Yokkiziikzekker
Well-known member
The most pro-gun of us all are those who want to use guns to take guns and consolidate those guns into the hands of the police. -shrug-
The efficacy (or lack thereof) of Gun Control
- Thread starter Emperor Tippy
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I suppose totalitarianism does have something of an “official gun culture” which glorifies guns in the hands of uniformed authorities, yes. That’s actually a very good point about some largely disarmed European countries where the police are all toting SMGs everywhere.
IIRC, isn't the reason gun control isn't working in cities like Chicago and NYC and DC is because there's a vibrant internal gun-smuggling trade in the US? Where gun-runners go to states or areas with looser gun laws, purchase firearms, and then bring them back to the gun control areas and sell them on the street? That's why the Democrats are pushing for nation-wide gun control, because without those rules being imposed from coast to coast, no gun control scheme can ever properly work?
(And no, I don't buy the "Democrats want to be a socialist dictatorship" argument, it sounds like histrionics.)
(And no, I don't buy the "Democrats want to be a socialist dictatorship" argument, it sounds like histrionics.)
Yokkiziikzekker
Well-known member
Why not? They certainly seem to be obsessed with Trump whom they accuse of being a dictator (when dictatorial practices by the US executive extend FAAAAR before Trump, lel). Both sides of the aisle have argued in favor of disarming the citizens, even Trump himself argued for taking the guns first and going through due process later.
The US has more firearms than people, and AR-15's can be mass produced in any machine shot in the nation. Even if you made the sale or purchase of guns a federal crime you would be looking at several decades before you even began to put a dent in the current firearms supply.
But the reason that Gun Control doesn't work in the cities is that the people who are using firearms for anti-social antics have a vested personal economic and security interest in having firearms. Those people are not going to allow the law to stand in the way of their survival or income.
If you want to solve gun related crime then the first step is to solve the War on Drugs. Especially if you want to solve Urban gun crime.
I'm well aware of the problems with the Imperial Presidency that the 20th Century saw develop. I am a little confused by this argument. Some Democrats accusing Trump of dictatorial behavior proves they're planning to impose a socialist dictatorship?
ReeeFallin
The Yankee Candle
Mostly they're just stolen. You don't tend to see large rings of straw purchasing because there's no profit in it. Nobody is going to pay full price for a gun just to sell it do some banger thug at a discount.
Not quite, the majority are bought from the black market, according to this DOJ report. At least on the user end, I'm not quite sure how those guns get to the black market, but given the relatively short time between pruchase and recovery for many guns, straw purchasing seems likely.
Sceptic
Critical Irrationalist
Where do you think criminals in those countries get their guns from?
Have you considered putting your glasses back on?
So why are you restricting explosives?
Step one, decriminalisation.
I support the full legalization of all drugs. I think drug use is idiotic but also think that the government has zero right to control what you choose to do with your own body.
Sceptic
Critical Irrationalist
Drug use should be treated as a medical issue rather than a legal issue. Although considering the US medical system, that would probably drive drug prices through the roof and encourage even more black market drug trade...
Francis Urquhart
Well-known member
Major sources for black market guns are weapons stolen from Army or Police arsenals (this is the major source of cartel weaponry with South American military personnel doing a lively trade in depot stores), and smuggled weaponry from the Far East or from Eastern European countries. Other sources, mostly of lower quality weapons, are the Middle East and Africa (big surprise there). There are (roughly) 550 million personal firearms (rifles and handguns) floating around which is enough to arm one person in twelve of the world's population. The moral question that faces us is how do we arm the other 11?
The second bit highlighted in green is highly dubiously sourced. Basically, nothing good or honest ever came out of Chicago. Organized criminal gangs these days tend to hold stocks of black market weaponry as "gun libraries" with their members borrowing a gun for a specific act and then returning it (and woe betide them if they lose it). It's not uncommon for recovered weapons to have been used in multiple unconnected crimes.
Maybe for the cartels or something, yes. But that's not how the US illegal weapons market seems to work. It might start to work that way if a ban comes through and the cartels see a chance for profit,but right now US gun violence uses US guns.
