The efficacy (or lack thereof) of Gun Control

Battlegrinder

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Obozny
Kind of. Its not allowed for deer depending on the state but it is allowed for boar and coyote typically. Definitely a no on big game like Elk as far as I'm aware.

Well, coyote's are pretty small, and isn't the rule for boar something like "we don't care what you use, just kill them"?

The round the AR-15 fires is also intermediate and optimized for combat, but optimized for combat just doesn't equal lethality.

They use 5.56 because it's small enough to carry loads of for use in suppression fire, while still being relatively lethal for it's size or something, right?
 

ReeeFallin

The Yankee Candle
Well, coyote's are pretty small, and isn't the rule for boar something like "we don't care what you use, just kill them"?



They use 5.56 because it's small enough to carry loads of for use in suppression fire, while still being relatively lethal for it's size or something, right?
It's purely for controllability.
 

FriedCFour

PunishedCFour
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Well, coyote's are pretty small, and isn't the rule for boar something like "we don't care what you use, just kill them"?



They use 5.56 because it's small enough to carry loads of for use in suppression fire, while still being relatively lethal for it's size or something, right?
Thats part of it but the rounds grandfathers design was because its optimized for the average combat distances. Its good for about 2-300 meters out. Lethality isnt much a factor since it doesnt matter if the guy is dead or incapacitated so much.
 

Marduk

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Yeah, the kinds of weapons criminals use can be very geographically dependent.
For one the AK thing is in relative terms not too common in US due to alternatives, but in Europe, in places with good access to Balkan or North African black markets, and also i'd guess in some parts of South and Central America...

You do get terrorists and criminals alike running around with fully automatic AK's in countries like Sweden or France.
Thats part of it but the rounds grandfathers design was because its optimized for the average combat distances. Its good for about 2-300 meters out. Lethality isnt much a factor since it doesnt matter if the guy is dead or incapacitated so much.
Lethality of 5.56 is due to the small caliber very dependent on the fragmentation tendency of particular ammunition type used, they require a certain impact velocity to fragment properly, with longer ranges and shorter barreled rifles this reliance on fragmentation can be a problem, different round models can have different behaviors and requirements. Other than that, being powerful enough to penetrate into parts of central nervous system at range, it's also a case of "it's lethal enough if placed well enough" even without that.
 

Francis Urquhart

Well-known member
That said, I don't see why they'd lie here, and if they had manipulated this data, I imagine it would suggest that the primary weapon used in crimes was the AR-15 (probably with an ultra deadly barrel shroud modification and bayonet lug), not revolvers and hi points.

A piece of advice that I have learned from many years of bitter experience. People never tell you something because the information will benefit you. They tell you something because you having the information will benefit them. So, the primary thing to do is to work out why what they are saying will benefit them. In Chicago its easy. The city is run by the Democrat Party machine and if somebody wants to get somewhere, they do what they are told by that machine. The Democrat Party wants to disarm people so all the information they put out is designed to achieve that end. Their traditional focus has always been to ban handguns because they're the best defense people can have. QED. Ask yourself this. How many pistols did the Chicago police capture that year? How many are in the picture? What are the rest?

I've skimmed a few of thier reports in the past, as far as I've seen they don't have anything showing Chicago's data to be manipulated or dishonest.
Read it carefully and read all of it. It's a long hard job I know but its worth the effort. You'll see how restricted and selective the information Chicago produces is,.

Yes, that data is only based on the guys who got caught, but I don't see anything to suggest there's some hidden population of super crooks using secret criminal tricks to get guns in ways the cops can't fathom. And yes, criminals lie, everyone lies, but given they have no reason to do so here, why would they? Survey's are not totally reliable tools, but they're reliable within a margin of error.

Nobody is talking about some hidden population of super-crooks. Or that they can get guns in ways the police can't fathom. That's childish. What I am pointing out is that, by definition, crooks in jail are crooks that got caught, therefore information derived from them is already tainted by the selectivity built into the base. Also, smart crooks don't get caught (until they do) and therefore have no criminal record and therefore pass NICS.

Surveys might be reliable. Usually they are not. The answers you get are determined by the questions that are asked. Do you remember this scene from Yes Minister?

