting the future due to the magical nature of numbers and numberology. They start their education like all British Schoolchildren at age 6, either through home tutors or at a primary school if muggleborn.

Regarding the teaching of more advanced (GCSE and A-level) Maths, why would they bother? The majority of the principles that maths is needed to understand, don't apply to magic. Anything more advanced than basic Algebra, some geometry and counting is completely superfluous for the average wizard, and largely superfluous to the people that are making things that may actually require an advanced understanding of physics/mathematics. An engineer needs to know Maths because if he doesn't, then whatever he's making won't work. Arthur Weasley created a sentient, flying, invisible car as a side hobby whilst having no clue - we assume - about anything more advanced than year 6 mathematics. Don't get me wrong. I think they should probably learn more maths. But for their day to day life, magic is the more useful skill.

It also has the neat effect of preventing Muggleborns from working muggle jobs, and keeps them inside the wizarding world. Probably not intentional on Rowlings part, but definitely creepy none the less.

They have a history class, but for hundreds of years it has been taught by a ghost who only teaches the goblin rebellions and nothing else (and yet they STILL trust goblins with total money control despite that)

This is what Binns teaches.
1st year
Werewolf Code of Conduct
Soap Blizzard of 1378
The Gargoyle Strike of 1911

2nd Year
Medieval Assembly of Wizards.
International Warlock Convention.

3rd Year
Witch Hunts

4th Year
Goblin Rebellions.

5th year
Werewolf code of conduct (Again, weirdly)
Dissolving of the Wizards Council.
14th Century Wizarding Economic Bubble.
etc, and so on until 7th year. I also left out some of the stuff I couldn't click source to from the wiki.

The whole Goblin Rebellions thing was literally the subject major of one year. I'm not sure what you'd like doing with Binns either? If you fire him, he ceases to exist. That's kinda close to murder to cavalier with the idea of getting rid of the man; wizards say that ghosts are just 'imprints' of people, but an 'imprint' in the paintings beg not to be killed sometimes, so I'd be cautious about randomly getting rid of ghosts.

Have you just read fanfiction? Because that's what it feels like. The wizarding world as presented in the books and expanded materials is this horrible mix of 1984, Brave New World and a weird communist dystopia. No one really seems to work for food, they work for clout or influence. Even the poorest family - Weasleys - are fully self sustaining. At the drop of a hat you can be named a criminal and whisked away in the night, tried in absentia at random (As what nearly happened to Harry), and then sentenced to a stone hole in the ground forever. You could lose all control over your life, without a way of escaping because someone sprayed you with a perfume bottle (Love potions are contact based, not just drinkable) or decided to Imperius you. The only way Harry and his friends got through Voldemorts reign, was moving every day, living in the woods like animals, sleeping in their expanded tents and eating scrounged food. Even then they eventually got caught because one of them said a word that had been cursed to instantly pin point your location - Breaking their magical defences at the time as well - to the secret police.

Rowling tried to make a pretty, fantastical world, and what she instead made is a nightmare.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

I think it's less of a case of "Wizards are stupid" and more of "The wizarding culture in Europe is so stagnant it's a wonder it can still function." In nearly every major war when one side developed a weapon the other side would learn how to counteract it PERCISELY so they couldn't be held by the gonads. One would think that if Dark wizards have learned spells and potions that could wipe people's memory or allow said dark wizard to take someone's body out for a joyride, teleport them out of high security buildings, and jinx a name to where works like a GPS, you'd have an entire department of witches and wizard dedicated to learning to counteract said magic Like I don't know A MILITARY department. but no, they just cower in fear, preform muggle placebo rituals like good luck charms, and pray that a dark force or creature doesn't try to snatch them up in the night. For as much as JK Rowling tried to haphazardly insert industrial age tech where it suited her, the wizarding world itself still lives in the medieval ages, and it REALLY shows especially in the later books.

in all truthfulness the book series really needed to end with a foreboding sense that a 60s-80s hybrid style cultural revolution was coming and the european wizarding world would never be the same as Voldemort was essentially all of European Wizarding World's Stagnation and dystopian aspects given form and all the ugliness that went with it and his death in a way signifying the death of the old ways. Even if you took muggle tech out of the equation (Which I argue you can't) The wizarding culture in Europe was dying to the point where the ruling class had to resort to inbreeding to the point of incest just to retain a sense of tradition and normalcy and even then they were quickly fading into irrevlancy as muggle-magical unions were well the norm at that point. which was why they joined Voldemort in the first place. Isolationism wasn't going to work for much longer as the world outside had already well passed them by. Time marched forward. The wizarding world didn't.

at least that's how I see it. I think JK had an aesthetic in mind when she wrote the first three books but really didn't know how to world build beyond that.

