Star Wars The Ahsoka Show

There's never been any place for military competence in Star Wars.

"Evacuate? In our moment of triumph? I think you overestimate their chances!"

If Tarkin had authorized even a single additional squadron of TIE Fighters to launch alongside Vader's personal fighters, the movie would have been over. As it is, 1x TIE Advanced + 8x TIE Fighter killed all but three out of thirty X-Wings and Y-Wings, which really should have refuted from the start the EU's repeated assertion that TIE Fighters are low quality. If anything, it's the vaunted Rebel fighters that are flying coffins-- bulkier and far less agile, dependent on defensive shields that demonstrably provide little to no actual protection.
In fairness Tarken was never presented as a military officer. He was clearly a politician and thus it made sense for him to make such a mistake. Even his title in the movie "Grand Moff" doesn't really sound military, it sounds more like a political title akin to "Grand Vizeer" or "Grand Duke".

Also what TWM mentioned...
 
In fairness Tarken was never presented as a military officer. He was clearly a politician and thus it made sense for him to make such a mistake. Even his title in the movie "Grand Moff" doesn't really sound military, it sounds more like a political title akin to "Grand Vizeer" or "Grand Duke".

Also what TWM mentioned...

Moff's are weird.

Tarkin was definitely military, having served in the Republic military back when.

Moff's are basically military governors and by ANH, there really isn't a "civilian government" of the Empire anymore. Tarkin is a military officer who also pulls politician duty.
 
Moff's are weird.

Tarkin was definitely military, having served in the Republic military back when.

Moff's are basically military governors and by ANH, there really isn't a "civilian government" of the Empire anymore. Tarkin is a military officer who also pulls politician duty.
That's based on more expanded lore. If we're JUST going by things as presented in ANH, there's nothing there to indicate Tarkin was a military man and his title is more in line with historic political titles than military ones.
 
As I understand it, the Death Star also had an escort fleet which he sent away. As a politician he likely wanted the sole glory of destroying the rebellion and didn’t want anyone else stealing his thunder.

Hence how in Rebels he hamstrings Thrawn from simply wiping out the Lothal Cell at the battle of Atollon because he wants prisoners to parade (granted Thrawn is a Grand Admiral who could have told a Moff where to shove it, but that’s another story).

Add that to his utter obsession with rule by fear and projecting fear, Tarkin was actually quite a damaging force to the Imperial Military. He wasn’t stupid by any means, but he operated off a broken worldview that wound up damning him and crippling the young Empire.
 
That's based on more expanded lore. If we're JUST going by things as presented in ANH, there's nothing there to indicate Tarkin was a military man and his title is more in line with historic political titles than military ones.

IIRC, Tarkin's title of "Grand Moff" is itself entirely expanded lore -- the only title he's addressed by in the actual film is when Leia calls him "Governor Tarkin", which matches his own statement that "The regional governors will now have direct control over their territories."

The Legends EU reinterpreted this with "Moffs" governing sectors and "Grand Moffs" governing oversectors, with the latter being defined as the largest and most important sectors rather than an oversight position over a group of sectors. Non-Moff governors were also mentioned as those appointed over a single planetary system rather than a full sector; it was never made explicitly clear whether a non-Moff planetary governor would generally have a sector Moff or oversector Grand Moff over him, or whether they were like Moffs and Grand Moffs in terms. of having fully independent authority over their assigned territory with rank merely reflecting the size and prestige of that territory.

Canon EU changed the titles to be hierarchical; the sector Moffs stood over individual planetary governors and were exactly twenty in number, while Grand Moffs stood over Moffs and were variable in number; oversectors were multi-sector priority zones established on an as-needed basis due to unrest or other concerns.
 
As I understand it, the Death Star also had an escort fleet which he sent away. As a politician he likely wanted the sole glory of destroying the rebellion and didn’t want anyone else stealing his thunder.

Didn't Tagge actually take send the fleet away, with himself on it? Basically as an FU to Tarkin.

Hence how in Rebels he hamstrings Thrawn from simply wiping out the Lothal Cell at the battle of Atollon because he wants prisoners to parade (granted Thrawn is a Grand Admiral who could have told a Moff where to shove it, but that's another story).

Always been alittle unclear on that. DOES a Grand Admiral outrank a Grand Moff? At best, they would seem to be of equal rank with different jurisdictions/division of responsibility.

I mean... Tarkin seemed to be in a position to give orders to Vader.
 
I'll point out that it was VADER in the TIE Advanced...who is easily equal to a squadron or two by himself.

Then there's the fact that every other pilot in that squadron was an elite veteran as well.

Nothing about the people flying the rebel fighters indicated they were extremely well trained or experienced.

If you include EU, yes. If taking the original movie as a standalone, no -- Vader just orders "get the crews to their fighters" with no specification that this is an elite unit, then tells two TIE Pilots to "come with me".