I guess at least some people still Buy American after all.
That doesn't seem like a rebuttal, though. I have heard something like that as far how gangs use guns, but this isn't about using them, it's about how they obtain them and how long they're usually on the street.
Francis Urquhart
Well-known member
Street gangs who are the most prolific users of illegal weapons buy cheap stuff smuggled in from abroad. Remember a straw purchase may be illegal and covert but the buyer is still paying full retail price. Smuggled weapons (which come in daily across the northern and southern borders and through the major ports) are a tenth if that of the price. All right, they may not be the best weapons around but they work. Sort of. Makarov PMs are common handguns and AKs are commonplace rifles. See somebody shooting a full-automatic AK-47 or AK-74 and its almost certain you're looking at a smuggled weapon.
Coming from Chicago is the refutation.
Nothing that comes from Chicago can be believed. Its either invented or selective.
The bit about gang gun libraries is interesting because it does show that these guns are around for a long time. When they are recovered, they have long histories, sometimes a decade or more. That tends to mitigate against them being obtained by straw purchase. Also, the presence of home-made guns is appreciable. In my day, we used to call them zip-guns and they were really crude. Now, with computer-controlled machining, they're a lot less so.
By the way, a surplus AK in "average condition" (ie pretty bad) costs between $4 and $40.00 at point of purchase (say Cambodia or Somalia). Eat your heart out
Coming from Chicago is the refutation.
Nothing that comes from Chicago can be believed. Its either invented or selective.The bit about gang gun libraries is interesting because it does show that these guns are around for a long time. When they are recovered, they have long histories, sometimes a decade or more. That tends to mitigate against them being obtained by straw purchase. Also, the presence of home-made guns is appreciable. In my day, we used to call them zip-guns and they were really crude. Now, with computer-controlled machining, they're a lot less so.
By the way, a surplus AK in "average condition" (ie pretty bad) costs between $4 and $40.00 at point of purchase (say Cambodia or Somalia). Eat your heart out
No, they don't. I posted a study that traced where they get weapons, they get them domestically. If you think otherwise, fine, but post some actually evidence that validates your claim.
No, they're not:
I see a bunch of 38 revolvers, a bunch of .40s and 9mms, mostly by hi point, Smith and Weston, and glock. I see exactly zero makarovs.
As far as I know, the last time anyone started shooting with a fully automatic anything was the North Hollywood, and those were legally purchased and illegally modified.
Sometimes they've been on the street for like a decade, yes. But per the actual source I posted, it's normal 3 or less.
Francis Urquhart
Well-known member
The problem is that you are using a very narrow source base. Chicago is a very dubious source for any kind of data since the agencies there sing the company song (ie Democrat) to the exclusion of anything else. However, Illinois is itself a highly anomalous case since most of the illegal weaponry there comes in by way of surrounding states. Also, we're not talking about a single city or even single state here but a nation-wide phenomena and that gives a very different picture. I'd suggest you look at FBI, BATFE and ICE data rather than that from a single , highly corrupt city.
A good example of what happens south of the border was the story of the Zetas. They were formed by the Mexican government as an elite anti-cartel strike force and given the best equipment the Government could by. The strike force looked at what they had, what they were being paid and promptly joined the cartels. Then they took them over. That's pretty much standard down there. The cartels use military-grade hardware which one cannot buy in US gun stores. The flow of weaponry across the southern border is south-to-north, not north-to-south.
By the way, look through the DoJ report you quote and you'll see it virtually discounts straw purchases as a source of criminal handguns (0.2 percent of the total). There is also a problem with its database in that it was constructed using criminals in prison. By definition, that's the unsuccessful ones. Also, criminals lie (hoodathunkit) and the information they part with is not reliable. Inplicitly the report authors recognize this when they state that successful criminals purchase guns legally because they have never been caught and thus don't have criminal records. Also, they are not in prison so their outlook is not included.