 

[Rhyse]

I think it's less of a case of "Wizards are stupid" and more of "The wizarding culture in Europe is so stagnant it's a wonder it can still function."

Except that's complete and total bollocks.

In nearly every major war when one side developed a weapon the other side would learn how to counteract it PERCISELY so they couldn't be held by the gonads. One would think that if Dark wizards have learned spells and potions that could wipe people's memory or allow said dark wizard to take someone's body out for a joyride, teleport them out of high security buildings, and jinx a name to where works like a GPS, you'd have an entire department of witches and wizard dedicated to learning to counteract said magic Like I don't know A MILITARY department.

They do, they have the DMLE, and the Department of Mysteries that study the mind, time, space, love and death as the 'final frontiers' of magic.

Why are you assuming that they somehow don't? Why is the assumption 'They are retarded because they didn't figure out how to beat the GG you lose spells' rather than 'Man, those spells are pretty powerful, hard to counter that shit.'. The Trace, the Taboo spells, and a dozen others - notably obliviate - are ministry spells. The problem, is that it's a bloody civil war; both sides have the spells, both sies have the magic, both sides are inside each others walls. Anything the ministry invents will get out to the Death Eaters.

but no, they just cower in fear, preform muggle placebo rituals like good luck charms,
and pray that a dark force or creature doesn't try to snatch them up in the night. For as much as JK Rowling tried to haphazardly insert industrial age tech where it suited her, the wizarding world itself still lives in the medieval ages, and it REALLY shows especially in the later books.

They actually live with Muggles for the most part, in Muggle communities, interacting with muggles. They just don't use muggle technology because it's less useful than magic. Security spells are a thing, magical defences are a thing, and they get invented all the dammed time. Voldemort made some, Hermione made some, Luna's mother made some, The Weasleys made some. There is an anti-teleport charm you can cast. It's a blanket 'fuck you and everyone around you' spell that means no on gets to leave, making it pointless unless you're the attacker. Also, luck is an actual thing in Harry Potter, it's a force that exists in the world which can change things. Good luck charms work.

In terms of 'medieval culture' how? Is it because they dress funny? Or because they use candles? We use bits of electrified metal for light, and we run water over our clothes to wash them. They clap their hands and the dirt is literally erased from existence, flick a wrist and the entire house is lit up. We burn oil to get around, they teleport. We don't even know what happens after you die, or if the soul is real. The sum total genius of the human computing world can create an 'AI' that's okay at chess, and gets turned into a Nazi by 4chan. If you want a wizarding AI, go to a painter and he'll make a fork of your personality for you to chat with. Or just learn how to enchant a statue to have a chat with. Wizards like Kingsley could blend into muggle culture well enough to work at the Prime Ministers Office and was considered one of the top employees doing so.

It's like looking at our world, and going 'Tut, tut, we've had rockets since the Ming Dynasty, why aren't we at Proxima Centauri already' or 'Fat people exist? How terrible, what a backwards culture, don't they know it's bad for them?' or even just 'Crime? How can that exist when you can buy a gun!'.

in all truthfulness the book series really needed to end with a foreboding sense that a 60s-80s hybrid style cultural revolution was coming and the european wizarding world would never be the same as Voldemort was essentially all of European Wizarding World's Stagnation and dystopian aspects given form and all the ugliness that went with it and his death in a way signifying the death of the old ways. Even if you took muggle tech out of the equation (Which I argue you can't) The wizarding culture in Europe was dying to the point where the ruling class had to resort to inbreeding to the point of incest just to retain a sense of tradition and normalcy and even then they were quickly fading into irrevlancy as muggle-magical unions were well the norm at that point. which was why they joined Voldemort in the first place. Isolationism wasn't going to work for much longer as the world outside had already well passed them by. Time marched forward. The wizarding world didn't.

Wizards were perfectly fine with muggle tech, wizards were perfectly fine with Muggle culture. They don't really have a 'culture' of their own beyond it being essentially a regional thing, like being Norf, or from Yorkshire. The wizarding version of the KKK were dying out; but 'purebloods' in general were only 10% of the wizarding population. Isolation worked perfectly fine, because the end of the series is set in 2020 with the statute still standing strong. Wizards in Harry Potter are essentially an advanced race of aliens stranded on Earth for all intents and purposes, isolationism would work just fine for them, and would continue to work fine for them for essentially ever. The statute of secrecy is a dogshit law that keeps humanity in general down though.

at least that's how I see it. I think JK had an aesthetic in mind when she wrote the first three books but really didn't know how to world build beyond that.

