Those people are small minded and don't get the concept of a multi theater war.
Star Wars The Mandalorian
- Thread starter Husky_Khan
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See, that is a good point
Skallagrim
Well-known member
People can say everything they want about multi-theatre wars: this is a story. It also has to make narrative sense, which is a different level of analysis.
Lord Sovereign
The resident Britbong
Dave Filoni's OC surviving the wrath of Vader thanks to Ezra "specialist snowflake in the galaxy" Bridger and time travel shenanigans, opens a can of worms I really wish had stayed shut.
I am very much in the camp of pretending Star Wars: Rebels doesn't exist.
I am very much in the camp of pretending Star Wars: Rebels doesn't exist.
And it still does.
Take into account time as it passes, how people have to travel and the like, how all the diffrent aspects of everyone happens.
Ashoka was stuck on a planet with no way back for the entire OT which is only a few years. Reasonable.
And fun thing, they portray multi theater wars better then a lot of stuff.
A story about a war/wars, set in a galaxy sized environment, and you are complaining not every major character was present at the most pivotal events and campaigns?
And it is not just 'one' story either.
Typhonis
Well-known member
The problem is ...ease of movement. You see the GFFA has a tiny problem...space travel is rediculously easy. How Easy? How far is it from Yavin to Scariff? How far is Tatooine from Alderaan? Alderaan to Yavin?
It isn't that Ashoka needs to hop a tramp freighter that will spend a month going from port to port but that she has access to transport that allows her to go from Tatooine to Alderaan in a matter of hours.
Shoot Alderaan to Yavin is not that far. Vader or Tarkin did say it would be a Day long remembered. The Death of Obi Wan Kenobi and the destruction of the Rebellion.
It isn't that Ashoka needs to hop a tramp freighter that will spend a month going from port to port but that she has access to transport that allows her to go from Tatooine to Alderaan in a matter of hours.
Shoot Alderaan to Yavin is not that far. Vader or Tarkin did say it would be a Day long remembered. The Death of Obi Wan Kenobi and the destruction of the Rebellion.
Skallagrim
Well-known member
Narratively, it doesn't make sense. If the conceit is that Luke is the only hope, the last of the Jedi, then it's narratively poor form to later say "but actually there was a way more experienced Force user around who had every reason to oppose Palpatine, but who just never did, because it's a multi-theatre war and there were... uh... *checks notes*.... better things to do than help defeat the evil emperor."
Or trying to patch that by saying "but actually the way more experienced Force user, was, uh... *checks notes*... stuck on a desolate planet, or something, yeah, the entire time-- and then she happened to find a way off that planet after Endor, yeah, that's what happened."
Neither is narratively satisfactory, and the first one is also shit as far as world-building goes (because the internal logic fails; there would be no more important battle than the one against Palps himself). These conceits are ham-fisted ways in which Filoni tries to keep his pet OC around, fully knowing that it contradicts the idea of the OT, but trying to contort his way around that problem. The second excuse works as far as world-building goes, but it's a shit narrative.
Point is, the OT came first, and that means you have to respect it. If a character living up to Yavin Year messes with the set-up of the OT, that you have to kill that character off before then, or find some not-shit reason to have that character gone. A dramatic exile to the Unknown Regions would work, especially if you then set a whole different story there, wholly unconnected to the main saga. Because then--
--this statement becomes true. Then, it's a separate story. Non-interacting narratives. But right now, saying "it's not one story" is bullshit. Of course it's one story. Ahsoka isn't some unrelated side character like, I don't know, fucking Dash Rendar or something. Her plot is completely interwoven with the whole Skywalker story. The way she's set up in relation to Vader in Rebels only underscores that. Which means that the above contortions that have to explain why she just happened not to be there to help Luke in facing Palpy are doomed to fail. They can't conceal that it's a dogshit narrative.
Bottom line: "surviving Jedi" just popping out of the woodwork post-OT was a crap decision when the old EU did it, and it's a crap decision now. They should be fucking dead, and if they're not fucking dead, they should be completely and pretty much permanently incommunicado. The only reason that's not the case is that Filoni won't get rid of his orange waifu. It's an impulse that leads to shitty fanfic type narratives, and that's a shame.
Man, I can just taste the salt through the screen.
Skallagrim
Well-known member
I was under the impression we were having a normal conversation.
I also seem to recall you criticising works you don't appreciate. Apparently, that's an okay thing to do when it's something you dislike, but for some reason it's bad when it's about something you like? Am I getting that right?
Just generally speaking her being stuck on a planet the whole time seemed fine to me. As plot devices go its good enough for me. 