The real issue is that this whole problem of weapons access is enormously complex and very granular. What holds for one area doesn't for one only a few miles away. What hold for LCN doesn't hold for the Cartels or the Triads. What holds in a major west-coast port doesn't hold in a southern border crossing point. Your Chicago-based information (quite apart from its general untrustworthiness) is only one very small part of a much larger picture.
Nice picture of hand-guns though. I should get a poster of that and hang it up on my office wall.
Despite all the above strictures, thank you for your insights and viewpoints. They are very interesting.
A good example of what happens south of the border was the story of the Zetas. They were formed by the Mexican government as an elite anti-cartel strike force and given the best equipment the Government could by. The strike force looked at what they had, what they were being paid and promptly joined the cartels. Then they took them over. That's pretty much standard down there. The cartels use military-grade hardware which one cannot buy in US gun stores. The flow of weaponry across the southern border is south-to-north, not north-to-south.
By the way, look through the DoJ report you quote and you'll see it virtually discounts straw purchases as a source of criminal handguns (0.2 percent of the total). There is also a problem with its database in that it was constructed using criminals in prison. By definition, that's the unsuccessful ones. Also, criminals lie (hoodathunkit) and the information they part with is not reliable. Inplicitly the report authors recognize this when they state that successful criminals purchase guns legally because they have never been caught and thus don't have criminal records. Also, they are not in prison so their outlook is not included.
The real issue is that this whole problem of weapons access is enormously complex and very granular. What holds for one area doesn't for one only a few miles away. What hold for LCN doesn't hold for the Cartels or the Triads. What holds in a major west-coast port doesn't hold in a southern border crossing point. Your Chicago-based information (quite apart from its general untrustworthiness) is only one very small part of a much larger picture.
Nice picture of hand-guns though. I should get a poster of that and hang it up on my office wall.
Despite all the above strictures, thank you for your insights and viewpoints. They are very interesting.
I live in rural Illinois, trust when I say I have far more reasons to hate and distrust the Chicago city government and Cook county than you likely ever will. That said, I don't see why they'd lie here, and if they had manipulated this data, I imagine it would suggest that the primary weapon used in crimes was the AR-15 (probably with an ultra deadly barrel shroud modification and bayonet lug), not revolvers and hi points.
I've skimmed a few of thier reports in the past, as far as I've seen they don't have anything showing Chicago's data to be manipulated or dishonest.
As far as I know that's mostly true, but with limited weapon smuggling and it is a north to south flow....but for status symbol handguns and crap like that, the serious hardware that drives Mexico's gang problems is indeed a domestic issue.
Yes, that data is only based on the guys who got caught, but I don't see anything to suggest there's some hidden population of super crooks using secret criminal tricks to get guns in ways the cops can't fathom. And yes, criminals lie, everyone lies, but given they have no reason to do so here, why would they? Survey's are not totally reliable tools, but they're reliable within a margin of error.
Well thats fairly easy. For that just look at FBI murder statistics by weapon. You will find that AR-15s are less likely to end a life than household objects like hammers are.
Hell, isn't 5.56 considered inhuman to use for hunting human sized animals, because it's not lethal enough to kill them quickly and reliably? There's gotta be some reason most hunting rifles are chambered in .308 and 30-06, and based on the last time I was in a gun store, it's not price or availability of those rounds vs 5.56.
Kind of. Its not allowed for deer depending on the state but it is allowed for boar and coyote typically. Definitely a no on big game like Elk as far as I'm aware. There's some myth that 5.56 is high powered, but that's bs. Assault rifles fire intermediate cartridges which means it is between a pistol round and a full sized rifle round in power. The round type was designed by the germans in WWII because they found that the average combat engagement distance was typically under 200m, and full sized rifle rounds are high powered enough to reach out and be effective much further than that but weren't necessarily as good closer, and good luck trying to hit anything at 200m with a pistol. So the intermediate round was invented as a cartridge looking for a gun until the STG-44 came about. The round the AR-15 fires is also intermediate and optimized for combat, but optimized for combat just doesn't equal lethality.