Rowling really liked 'The Worst Witch' series; boarding schools and the bleak hopelessness of the 1970's Britain. Strange combo. She also clearly thought very little through.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

Except that's complete and total bollocks.

They do, they have the DMLE, and the Department of Mysteries that study the mind, time, space, love and death as the 'final frontiers' of magic.

Why are you assuming that they somehow don't? Why is the assumption 'They are retarded because they didn't figure out how to beat the GG you lose spells' rather than 'Man, those spells are pretty powerful, hard to counter that shit.'. The Trace, the Taboo spells, and a dozen others - notably obliviate - are ministry spells. The problem, is that it's a bloody civil war; both sides have the spells, both sies have the magic, both sides are inside each others walls. Anything the ministry invents will get out to the Death Eaters.

They actually live with Muggles for the most part, in Muggle communities, interacting with muggles. They just don't use muggle technology because it's less useful than magic. Security spells are a thing, magical defences are a thing, and they get invented all the dammed time. Voldemort made some, Hermione made some, Luna's mother made some, The Weasleys made some. There is an anti-teleport charm you can cast. It's a blanket 'fuck you and everyone around you' spell that means no on gets to leave, making it pointless unless you're the attacker. Also, luck is an actual thing in Harry Potter, it's a force that exists in the world which can change things. Good luck charms work.

In terms of 'medieval culture' how? Is it because they dress funny? Or because they use candles? We use bits of electrified metal for light, and we run water over our clothes to wash them. They clap their hands and the dirt is literally erased from existence, flick a wrist and the entire house is lit up. We burn oil to get around, they teleport. We don't even know what happens after you die, or if the soul is real. The sum total genius of the human computing world can create an 'AI' that's okay at chess, and gets turned into a Nazi by 4chan. If you want a wizarding AI, go to a painter and he'll make a fork of your personality for you to chat with. Or just learn how to enchant a statue to have a chat with. Wizards like Kingsley could blend into muggle culture well enough to work at the Prime Ministers Office and was considered one of the top employees doing so.

It's like looking at our world, and going 'Tut, tut, we've had rockets since the Ming Dynasty, why aren't we at Proxima Centauri already' or 'Fat people exist? How terrible, what a backwards culture, don't they know it's bad for them?' or even just 'Crime? How can that exist when you can buy a gun!'.


Wizards were perfectly fine with muggle tech, wizards were perfectly fine with Muggle culture. They don't really have a 'culture' of their own beyond it being essentially a regional thing, like being Norf, or from Yorkshire. The wizarding version of the KKK were dying out; but 'purebloods' in general were only 10% of the wizarding population. Isolation worked perfectly fine, because the end of the series is set in 2020 with the statute still standing strong. Wizards in Harry Potter are essentially an advanced race of aliens stranded on Earth for all intents and purposes, isolationism would work just fine for them, and would continue to work fine for them for essentially ever. The statute of secrecy is a dogshit law that keeps humanity in general down though.


Rowling really liked 'The Worst Witch' series; boarding schools and the bleak hopelessness of the 1970's Britain. Strange combo. She also clearly thought very little through.

I look to none other than Arthur Weasley. the guy is supposed to be the every wizard basically the standard of what the average wizard is supposed to be like has high influence in the government and yet this is his reaction to an entire world outside his window.



he literally gives the same reaction to the muggle world that a blue state city slicker gives when he or she finds out that real trees exist or milk comes from cows and other mammals, or how any generation that isn't Gen X seems to react to technology. It may be a thing in our world but that doesn't change the fact that such a high level of ignorance can be unhealthy and yet his ignorance is treated as the norm among wizards or at the very least isn't shown as a simple case of "A parent that doesn't understand the world his kids partake in.

Any many people do point out how stupid and stagnate the real-world culture is sometimes, take nuclear power, if we took the time to utilize it and diversify it there is no telling what kind of new innovations we can come up with but Ruiling bodies don't want to change things that work because it isn't profitable for them personally and the average joe looks at it like a boogieman. I'm nearly in my 30s and I've been shouting into the void since high school about how we seriously need to look at nuclear power. I wrote an essay and did a mock presidential speech about it.