Lord Sovereign
The resident Britbong
I mean, I’m not against the idea of some Jedi surviving, but it should be no more than a handful in the galactic arse crack of nowhere. Indeed, it would be better if they were just a bunch of frightened Padawans who were smart enough to keep their heads down and miss the Inquisitorial net that got the other few hundred survivors.
And none of them, absolutely none of them, should be survivors of a Darth Vader encounter.
And none of them, absolutely none of them, should be survivors of a Darth Vader encounter.
The amount of 'the narrative must do this to make sense' in your post just read like another butthurt anti-Ahsoka fan rant, which tend to make my eyes glaze over and dial down how seriously I want to take a conversation like this.
This particular line "Filoni tries to keep his pet OC around" is very telling of how you view anything related to Ahsoka.
Yes, and I'm not saying you cannot criticize it.
I just don't have to treat said criticism seriously.
Narratively, it would have been better had Ashoka exited the weird ways between worlds AFTER the end of Return of the Jedi. It would fit fine with how the place was established to work AND it would maintain the narrative of the OT without anything convoluted in place.
Skallagrim
Well-known member
Just generally speaking her being stuck on a planet the whole time seemed fine to me. As plot devices go its good enough for me.
It's not lore-breaking, but it's not convincing when I look at the whole story as a complete plot. It reads way too much like "oh shit, I wrote myself into a corner; there's NO reason that character would be absent for THIS event... Oh, I know: I'll just put her on a bus... and then the bus comes back right after!"
That reads like a crappy contortion, because it is.
As I said before: if they'd altered the story to have Ezra and Ahsoka both disappear into the Unknown Regions, far away and unable to return, then the plot makes more sense-- since you can then create a new, unconnected adventure for them over there. It's a more structural/permanent removal of the characters, not just a weak "oh, yeah, they... uh... couldn't make it to Endor that day, sorry."
Ideally, I'd prefer them all killed off before the OT. But sure, some "unknowns" can survive out on the fringes. That's not implausible. And a world of difference from "Oh, yeah, this character who knew Anakin Skywalker personally and then faced him when he was Vader... yeah, she survived that... but then she just wasn't there... and then she was back!"
And to be clear, for the people who can't read very well: I have nothing against Ahsoka, really. I have something against shitty narratives that exist just to keep her around. The issue isn't the character, but Filoni's unwillingness to let go of that character even when the pre-existing plot demands that he do so.
"Somehow, Ahsoka returned."
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LordDemiurge
Well-known member
Does this forum have a 'reboot the Sequel trilogy' thread or something to that effect? This is probably faint praise, but I'm guessing most people here could probably come up with something better than whatever is now canon.
Lord Sovereign
The resident Britbong
Thing is, I’d reckon Jedi survivors are a certainty. The Order is too widely spread and the Galaxy is very big. Even if in the wildest dreams of Palpatine, if Order 66 and the Inquisitors got 99% of them…there’d still be a few dozen of them left. And the Outer Rim is a very easy place to disappear…
But not in the way Ahsoka did. And I’m going to be brutally honest, but she should not have walked away from Vader, let alone fought him on semi-equal terms.
Skallagrim
Well-known member
It seems to me that some Jedi must certainly have survived Order 66, but 1) a lot of them had already fallen in the war, and 2) the massacre of the rest was really well set up. So there would indeed be only a bunch of stragglers. Of those, I think most "fully trained" Jedi would be inclined to do the Right Thing, which means try to organise some kind of resistance during Palpy's early reign. At which point they get hunted down by Vader. That's the whole point of the Purge.
What remains, then? Some apprentices, who survived due to their Masters sacrificing themselves. The fact that they have fewer skills makes them less likely to become leading resistance leaders, which increases their chances of surviving. Maybe there are a few trained Jedi out there, but I think Vader's efforts would be directed at finding those, and that in the intervening two decades, they'd slowly be hunted down and killed.
In the old EU, the instances of some Jedi apprentices (basically "small fries") surviving were pretty credible, and since Force-sensitivity was assumed to run in the family, this then created a bunch of Force-sensitive children of said survivors, and those kids could later be trained and help rebuild the Jedi Order. Although he was a bit of a Gary Stu, Corran Horn's back-story made sense in that regard. The guy never even knew his grand-dad was a Jedi, and his own dad was never anything like fully trained (Nejaa having died when Valin/Hal was ten years old).
