Movies Starship Troopers: The bugs did nothing wrong

[Agent23]

Since we have gone into the "muh evil fascist SST federation is evil" here is Arch's excellent response:



To sum if up, is the Federation evil and/or Fascist.

Answer: NO!!!!

 

[edgeworthy]

First, I could use a good bridge. I'll put tolls on it. Anybody know where I can hire a troll?


Second, what's your definition of Socialism?

I usually go by the Oxford English Dictionary definition.
Which one of its numerous sub-dictionaries helpfully expands too ...

... a set of political and economic theories based on the belief that everyone has an equal right to a share of a country's wealth and that the government should own and control the main industries

This does not necessarily include anything to do with Social Welfare or the Bismarckian idea of State Socialism.
(Or preclude state control of matters of national security)

The OED also has a definition of Fascism, which I am well aware that some of our members will take umbrage with.
(However; If you want to argue with the idea of the OED being wrong about what words mean in English! Then at a minimum this falls into the concept of an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary evidence?)

 

[Blasterbot]

Yeah I wouldn't agree with that definition of Fascism at all.

An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.

The term Fascism was first used of the totalitarian right-wing nationalist regime of Mussolini in Italy (1922–43), and the regimes of the Nazis in Germany and Franco in Spain were also Fascist. Fascism tends to include a belief in the supremacy of one national or ethnic group, a contempt for democracy, an insistence on obedience to a powerful leader, and a strong demagogic approach.

It ignores all policy. it focuses mostly just on having a demagogue dictator leading an authoritarian country. The definition basically just means that if a populist strong man comes into power that is fascism. that isn't accurate. it is farcical. it makes me think that other definitions in the oxford dictionary aren't to be trusted either if they are willing to twist the definition of a word like fascism.

jesus fucking christ this is depressing. people literally do not understand what fascism is any more. no wonder the Dems can just label anything fascist. it doesn't mean anything to them. it is just bad guy is bad guy who disagrees with me. there is no concept of all for the state. nothing outside the state. nothing against the state. no wonder they can unironically have state and private entities work together to crush the rights of citizens and call their opponents fascist.

"The fascists of the future will call themselves anti-fascists."

I would go so far as to say that that definition of fascism is as bad or worse than the someone's definition of communism being when the government does something.

 

[Simonbob]

I usually go by the Oxford English Dictionary definition.
Which one of its numerous sub-dictionaries helpfully expands too ...

This does not necessarily include anything to do with Social Welfare or the Bismarckian idea of State Socialism.
(Or preclude state control of matters of national security)

The whole "equal share of a nations wealth" usually leads to welfare, the rich giving to the poor. "Balancing the scales", and all that shit.

It doesn't really help, the reason why somebody's poor or rich isn't so easily fixed.





State ownership of stuff, I haven't seen that as a part of Socialism before. That's where Communism comes in.


I'm not going to argue the point, though. It's hardly out of chariter for that sort of govenment.

 

[Agent23]

The whole "equal share of a nations wealth" usually leads to welfare, the rich giving to the poor. "Balancing the scales", and all that shit.

It leads to a huge leftoid bureaucracy that has to do the redistribution, too.

It doesn't really help, the reason why somebody's poor or rich isn't so easily fixed.

Yeah, some are personal, others are basically government fucking up stuff it was already doing.
Like education, law enforcement, keeping the nuclear family together.
With the welfare bureaucracy prioritizing it's own growth and survival before fixing the problems it just manages.

 

[stephen the barbarian]

Second, what's your definition of Socialism?

the economic policies, social policies, or the religion?

 

[Simonbob]

the economic policies, social policies, or the religion?

While it was more aimed at Edgeworthy, I'll bite.

Yes.

 

[Navarro]

You see this is where your argument really loses me. If you just wanted to say "Director's intent was the Feds were the bad guys", fine. I could at least understand that. I wouldn't agree that's the only interpretation, again death of the author, but that would be internally consistent. But you seem to want to have your cake and eat it too.

Like if you argued the "verse" of Starship Troopers was just a propaganda movie that painted the humans as good guys to justify the out of universe war, that would be fine. Or if you wanted to point out inconsistencies with the world building or plot leading to conclusions not originally intended that would also be fine. But you want to only selectively analysis the film when it suits your purposes just like you flip-flop between hard minimalist to rampant speculation based entirely what suits your argument in that moment.

Not to mention that if the whole movie is propaganda for a fascist state, it's "propaganda" that makes the Leader, the State (the two overarching ideals of fascism) and the military look incompetent and ineffectual.

 

[Poe]

I am just objectively right here. But you are the one who is shouting with fingers in your ears because you are a socialist and you don't like the idea of your favorite ideology being outed as a genocidal crackpot theory that it really is.

But the fact remains that Nazis were socialist in their name, beliefs, program, political system, everything.