Heck we just had a government official in response to an artificial energy shortage say, "Go buy and electric car." Yes stupid exist in the real world. That doesn't make it less stupid or dangerous.

as far as isolationism goes, Let me put it this way. There has never been a time in recorded history where isolationism has worked continuously in an ongoing manner. At best it is eventually broken and most of the time it comes across in spirts. Saying an advanced alien race can do it is more a constancy of faith. Well, you've not seen them therefore isolationism is working. it maybe true but that can be said about anything that can't be seen. It works a certain way because the believer says it works that way or in the case of a written work the author says it works that way. JK Rowling was able to handwave it all away by essentially using Voldemort as a Satan stand in while ignoring the influences that made him Voldemort (and yet for some reason tried making Snape Sympathetic by blaming his influences for why he was a bad guy but not really a bad guy.)

I will give you the fact that the Ministry of magic was in a civil war and I did not know that the DMLE exist. I don't remember them being in any of the books.

 

[Rhyse]

I look to none other than Arthur Weasley. the guy is supposed to be the every wizard basically the standard of what the average wizard is supposed to be like has high influence in the government and yet this is his reaction to an entire world outside his window. The video is titled "



he literally gives the same reaction to the muggle world that a blue state city slicker gives when he or she finds out that real trees exist or milk comes from cows and other mammals, or how any generation that isn't Gen X seems to react to technology. It may be a thing in our world but that doesn't change the fact that such a high level of ignorance is dangerous and yet his ignorance is treated as the norm among wizards or at the very least isn't shown as a simple case of "A parent that doesn't understand the world his kids partake in.

Arthurs job at the start of the series is a beat cop enforcer that exclusively deals with cursed magical artifacts that have been given to muggles. He has absolutely zero influence in the Ministry. It's only after the fifth book where he gets nepotistically (Wizarding government be corrupt.) boosted up to a newly made department dealing with no warrant, no knock raids on the political enemies of the ministry.

The examples he gave in the video of him being 'dangerously ignorant' are him going 'The fuck is a rubber duck'. 'Oh, Muggles got moving stairs, cool', and not understanding how the oyster card system works. Then he correctly quotes a muggle idiom at the end. In order: We only really know what a rubber duck is because of our TV and culture. Without the TV, and without going to muggle shops why would he know what the point of it is? It's synonymous with bathing in western culture, because TV tells us it is. Escalators are neat, but the man doesn't go to muggle shopping centres because he doesn't need to, so where would he have seen them before? He then looks at a cyclist, but wizards have cycles; and the man also owns a functional car. I would point out that Arthur is probably not the norm since he's the only character that is ever seen doing this at any point. And as a counter point:

‘Well, we’re not,’ Scrimgeour cut in. ‘It’ll be a poor lookout for the Muggles if their Prime Minister gets put under the Imperius Curse. The new secretary in your outer office –’
‘I’m not getting rid of Kingsley Shacklebolt, if that’s what you’re suggesting!’ said the Prime Minister hotly. ‘He’s highly efficient, gets through twice the work the rest of them –’
‘That’s because he’s a wizard,’ said Scrimgeour, without a flicker of a smile. ‘A highly trained Auror, who has been assigned to you for your protection.’
‘Now, wait a moment!’ declared the Prime Minister. ‘You 22 HARRY P OTTER can’t just put your people into my office, I decide who works for me –’
‘I thought you were happy with Shacklebolt?’ said Scrimgeour coldly. ‘I am – that’s to say, I was –’

From 'The other Minister' Half Blood Prince. The wizard spy - a peer of Arthurs to be specific - that got into the Office of the Primer Minister blends in just fine. Furthermore: From Pottermore on Technology.:

This is not to say that you will never find a witch or wizard surfing the net; merely that they will generally be doing so out of slightly condescending curiosity, or else doing research in the field of Muggle Studies.
While they have no need of mundane domestic objects such as dishwashers or vacuum cleaners, some members of the magical community are amused by Muggle television, and a few firebrand wizards even went so far, in the early eighties, as to start a British Wizarding Broadcasting Corporation, in the hope that they would be able to have their own television channel.
...
There is one major exception to the general magical aversion to Muggle technology, and that is the car (and, to a lesser extent, motorbikes and trains). Prior to the introduction of the International Statute of Secrecy, wizards and Muggles used the same kind of everyday transport: horse-drawn carts and sailing ships among them. The magical community was forced to abandon horse-drawn vehicles when they became glaringly outmoded. It is pointless to deny that wizardkind looked with great envy upon the speedy and comfortable automobiles that began filling the roads in the twentieth century, and eventually even the Ministry of Magic bought a fleet of cars, modifying them with various useful charms and enjoying them very much indeed. Many wizards love cars with a child-like passion, and there have been cases of pure-bloods who claim never to touch a Muggle artefact, and yet are discovered to have a flying Rolls Royce in their garage. However, the most extreme anti-Muggles eschew all motorised transport; Sirius Black’s love of motorbikes incensed his hard-line parents.