Conversely, I always thought it was somewhat implausible that Qu Rahn (from Dark Forces), survived through 5 ABY. (Especially since it would make zero difference to the plot if Jerec had caught up to Qu Rahn in 1 BBY, killing him then.) The difference being that Qu Rahn was -- exactly like you'd expect from a justice-loving Jedi -- heavily involved with the Rebel cause. So him staying off the radar is just not that believable, really.
So, yeah-- I think survivors would mostly be "small fries", like apprentices who slipped between the cracks and learned to keep their heads down (first out of sheer terror, being basically kids living through a nightmare, and later out of well-honed survival instincts). The bigger fish would be more likely to get caught, because unlike Yoda and Obi-Wan, they wouldn't adopt the (rather un-Jedi-like) approach that "just suffering through it" is the correct choice. Because they don't know about Luke and Leia, and all the reasons why Yoda and Obi-Wan believe that the children of the Chosen One are the galaxy's only real hope...
There have been some discussions about it, but generally spread around across various SW threads, I think.
Feel like I was nitpicky on the reaction of the previous episode so, overall this episode seemed pretty solid. Nice finale to a really disappointing season. This episode itself had some fairly cringe parts but it was pretty nice for the most part. The first five or six episodes were basically filler and you could've gotten by just watching the prologue and episodes of more then half the season and been satisfied.
It seems pretty apparent... well IMHO, that they should've just saved those Mando focused episodes in Book of Boba Fett for this season and it probably would've been better for it and honestly it wouldn't of surprised me if that was a prior plan. Instead they basically shat up Book of Boba Fett and made this season of Mandalorian be so blase and filled with filler that it just felt so derivative and by the numbers and safe. No creative spark or anything special like the prior two seasons. Like a season ran by reaction metrics of what trends as popular.
Looks like the next season is on track of hoping establishing that yes, Din Djarin is in fact the main character of this show. I always saw him as it, but the quibbling about Bo Katan somehow hijacking the show, I'm getting eye strain rolling my eyes at that complaint.
This is probably the last season I'll watch of my own volition though I think unless I hear Season Four turns out to be amazing. It'll have to be a group viewing or something lol.
It seems pretty apparent... well IMHO, that they should've just saved those Mando focused episodes in Book of Boba Fett for this season and it probably would've been better for it and honestly it wouldn't of surprised me if that was a prior plan. Instead they basically shat up Book of Boba Fett and made this season of Mandalorian be so blase and filled with filler that it just felt so derivative and by the numbers and safe. No creative spark or anything special like the prior two seasons. Like a season ran by reaction metrics of what trends as popular.
Looks like the next season is on track of hoping establishing that yes, Din Djarin is in fact the main character of this show. I always saw him as it, but the quibbling about Bo Katan somehow hijacking the show, I'm getting eye strain rolling my eyes at that complaint.
This is probably the last season I'll watch of my own volition though I think unless I hear Season Four turns out to be amazing. It'll have to be a group viewing or something lol.
Simonbob
Well-known member
I'm finding it either bland or silly, too.
I mean, jetting to orbit? Seriously? On a single jetpack tank?
Ok, If you're going there. I mean, they're winning the fight, except against the Moff himself, and the fighters. But, you don't see a single Mando die, I think. But, somehow they have to crash a capital ship into the base! Yeah!
It looks great, but it doesn't hold together well. Moff Gideon being such an awesome fighter is his Power Armor is nice, but silly. He's a bloody officer, not peak trooper, but he showed he was dangerous back in S2, so, Ok. So much of this stuff sort of pops up from nowhere. We know what the major project that Moff Gideon was doing, and it had nothing to do with power armor, or knock off Mandos. It was modded clones, so when he lost to Jin at the end of S2, where did he get......
Meh. I'm just not feeling it so much, now I'm nitpicking. If I just wanted random action shots, I'd go watch old Arnie movies.
It really needs more time to hold it together, and more consistant scripting.
Ok, If you're going there. I mean, they're winning the fight, except against the Moff himself, and the fighters. But, you don't see a single Mando die, I think. But, somehow they have to crash a capital ship into the base! Yeah!
It looks great, but it doesn't hold together well. Moff Gideon being such an awesome fighter is his Power Armor is nice, but silly. He's a bloody officer, not peak trooper, but he showed he was dangerous back in S2, so, Ok. So much of this stuff sort of pops up from nowhere. We know what the major project that Moff Gideon was doing, and it had nothing to do with power armor, or knock off Mandos. It was modded clones, so when he lost to Jin at the end of S2, where did he get......
Meh. I'm just not feeling it so much, now I'm nitpicking. If I just wanted random action shots, I'd go watch old Arnie movies.
It really needs more time to hold it together, and more consistant scripting.