Israel 🇮🇱 State of Israel Thread

[Marduk]

Israel can import its food, no? And life in Ma'ale Adummim or, for that matter, Pisgat Ze'ev is not that bad. I myself previously lived in Pisgat Ze'ev more than two decades ago back when I and my family still lived in Israel.

Living in an area that's surrounded by the West Bank in three directions is not necessarily a bad thing since you're probably not going to be travelling much to the West Bank, if at all, unless perhaps you want to visit the Dead Sea. Your main travelling will be within the Jewish Jerusalem metropolitan area and, of course, into other parts of Israel.

It can as long as it can... Think of silly logistical messes like the recent one though. The more reliant on imports you are, the bigger chance you will feel it.
Also an area like this can only seem fine as long as no one does anything stupid. The moment someone does something stupid, and you know that in this region it happens at least every few decades, it's going to be the bumper zone for whatever happens.

 

[WolfBear]

It can as long as it can... Think of silly logistical messes like the recent one though. The more reliant on imports you are, the bigger chance you will feel it.
Also an area like this can only seem fine as long as no one does anything stupid. The moment someone does something stupid, and you know that in this region it happens at least every few decades, it's going to be the bumper zone for whatever happens.

What recent logistical mess in regards to food? Do you have a link?

Yeah, fair point. For instance, IIRC, during the Second Intifada, Gilo was constantly shelled from Bethlehem next-door, thus necessitating the sending of Israeli troops into Bethlehem in order to stop this shelling. This was back in 2002, I think.

FWIW, I myself am a supporter of Israel's settlement project but only near Israel's borders. I don't think that Israel should build settlements deep within the West Bank and the ones who are already there, such as Ariel, might need to be evacuated if a future peace deal is to ever be made. I'd gladly give the Palestinians land swaps in exchange for this and even be willing to give the Palestinians greater territory in these land swaps to compensate them for the lesser land quality of the land that they are getting.

I do want to minimize the unfairness of the settlement enterprise to the Palestinians, and of course support a peace deal roughly along the lines of the 2003 Geneva Initiative, albeit slightly more in Israel's favor. I can't deny, though, that the huge settlement expansion in the Jerusalem area significantly enlarged and improved the Jewish Jerusalem metropolitan area. Before 1967, this area was too small, but now it's not, thankfully.

 

[WolfBear]

Speaking of Israeli settlements, what are the closest equivalents to Israeli settlements in the modern era (post-1800)? I can think of the pied-noir colonization of Algeria, but what else? Northern Ireland I don't think would really count since AFAIK the Protestants there generally had ancestors who moved there before 1800 rather than after 1800.

Any ideas?

 

[Marduk]

What recent logistical mess in regards to food? Do you have a link?

In fact Israel's own neighbors have food import problems.

The Russia-Ukraine War has Turned Egypt's Food Crisis into an Existential Threat to the Economy

With the outbreak of the Russia-Ukraine war on Feb. 24, 2022, Egypt's food security crisis now poses an existential threat to its economy. The fragile state of Egypt's food security stems from the agricultural sector's inability to produce enough cereal grains, especially wheat, and oilseeds to...

www.mei.edu

Lebanese rediscover local flavours as crisis hits food imports

Tanya Nasr grew up with the taste of her grandmother's tangy pomegranate molasses but had never made it herself until Lebanon's economic crisis and COVID-19 took her back to her home village in the mountains.

www.reuters.com

Yeah, fair point. For instance, IIRC, during the Second Intifada, Gilo was constantly shelled from Bethlehem next-door, thus necessitating the sending of Israeli troops into Bethlehem in order to stop this shelling. This was back in 2002, I think.

FWIW, I myself am a supporter of Israel's settlement project but only near Israel's borders. I don't think that Israel should build settlements deep within the West Bank and the ones who are already there, such as Ariel, might need to be evacuated if a future peace deal is to ever be made. I'd gladly give the Palestinians land swaps in exchange for this and even be willing to give the Palestinians greater territory in these land swaps to compensate them for the lesser land quality of the land that they are getting.

I do want to minimize the unfairness of the settlement enterprise to the Palestinians, and of course support a peace deal roughly along the lines of the 2003 Geneva Initiative, albeit slightly more in Israel's favor. I can't deny, though, that the huge settlement expansion in the Jerusalem area significantly enlarged and improved the Jewish Jerusalem metropolitan area. Before 1967, this area was too small, but now it's not, thankfully.

It's less about making deals, it's more about military preparation for when the deals don't pan out, and depth is an ingredient that makes defense much easier. The more distance you control you have between settlements with valuable infrastructure and lots of population that are hard to evacuate or abandon and the territories Palestinians can launch artillery strikes from, the easier it is to defend them. If the distance is in single digit kilometers, you have to contend with thousands upon thousands of very cheap mortar rounds.
If it's over ~15km, they need proper artillery, rocket or otherwise, dramatically reducing the number of projectiles to intercept. Nevermind a separation area for any more or less sneaky incursions.

Speaking of Israeli settlements, what are the closest equivalents to Israeli settlements in the modern era (post-1800)? I can think of the pied-noir colonization of Algeria, but what else? Northern Ireland I don't think would really count since AFAIK the Protestants there generally had ancestors who moved there before 1800 rather than after 1800.