Wizards like cars, had their own TV channels, and can use the internet just fine. They choose not to.

Any many people do point out how stupid and stagnate the real-world culture is sometimes, take nuclear power, if we took the time to utilize it and diversify it there is no telling what kind of new innovations we can come up with but Ruiling bodies don't want to change things that work because it isn't profitable for them personally and the average joe looks at it like a boogieman. I'm nearly in my 30s and I've been shouting into the void since high school about how we seriously need to look at nuclear power. I wrote an essay and did a mock presidential speech about it.
Heck we just had a government official in response to an artificial energy shortage say, "Go buy and electric car." Yes stupid exist in the real world. That doesn't make it less stupid or dangerous.

Nuclear power being held back is because of retarded Green policies and ignorance.

as far as isolationism goes, Let me put it this way. There has never been a time in recorded history where isolationism has worked continuously in an ongoing manner. At best it is eventually broken and most of the time it comes across in spirts. Saying an advanced alien race can do it is more a constancy of faith. Well, you've not seen them therefore isolationism is working. it maybe true but that can be said about anything that can't be seen. It works a certain way because the believer says it works that way or in the case of a written work the author says it works that way. JK Rowling was able to handwave it all away by essentially using Voldemort as a Satan stand in while ignoring the influences that made him Voldemort (and yet for some reason tried making Snape Sympathetic by blaming his influences for why he was a bad guy but not really a bad guy.)

Isolationism doesn't work in real life, because you have the risk of people being able to become peer powers, people already know you exist, and people can fuck with you. Wizards don't have that issue.

1) Wizards defacto control our government. When the minister of magic wanted to talk, he had the American presidents schedule re-arranged.
2) Wizards defacto control our press. When an entire town was wiped out, we were fed a bullshit story (That the PM was not aware of), when a bridge full of people were collapsed killing dozens, we were fed a bullshit story. Countless murders during the war were covered up my Wizards.
3) We have no way of matching magic. The only way to learn magic is to integrate yourself into the magical world from the age of 11.
4) They can bring the whole system down at literally any time. They have unlimited access to our world leaders, seamless mind control, and a contempt for muggles. Even assuming they don't have large scale memory alteration as Pottermore and Rowlings fiat statements imply, they can cause WW3 whenever they want, and fuck off to some abandoned island while we blow ourselves into the stone age. This is from the same chapter of HBP as above. It is a leader of a G8 nation being informed that the defacto superpower of the world is going to have his memory altered, because the Wizard PM doesn't want to wait an hour, and demands to be seen immediately.

‘That can be rearranged,’ said the portrait at once. The Prime Minister’s heart sank. He had been afraid of that. ‘But I really was rather hoping to speak –’
‘We shall arrange for the president to forget to call. He will telephone tomorrow night instead,’ said the little man. ‘Kindly respond immediately to Mr Fudge.’
‘I … oh … very well,’ said the Prime Minister weakly. ‘Yes, I’ll see Fudge

As an aside, Snape is scum, his 'redemption' arc was him going 'My waifu isn't alafui! Waaah'. He didn't give a shit about anyone right up until the end.

I will give you the fact that the Ministry of magic was in a civil war and I did not know that the DMLE exist. I don't remember them being in any of the books.

I think they only get officially named as such in the 5th book?

