The political triangle

Hlaalu Agent

Nerevar going to let you down
Founder
Christendom is a mix of Germanic, Graeco-Roman, and Judeo-Christian traditions, yes.

Western Civilization existed before Christianity, at least in the form of Graeco-Roman civilization. If another religion similar to Christianity arose instead, analogues to us would be still making the same arguments and they'd still be as valid. Christianity, is part of Western Civilization and a defining part, but it is not the same.
 
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Western Civilization existed before Christianity, at least in the form of Graeco-Roman civilization. If another religion similar to Christianity arose instead, analogues to us would be still making the same arguments and they'd still be as valid. Christianity, is part of Western Civilization and a defining part, but it is not the same.

I would really encourage you and @The Name of Love to start an Athenaeum thread about this.
 

Hlaalu Agent

Nerevar going to let you down
Founder
I'm not really interested in discussing it anymore though. It's not an interesting topic to me.

It probably isn't interesting. Since we are arguing over minor differences in opinion, since we both think Christianity is important in the story of the west. Though I am sure you can glean the reason why we differ, besides politics.
 
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Sorry then, Gentlemen, I was just eager to see a philosophical discussion on the relative place of Christianity in western civilisation.
 

Hlaalu Agent

Nerevar going to let you down
Founder
Sorry then, Gentlemen, I was just eager to see a philosophical discussion on the relative place of Christianity in western civilisation.

I am alright with discussing it later with other people, but I would wager I'd need to read more to do so properly.
 

Comrade Clod

Gay Space Communist
Western Civilization existed before Christianity, at least in the form of Graeco-Roman civilization. If another religion similar to Christianity arose instead, analogues to us would be still making the same arguments and they'd still be as valid. Christianity, is part of Western Civilization and a defining part, but it is not the same.

Ima disagree on that one, greco-roman civilisation as under the empire has rather little in common with any modern day society. We've ditched slavery, have at least nominally recognised women as equal to men, changed the attitude to religion entirely and numerous other differences.
 

S'task

Renegade Philosopher
Administrator
Staff Member
Founder
Ima disagree on that one, greco-roman civilisation as under the empire has rather little in common with any modern day society. We've ditched slavery, have at least nominally recognised women as equal to men, changed the attitude to religion entirely and numerous other differences.
A lot of those seeds of change actually originated from Christianity. While it might be nice handwave to say "some other religion would have arose and done similarly" you actually can't just handwave it like that, as the specific teachings of a religion DO have an effect. Part of the reason Chinese civilization is so different than European goes back to core religion and philosophies underlying those cultures.

Oh, and to the specific way in which Christianity seeded the end of slavery in Europe, equality for women, and others goes back to some specific verses in the Christian New Testament:
Galatians 3:26 - 29 said:
So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Bear in mind, this appears to have been written around 50 AD. This is a HUGELY subversive idea for much of the cultures in the Roman Empire and is arguably one of the major seeds of the concept of individual equality in western thought.
 

Nagaasha

Active member
I like it. The only thing I would add (putting the issue of internationalism aside), would be to label gh ed three sides at the midpoint based on the point of the triangle they are opposite from. I would label the side opposite fron fraternity as anarchy/atomism, the side opposite liberty as authoritarian, and the side opposite equality as capitalistic.

I also find it interesting that populism lies at the dead center. Less equality minded than a progressive, less liberty minded than a conservative, and less stability/fraternity minded than a totalitarian.
 

JagerIV

Well-known member
This does remind me a bit of the "infinite horsehoe" idea put forward by the Academic agent.



It was his attempt to explain why the "other sides" seem to horseshoe to each other from the perspective of a third side.

His three sides were summarized as Liberal, Socialist, and Fascist for the initial explanation, but when he breaks down what traits he's applying to the three sides of the triangle, its obvious he's discussing something a little bit broader.

Or at least, as someone mentioned earlier, Socialism and Liberalism are relatively clearly defined, but the final point of the triangle is much more catch alli. That pops up in several of his explanations.

For example, Liberalism supports negative rights, Socialism supports Positive rights. That's a clear enough distinction. However, the other side of that doesn't really have a clear, universal position on that.

I think maybe the main divider of "the third point" which separates it from liberalism and Socialism is a general rejection of Universalism: liberalism and Socialism both have a belief in a universal rule and order, and the argument is over what that universal order is (private property or public property, for example). The third way is much less accepting of that: for example feudalism puts a lot of things in muddled middle ground between private property and public property. And Monarchists implicitly reject a universal rule code for people, with explicitly different laws for different people.

Now, that might suggest were taking something that is a spectrum, and trying to make "centrism/moderation" a different axis, but saying "monarchy is a middle ground compromise between liberalism and Socialism" doesn't really sound totally right either.
 
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@JagerIV , one might say that "a monarchist regards religious matters as universal, political matters as communal, and economic matters as personal; a liberal regards political matters as universal, economic matters as communal, and spiritual matters as personal". It is pithy, but it could also use some refinement. Still, I think it captures something of the point you allude to.
 

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