Bernard Woolley: “He thinks it’s a vote winner”

Sir Humphrey: “Ah, that’s more serious. Sit down. What makes him think that?”

Bernard Woolley: “Well the party have had an opinion poll done and it seems all the voters are in favour of bringing back National Service”

Sir Humphrey: “Well have another opinion poll done to show that they’re agaonst bringing back National Service.”

Bernard Woolley: “They can’t be for and against …”

Sir Humphrey: “Of course they can Bernard! Have you ever been surveyed?”

Bernard Woolley: “Yes, but not me actually my house … Oh I see what you mean”

Sir Humphrey: “You know what happens: nice young lady comes up to you. Obviously you want to create a good impression, you don’t want to look a fool, do you? So she starts asking you some questions: Mr. Woolley, are you worried about the number of young people without jobs?”

Bernard Woolley: “Yes”

Sir Humphrey: “Are you worried about the rise in crime among teenagers?”

Bernard Woolley: “Yes”

Sir Humphrey: “Do you think there is a lack of discipline in our Comprehensive schools?”

Bernard Woolley: “Yes”

Sir Humphrey: “Do you think young people welcome some authority and leadership in their lives?”

Bernard Woolley: “Yes”

Sir Humphrey: “Do you think they respond to a challenge?”

Bernard Woolley: “Yes”

Sir Humphrey: “Would you be in favour of reintroducing National Service?”

Bernard Woolley: “Oh…well, I suppose I might be.”

Sir Humphrey: “Yes or no?”

Bernard Woolley: “Yes”

Sir Humphrey: “Of course you would, Bernard. After all you told you can’t say no to that. So they don’t mention the first five questions and they publish the last one.”

Bernard Woolley: “Is that really what they do?”

Sir Humphrey: “Well, not the reputable ones no, but there aren’t many of those. So alternatively the young lady can get the opposite result.”

Bernard Woolley: “How?”

Sir Humphrey: “Mr. Woolley, are you worried about the danger of war?”

Bernard Woolley: “Yes”

Sir Humphrey: “Are you worried about the growth of armaments?”

Bernard Woolley: “Yes”

Sir Humphrey: “Do you think there is a danger in giving young people guns and teaching them how to kill?”

Bernard Woolley: “Yes”

Sir Humphrey: “Do you think it is wrong to force people to take up arms against their will?”

Bernard Woolley: “Yes”

Sir Humphrey: “Would you oppose the reintroduction of National Service?”

Bernard Woolley: “Yes”

Sir Humphrey: “There you are, you see Bernard. The perfect balanced sample.”
 

Battlegrinder

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Obozny
Their traditional focus has always been to ban handguns because they're the best defense people can have.

But....that's not what the traditional focus has been. Pushes for an assault weapon ban or similar anti-scary black rifle bills and rhetoric is way more common than attempts to ban handguns.

Read it carefully and read all of it. It's a long hard job I know but its worth the effort. You'll see how restricted and selective the information Chicago produces is,.

No, I don't think I will. I've read enough, and thus far you've just insisted it's wrong because you say it is, while I've actually posted sources. If Chicago is concealing things and hiding information and you can prove it, post some evidence and do so.

Surveys might be reliable. Usually they are not.

Surveys of this nature are generally considered to be reasonable reliable and line up with official figures.

https://www.nap.edu/read/10581/chapter/4#51
Do you remember this scene from Yes Minister?
https://www.nap.edu/read/10581/chapter/4#51
No, I don't. I generally don't try to take political advice or lessons from comedians, they have a poor track record.
 
Thats part of it but the rounds grandfathers design was because its optimized for the average combat distances. Its good for about 2-300 meters out. Lethality isnt much a factor since it doesnt matter if the guy is dead or incapacitated so much.

The original written lethality requirement was to equal the .30cal carbine. No elaborate analysis was done to determine if that was enough anyone has ever found, but everyone involved in the decision making was pretty damn aware that this was a popular weapon in WW2 ect so they probably saw no real reason to bother. Back in the 1950s the US Army still determined a lot of requirements by polling active duty field officers rather then hiring contractors.