EDIT: This is Arthurs office from OoTP, for what it's worth:

Mr. Weasley’s dingy office seemed to be slightly smaller than the broom cupboard. Two desks had been crammed inside it and there was barely room to move around them because of all the overflowing filing cabinets lining the walls, on top of which were tottering piles of files. The little wall space available bore witness to Mr. Weasley’s obsessions; there were several posters of cars, including one of a dismantled engine, two illustrations of postboxes he seemed to have cut out of Muggle children’s books, and a diagram showing how to wire a plug. Sitting on top of Mr. Weasley’s overflowing in-tray was an old toaster that was hiccuping in a disconsolate way and a pair of empty leather gloves that were twiddling their thumbs. A photograph of the Weasley family stood beside the in-tray. Harry noticed that Percy appeared to have walked out of it

He seems to be one of two people that works in the department.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

1) Wizards defacto control our government. When the minister of magic wanted to talk, he had the American presidents schedule re-arranged.
2) Wizards defacto control our press. When an entire town was wiped out, we were fed a bullshit story (That the PM was not aware of), when a bridge full of people were collapsed killing dozens, we were fed a bullshit story. Countless murders during the war were covered up my Wizards.
3) We have no way of matching magic. The only way to learn magic is to integrate yourself into the magical world from the age of 11.
4) They can bring the whole system down at literally any time. They have unlimited access to our world leaders, seamless mind control, and a contempt for muggles. Even assuming they don't have large scale memory alteration as Pottermore and Rowlings fiat statements imply, they can cause WW3 whenever they want, and fuck off to some abandoned island while we blow ourselves into the stone age. This is from the same chapter of HBP as above. It is a leader of a G8 nation being informed that the defacto superpower of the world is going to have his memory altered, because the Wizard PM doesn't want to wait an hour, and demands to be seen immediately.

I'll concede as I don't really have an argument that isn't personal taste but to be perfectly honest with you, I wish there was a series more about these things listed above as it all sound like way more interesting concepts to explore than what we actually got.

What we could have gotten is "a cool political thriller series that questions how far do you go before someone decides the status quo is not worth keeping."

what we got was "JK Rowlings personal prep school fantasies in a medieval castle with a tacked-on clique Chosen one arc to make itself seem deeper than it actually was. Part of me thinks the harry potter books should have stayed a Junior Mr. Series but what do I know I'm not the richest author in the world.

 

[Rhyse]

I'll concede as I don't really have an argument that isn't personal taste but to be perfectly honest with you, I wish there was a series more about these things listed above as it all sound like way more interesting concepts to explore than what we actually got.

What we could have gotten is "a cool political thriller series that questions how far do you go before someone decides the status quo is not worth keeping."

what we got was "JK Rowlings personal prep school fantasies in a medieval castle with a tacked on clique Chosen one arc to make itself seem deeper than it actually was.

Necroscope is a cool series that's sort of like that. It rapidly shoots off into more fantasy though. Libriomancer is good as well if you want something easy to read.

 

[mrttao]

You clearly haven't read the books, so no.

And that is where I stopped reading. If you are going to be a jerk about it I don't have to waste my time on you.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Well, I think this would be a...very asymetrical and fluid fight, where there are no real victors and just a lot of dead bodies suddenly appearing and disappearing as far as us muggles/normies are concerned.

Depends Comic version of MIB were expertly trained in how to take down magic users and extremely effective. They also had no qualms about mass slaughtering children.

Toon-movie verse would need to adjust to magical energies but they should still be able to prosecute that war.

They probably just end up working together after a series of extremely brutal ambushes/counter ambushes. Neither side can really destroy the other, nor would either side particularly want to destroy the other. Aliens are functionally the same as random magical creatures, and random magical creatures are functionally the same as aliens for the MIB.

IIRC in the Comic they have their own department of Aurors more or less and they've got a really good track record against evil Gods, demons and lovecraftian horrors.

 

[Agent23]

Depends Comic version of MIB were expertly trained in how to take down magic users and extremely effective. They also had no qualms about mass slaughtering children.

Toon-movie verse would need to adjust to magical energies but they should still be able to prosecute that war.



IIRC in the Comic they have their own department of Aurors more or less and they've got a really good track record against evil Gods, demons and lovecraftian horrors.

Sounds like I need to read these comics!

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Sounds like I need to read these comics!

Been ages, but from what I remember Agent J's recruitment saga involved him as a DEA agent initiating what he thought was a routine drug bust along the Mexican-Tejas border only for it to turn out to be a ritual sacrifice by some gangsters of a teenager to some Aztec Demon.

The comic the movies were based on they were less an an unholy fusion of the INS/smalltown cops and the FBI and more the glow in the dark/CIA are occultist memes personified.

They were not comedic, kind or very benevolent and it was ambiguous if they even served anyone but themselves and their own twisted agenda by the end.

 

[Rhyse]

And that is where I stopped reading.

No? This is where you stopped reading.