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Surface turbolasers shoot down one X-Wing, although the EU recontexualizes this was the turbolasers merely disoriented him and he crashed into the Death Star's surface. Turbolaser fire is both described and seen as generally ineffective against Rebel fighters, but does force them to maneuver evasively.

The six initial TIE fighters are seen to shoot down one X-Wing, and two TIE fighters are lost. This is not a favorable loss ratio, but we also see that no X-Wing ever outmaneuvers a TIE; both TIE kills came from a fellow X-Wing shooting a TIE off another X-Wing on a sloppy ad hoc basis. We also see that an X-Wing's deflector shields can withstand only two-three hits from a TIE's rapid-fire guns, not the dozens of hits that the later video games allowed (while also taking away the rapid-fire guns). Vader kills three Y-Wings in the first trench run, two X-Wings in the second trench run, and one X-Wing in the third trench run, with his wingmen killing one X-Wing and damaging a second.

But we visibly see that only two X-Wings and one Y-Wing return home after the Death Star is destroyed, indicating that the four remaining TIE Fighters killed *every single other remaining Rebel fighter* while Lord Vader handled the trench runs. This is also consistent with the fact that the *only* X-Wings with TIE kills were the two best Rebel pilots, Luke and Wedge, and these were also the *only* Rebel pilots who appear to have any concept of teamwork (Luke was proactively covering Biggs and shot a TIE off him; Wedge shot a TIE off Luke when he was asking Biggs for help).

Thirty X-Wings and Y-Wings minus three survivors, three on-screen Y--Wing deaths and six on-screen X-Wing deaths equals eighteen offscreen Rebel deaths scored by just four remaining TIE Fighters.

We can break this down a little more by examining the Special Edition's expanded version of the panning shot of the Rebel fighters approaching the X-Wing: there are five X-Wings and four Y-Wings in front, fifteen more X-Wings and four more Y-Wings in back. That's twenty-eight Rebel snubs, with Red Squadron having eight X-Wings counting off prior to casualties and the other twelve presumably belonging to a second squadron. The Imperial count of thirty indicates two more Rebel fighters weren't visible in the shot, suggesting an understrength Red Squadron of eight, understrength Gold Squadron of ten, and a second X-Wing squadron of full twelve.

So four TIEs were fighting eighteen X-Wings and seven Y-Wings *still including ace Wedge and Force-sensitive Luke* after Gold Squadron peeled three off for the first trench run, and it's clearly implied that they killed at least five of the Y-Wings by the time the first run completed since Red Leader was ordered to make the second run and "keep half your group back for the next run", clearly showing that there were not enough Y-Wings left alive at that point to make a trench run.

In short:

Red Squadron had eight X-Wings, of which six were killed and two survived (Luke and Wedge).

Gold Squadron had at least eight Y-Wings, of which all but one were killed.

The second X-Wing squadron had at least twelve X-Wings, and was completely wiped out.

Two additional Rebel fighters, *most likely* Gold Squadron Y-Wings but possibly 'extra' unnamed squadron X-Wings, were also killed.

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That's "straight ANH". If you add EU/Legends material, then the extra Rebel fighters were definitely Gold Squadron Y-Wings since the EU established that Rebel fighter squadrons ran twelve-strength, and the completely annihilated X-Wing group was Green Squadron.
 
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Didn't Tagge actually take send the fleet away, with himself on it? Basically as an FU to Tarkin.

All of that is EU. There's never any fleet with the Death Star at any point in ANH, save possibly the production-sketches showing the DS having a parasite complement that went all the way up to having several light cruisers on board.

Always been alittle unclear on that. DOES a Grand Admiral outrank a Grand Moff? At best, they would seem to be of equal rank with different jurisdictions/division of responsibility.

I mean... Tarkin seemed to be in a position to give orders to Vader.

Grand Moffs exercised both military and civil authority over their assigned territories, whereas Grand Admirals exercised purely military authority.
 
All of that is EU. There's never any fleet with the Death Star at any point in ANH, save possibly the production-sketches showing the DS having a parasite complement that went all the way up to having several light cruisers on board.

Oh I didn't catch that we were just talking about ANH.

Grand Moffs exercised both military and civil authority over their assigned territories, whereas Grand Admirals exercised purely military authority.

Yeah. which seems to me that Grand Moff's would have more authority than a Grand Admiral. If a Grand Admiral has his fleets in the the Grand Moff's Oversector... the Moff is on top there.
 
Oh I didn't catch that we were just talking about ANH.

People have been drawing distinctions between pure ANH, Legends,, and Disney Canon, so it's sort of a shifting point in the discussions.

Yeah. which seems to me that Grand Moff's would have more authority than a Grand Admiral. If a Grand Admiral has his fleets in the the Grand Moff's Oversector... the Moff is on top there.

Yes. The Grand Admirals were generally assigned a major independent fleet command, but a Grand Moff was both the civilian governor of an oversector *and* the military commander of that oversector's defense fleet.
 

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