Worth remembering though the original .223 effort was actually a necked down 7.62mm cartridge case, and the original main intent was to increase muzzle velocity to improve hit probability, which was otherwise reallly frigging dismal. It was only partway through the development phase that the realization entered that if the whole cartridge was much smaller the gun itself could be made much smaller and yet still strong enough for automatic fire.
 

Edgeplay_cgo

Well-known member
a) A coherent way of measuring the types of guns banned in combination with how dangerous they are. Some form of weighted average system and higher values going to more dangerous guns.

According to the FIB crime statistics, the vast majority of firearm assaults and homicides are committed with pistols and revolvers.. Of their firearms categories, the lowest number are committed with rifles of all sorts. So called assault rifles are not broken out separately. So the most "dangerous" firearms by statistical use are handguns. It's probably relatively obvious, why. They are easy to conceal, and are handy. These are the same characteristics that make them valuable as personal protection weapons, particularly outside the house.

b) Looking at the differential between those guns being added onto those micro situations, with a solid theory on the effects of each. This will be possible by measuring before and after effects of different laws + a).

I don't know how you can meaningfully compare something that has 20,000ish incidents, annually, with something that has 200ish incidents.
 

Speaker4thesilent

Crazed Deplorable
Have you considered putting your glasses back on?
You think that calling the legal gun owner the problem when he’s the victim of a crime(theft) isn’t victim blaming? Because that sounds like the very definition of blaming the victim to me.

Yes, confiscating guns from legal owners will reduce the pool of guns available to be stolen. In the same manner confiscating your bank account means that you’re a less attractive target for identity theft.

So how about it? Want to volunteer?
 

Comrade Clod

Gay Space Communist
American gun laws are one of the biggest complaints I have about the country. 2nd perhaps only to its politicians complete refusal to do anything about the issue.
 

Sceptic

Critical Irrationalist
You think that calling the legal gun owner the problem when he’s the victim of a crime(theft) isn’t victim blaming? Because that sounds like the very definition of blaming the victim to me.
So you jump from "many criminals use guns they legally obtained" to "legal gun owners are the victims" and suddenly we're victim blaming?
 

Emperor Tippy

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American gun laws are one of the biggest complaints I have about the country. 2nd perhaps only to its politicians complete refusal to do anything about the issue.
Yup, American gun laws are an unconstitutional abomination that deserve to be tossed out pretty much wholecloth.

I'd prefer the suppressor being illegal.
And your reasoning for this position is?
 

Comrade Clod

Gay Space Communist
And your reasoning for this position is?

They're illegal in my own country, and more to the point there aren't so many practical reasons for them. They don't actually hinder sound that much for instance, rather changing the sound into something not immaeditly obvious as a gunshot.

But its secondary to clamping down on semi-autos, bump stocks and the copious overabundance of firearms in general.
 

Emperor Tippy

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They're illegal in my own country, and more to the point there aren't so many practical reasons for them. They don't actually hinder sound that much for instance, rather changing the sound into something not immaeditly obvious as a gunshot.

But its secondary to clamping down on semi-autos, bump stocks and the copious overabundance of firearms in general.

What they do is reduce the hearing damage caused by using firearms.

As for clamping down on firearms in the US, the Second Amendment says high. Not to mention that it would be practically impossible even ignoring that.

The AR-15 is more than fifty years old at this point. The first iteration was made in 1959 (60 years ago) and you can produce one with relatively basic machine tools and training.

Bumpstocks are an idiotic invention and the same effect can be replicated with a piece of string. That being said, they also shouldn't be illegal.
 

Battlegrinder

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Obozny
But its secondary to clamping down on semi-autos, bump stocks and the copious overabundance of firearms in general.

What good do you believe such a policy would lead to? Given that other countries that have actually enacted such bans showed no change in thier murder rates pre and post ban, why would it work in the US when it didn't work overseas?
 

Comrade Clod

Gay Space Communist
As for clamping down on firearms in the US, the Second Amendment says high.

Something that should be changed then. The constitution of the USA is a fascinating document, but involiable it is not.

What good do you believe such a policy would lead to? Given that other countries that have actually enacted such bans showed no change in thier murder rates pre and post ban, why would it work in the US when it didn't work overseas?

*cough* Am from Australia so will dispute that one.

You guys had more mass shootings in a week than we have in a decade.
 

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