Mr. and Mrs. Dursley, of number four, Privet Drive, were proud to say that they were perfectly normal, thank you very much. They were the last people you’d expect to be involved in anything strange or mysterious, because they just didn’t hold with such nonsense...

If you are going to be a jerk about it I don't have to waste my time on you.

Calm down. I called you ignorant, because you posted a bunch of ignorant twaddle, if you don't want to play anymore then just stop playing. Don't post a 'waaah, waah! Meanie!' comment to try and get the last word in.

 

[mrttao]

No? This is where you stopped reading.

Calm down. I called you ignorant, because you posted a bunch of ignorant twaddle, if you don't want to play anymore then just stop playing. Don't post a 'waaah, waah! Meanie!' comment to try and get the last word in.

You are an ignorant buffoon who starts internet arguments for the purpose of winning, fails at winning, all the while patting himself over the back for your imagined "victory".

There is no point in debating with you, because you do not want to debate in good faith, you want to win.

 

[Rhyse]

You are an ignorant buffoon who starts internet arguments for the purpose of winning, fails at winning, all the while patting himself over the back for your imagined "victory".

Well now you're just being a jerk!

There is no point in debating with you, because you do not want to debate in good faith, you want to win.

Not at all, I want to debate to have fun, it's fun to chat about my favourite franchises, and spitball ideas, and discuss things. What I take umbrage at is someone not having the common decency to actually 'engage' in a debate. Let's actually rewind for a second here and go over what happened. You posted something, I posted back, you posted a response, I posted a response; all was perfectly fine and good.

You then threw your toys out of the pram because you what? Don't like the tone of my writing? My post is still there, I haven't edited it, or changed it, none of the information in it is posted in bad faith; I'll happily provide sources for my claims as well, and discuss them. Someone else has come along and had a perfectly fine, enjoyable debate with me about it. I'm 100% down for doing that with you. If you want, I'll even go back and change the first sentence so you don't get upset about it. If you'll change your posts to remove your insults as well though champ, wouldn't want you to be a hypocrite now. I don't care about 'winning'. I debate retarded concepts like 'Fictional Wizards Vs Fictional Alien ICE' because it's fun. You're taking this far too seriously.

 

[mrttao]

Well now you're just being a jerk!

True. I am finally replying in kind.
Why would I waste my time writing a cerebral reply when all I get is crap flung at me after each time? You want to fling crap, well here is a load of crap in your face right back.
I gave you several chances durig this conversation and each time you disappointed me.
Maybe next conversation you would comport yourself better and it won't devolve into this.

 

[Rhyse]

True. I am finally replying in kind.

"Finally". You didn't do me the basic courtesy of apparently reading past the first sentence, because you have the ego of a mardy ten year old. There's no finally about this, you giant fucking baby.

Why would I waste my time writing a cerebral reply when all I get is crap flung at me after each time? You want to fling crap, well here is a load of crap in your face right back.

Because you're on a debate forum, in the debate section, having a debate and I wrote a post for that debate? There's nothing in my post that's insulting, or offensive, or even particularly mean. I called you ignorant of the setting because you clearly are. Your 'argument' was at several points 'They dumb!' with no expansion or explanation. You thought that a class they taught was 'Maths' when it's about telling the future - and is only ever mentioned in the context of telling the future - which you could have known by literally googling the phrase 'Arithmancy Harry Potter. Seeing as how it's the 1st result; you think all they teach in the history class is Goblin rebellions and nothing else, despite that also being a single google search away. I called you ignorant because your post contained ignorance. You can freely call me names as well if you want. I'll happily respond and argue with your posts doing so.

All I've actually asked you to do repeatedly is literally just engage, and you've repeatedly thrown a hissy fit because of this comment:

You clearly haven't read the books, so no.

Which is about as innocuous as it comes really. Would you like me to apologise for it? I'm perfectly happy to say 'Sorry for saying you didn't read Harry Potter MrTtao Sir, I won't ever insinuate you are not as educated on a childrens book as you offhandedly claim to be Mrttao sir. Please Mrttao sir do me the honour of accepting this humble mans fevered apology Mrttao sir.'.

I can do that if you'd like?

Honestly I'd have thought you'd be more pissy about the 'Magical deathcamps' comment, that one I can see someone be offended by.

I gave you several chances durig this conversation and each time you disappointed me.
Maybe next conversation you would comport yourself better and it won't devolve into this.

This you?

I just downvoted your comment.

FAQ
What does this mean?
The amount of karma (points) on your comment and Reddit account has decreased by one.