Any ideas?

Algeria? Completely different in some core aspects.
Yugoslavia? Kashmir? Nagorno-Karabach?
You see the pattern...

 

[WolfBear]

Israel's Jewish percentage is gradually declining, but AFAIK this is largely due to a technicality since this problem can easily be solved with the adoption of patrilineal and bilinear descent for passing on Jewish status:

Redirect Notice

www.google.com

 

[GoldRanger]

Israel's Jewish percentage is gradually declining, but AFAIK this is largely due to a technicality since this problem can easily be solved with the adoption of patrilineal and bilinear descent for passing on Jewish status:

Redirect Notice

www.google.com

That's the most stupid thing I've heard in a while. On par with magically reducing rape statistics by redefining the meaning of rape. The problem is not actually going anywhere.

 

[Morphic Tide]

That's the most stupid thing I've heard in a while. On par with magically reducing rape statistics by redefining the meaning of rape. The problem is not actually going anywhere.

The purpose of matrilineal-only passage of status is that it's inarguable proof of heritage, but with modern genetic testing we've become able to verify paternity to the same degree, as well as the overall ethnic composition. It's an extremely whack insistence on tradition-for-its-own-sake to reject the notion of permitting patrilineal Jewish status provided an actual paternity test out of hand.

At the very least let up on the conversion strictness for this!

 

[Sergeant Foley]

I'm just waiting for Israel to hit its fuck it moment where they just kick the Palastinians out of the country in mass.

Any other country would have already done so by now.

It'll happen sooner or later

 

[WolfBear]

The purpose of matrilineal-only passage of status is that it's inarguable proof of heritage, but with modern genetic testing we've become able to verify paternity to the same degree, as well as the overall ethnic composition. It's an extremely whack insistence on tradition-for-its-own-sake to reject the notion of permitting patrilineal Jewish status provided an actual paternity test out of hand.

At the very least let up on the conversion strictness for this!

Yep, that's the problem. There simply isn't any reason to keep the matrilineal descent rule in the present-day. You could claim that patrilineal descent would discourage female non-Jewish partners of Jews to convert to Judaism, but matrilineal descent has the exact same effect in regards to male non-Jewish partners of Jews right now.

 

[WolfBear]

I'm just waiting for Israel to hit its fuck it moment where they just kick the Palastinians out of the country in mass.

Any other country would have already done so by now.

If Israel wanted to do this, its best time was back in 1948-1949 by aiming to prolong the war and conquer the entire West Bank or at least as much of it as possible. Nowadays, if Israel tries this, it would get condemned as much, if not even more, as Russia would for invading Ukraine, and quite rightfully so since doing this would be a huge crime and atrocity.

 

[GoldRanger]

The purpose of matrilineal-only passage of status is that it's inarguable proof of heritage, but with modern genetic testing we've become able to verify paternity to the same degree, as well as the overall ethnic composition. It's an extremely whack insistence on tradition-for-its-own-sake to reject the notion of permitting patrilineal Jewish status provided an actual paternity test out of hand.

At the very least let up on the conversion strictness for this!

It's religious law. It's hardcoded into the Jewish faith, not something you can just throw away at will.

 

[King Arts]

It's religious law. It's hardcoded into the Jewish faith, not something you can just throw away at will.

Isn't that subject to debate? I mean the Bible itself records all genealogies patrilineal, also Karites which are a sect of Jews also don't hold to the Talmud and Matrilineal descent.

 

[GoldRanger]

Isn't that subject to debate? I mean the Bible itself records all genealogies patrilineal, also Karites which are a sect of Jews also don't hold to the Talmud and Matrilineal descent.

Not that I'm aware of. It's a very basic tenet of modern Judaism as far as I'm aware.

 

[WolfBear]

It's religious law. It's hardcoded into the Jewish faith, not something you can just throw away at will.

Halakha was changed on various other things, such as homosexuality, allowing women into minyans, allowing women rabbis, et cetera.

 

[WolfBear]

Isn't that subject to debate? I mean the Bible itself records all genealogies patrilineal, also Karites which are a sect of Jews also don't hold to the Talmud and Matrilineal descent.

There's also the fact that some Jews believe that halakha can change over time.

 

[King Arts]

Not that I'm aware of. It's a very basic tenet of modern Judaism as far as I'm aware.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karaite_Judaism

 

[WolfBear]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karaite_Judaism

Yep, they recognize patrilineal descent and only patrilineal descent. They reject the Mishnah and instead only follow the Torah, I think. The Jewish equivalent of Quranists for Muslims:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quranism#:~:text=Quranists%20believe%20that%20God's%20message,to%20the%20hadith%20and%20sunnah

 

[GoldRanger]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karaite_Judaism

That's a small sect, not mainstream Judaism.

 

[WolfBear]

That's a small sect, not mainstream Judaism.

US Reform Judaism is pretty mainstream, no? Over a million members, IIRC.

 

[Cherico]

US Reform Judaism is pretty mainstream, no? Over a million members, IIRC.

Two Jews three opinions, getting us to agree on anything is like herding cats.