Why did you do this?
There are several reasons I may deem a comment to be unworthy of positive or neutral karma. These include, but are not limited to:

• Rudeness towards other Redditors,
• Spreading incorrect information,
• Sarcasm not correctly flagged with a /s.

Am I banned from the Reddit?
No - not yet. But you should refrain from making comments like this in the future. Otherwise I will be forced to issue an additional downvote, which may put your commenting and posting privileges in jeopardy.

I don't believe my comment deserved a downvote. Can you un-downvote it?
Sure, mistakes happen. But only in exceedingly rare circumstances will I undo a downvote. If you would like to issue an appeal, shoot me a private message explaining what I got wrong. I tend to respond to Reddit PMs within several minutes. Do note, however, that over 99.9% of downvote appeals are rejected, and yours is likely no exception.

How can I prevent this from happening in the future?
Accept the downvote and move on. But learn from this mistake: your behavior will not be tolerated on Reddit.com. I will continue to issue downvotes until you improve your conduct. Remember: Reddit is privilege, not a right

It didn't 'devolve' into anything, you chose to behave like a bratty child. You can stop at any time; my post is still there. You can at any point read it - set aside your kneejerk sobs of horror at the bad man mean tone - click 'Reply' and then argue with it. I would enjoy it if you did. It would be fun. Or don't. I'll be honest, I'm genuinely confused as to A) Why you're so pissy about this, and B) Why you're bothering to reply if you're even half as pissy as you seem to be.

 

[mrttao]

Because you're on a debate forum, in the debate section, having a debate and I wrote a post for that debate?

No, you didn't.
I wrote debate posts 3 times and 3 times you replied to them by flinging crap back instead of addressing any of my points.

As a consequence of that I realized you are not trying to honestly debate, you are trying to "win". Until you change your ways I am just going to debate other people instead of you.

 

[Rhyse]

No, you didn't.
I wrote debate posts 3 times and 3 times you replied to them by flinging crap back instead of addressing any of my points.

Which points did I miss? I'll go down the shorthand list of the ones you'd made and I'd be thrilled if you could say which I didn't address, or point me to some I missed.
- Wizards are idiots: No, you didn't read the books.
- Wizards ignore logic: I asked for examples as to how they do that.
- Wizards gave unsupervised time travel to a child: I pointed out that it was supervised, it wasn't unrestricted time travel, and that the consequences are correctable.
- You talked about how the government was easy to infiltrate and suggested a sneakoscope: I explained Sneakoscopes don't work that way, and then pointed out it's a public building, and asked how you'd go about defending it while maintaining function.
- You said quidditch was shit: I said it's a cultural difference and has no bearing on them as a people. I gave real world examples of our own weird sports.
- You said they gave monetary control to hostile nation: I argued that Goblins are just another race within the wizarding world, and that the last rebellion was two centuries ago and very small. I used the real life example of an African American who, two centuries ago, was property to make a comparative point.
- You said that the government was inept: I gave three/four points on why they're not inept, and then posited that they are hopelessly corrupt, and that the nature of the civil war made defence effectively untenable.
- You said Arithmancy was just maths, and that wizards don't know maths: I explained that it was actually a form of future telling, wizards would know maths up to a certain point, and argued that more advanced mathematics likely isn't really needed since their technology works on principles that make it pointless to learn. I also posited that (even though Rowling didn't mean it that way) it was a great way to keep muggleborns in the wizarding world.
- You said Bins only talked about the Goblin rebellions: I posted the curriculum he teaches, which is majority non rebellion, then asked what you would have done with him since firing him would erase him from existence.
- I then went on a rant about how Rowling had made a depressingly dystopian world, rather than a whimsical fun one if you think through the implications of what she'd put to paper.

Disagreeing with you, doesn't mean I've 'Flung crap' or failed to address your points.

As a consequence of that I realized you are not trying to honestly debate, you are trying to "win". Until you change your ways I am just going to debate other people instead of you.

And again, I'm not 'trying to win.' It's a debate over two children's franchises. I am trying to have a fun time shittalking with people over things I like. If I wanted to 'win' I'd probably just go 'LMAO retard didn't have a come back!' or declared victory, or something like that. I'll be upfront, I'm perfectly happy to be a cunt and 'declare victory' if I didn't want to continue to debate; I don't want to end the debate. Why would I still be responding otherwise. I'm interested in what your counter-arguments would actually be to what I've posted. The same as I was interested in what the other poster who responded was talking about.