Look at the Communist Manifesto and try to find one thing Nazis didn't do. I dare you.

Nazis did all of the above.

They confiscated private property, established central state control of the economy, hell, they even had the Five Year Plans!

I am the farthest thing from a socialist, I am just not going to entertain idiots claiming 2 + 2 = 5 (because 4 + 1 = 5!) You are wrong, and your schizo bullshit doesn't change that. Nothing you can say here makes you right, no amount of arguing or trying to skew terms or "prove" things with bable, because Nazism is defined as specifically not socialist by everyone engaging with the topic in an academic nature.

That you call me a socialist is hilarious, you have nothing to stand on but past circle jerks with other idiots so when met with someone who isn't going to just nod and pretend you're deep, and have surely "owned" socialists by proving this, your brain breaks down and call me, of all people, a socialist. Grow up and stop trying to change terms that have been established as one thing for nearly a century. You haven't discovered something novel you are just annoying.

 

[Aldarion]

I am the farthest thing from a socialist, I am just not going to entertain idiots claiming 2 + 2 = 5 (because 4 + 1 = 5!) You are wrong, and your schizo bullshit doesn't change that. Nothing you can say here makes you right, no amount of arguing or trying to skew terms or "prove" things with babel, because Nazism is defined as specifically not socialist by everyone engaging with the topic in an academic nature.

"Everyone engaging with the topic in an academic nature" being who exactly? And even if that is true, show me the evidence. If you are so well-read in academics as to make that claim, you should have no issue doing that, right?

But I doubt you will - you certainly are ignorant enough to be a socialist.

 

[Poe]

"Everyone engaging with the topic in an academic nature" being who exactly? And even if that is true, show me the evidence. If you are so well-read in academics as to make that claim, you should have no issue doing that, right?

But I doubt you will - you certainly are ignorant enough to be a socialist.

The burden of proof is on you, as I said you are going against the grain here and defining Nazis as something no one else outside of fringe, non-academic, circles define them as. If I state the moon is made of cheese it isn't on you to list out every astronomer and physicist who understands it to not be, it's up to me to not make such an idiotic claim to begin with.

 

[Aldarion]

The burden of proof is on you, as I said you are going against the grain here and defining Nazis as something no one else outside of fringe, non-academic, circles define them as. If I state the moon is made of cheese it isn't on you to list out every astronomer and physicist who understands it to not be, it's up to me to not make such an idiotic claim to begin with.

But in this case, moon really is made of cheese. And worse, it only takes one look by naked eye to confirm it.

FFS, if you compare Nazi and Soviet economy, there is no difference:

https://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/64262/sovietnazieconom00temi.pdf

 

[Navarro]

If anything, the Federation are anti-heroes, and given what was revealed about the Bugs in the third film (their motivations), the Bugs are basically selfish, Lawful Evil antagonists.

We get their motive in the second movie - human individuality disgusts the hivemind. The bugs aren't even selfishly grabbing onto planets both they and humans can live on, they're just genocidal monsters.

 

[edgeworthy]

"Everyone engaging with the topic in an academic nature" being who exactly? And even if that is true, show me the evidence. If you are so well-read in academics as to make that claim, you should have no issue doing that, right?

But I doubt you will - you certainly are ignorant enough to be a socialist.

Well I would start with:

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

—Martin Niemöller

Then:
Adam Tooze, The Wages of Destruction: The Making and Breaking of the Nazi Economy (2008)
Turner, Henry A. (1985). German Big Business and the Rise of Hitler. Oxford University Press.
Schweitzer, Arthur (1964). Big Business in the Third Reich. Bloomington: Indiana University Press

And with a direct link:
The Role of Private Property in the Nazi Economy
Were the Nazis socialists? No, not in any meaningful way.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

We get their motive in the second movie - human individuality disgusts the hivemind. The bugs aren't even selfishly grabbing onto planets both they and humans can live on, they're just genocidal monsters.

That has nothing to do with the first movie, in 1997 there is none of that.

 

[Zachowon]

That has nothing to do with the first movie, in 1997 there is none of that.

So...explain how the Federation with its ability to argue differing view points, elections, and a leader who takes fucking responsibility and steps down when they fuck up is the bad guy and fascist

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

So...explain how the Federation with its ability to argue differing view points, elections, and a leader who takes fucking responsibility and steps down when they fuck up is the bad guy and fascist

The Sky Marshal isn't the leader of the Federation, it's lead by a shadowy cabal that elects Sky Marshals.

 

[King Arts]

The Sky Marshal isn't the leader of the Federation, it's lead by a shadowy cabal that elects Sky Marshals.

lol no all citizens vote for the sky marshal he is the president.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

lol no all citizens vote for the sky marshal he is the president.

Except he absolutely is not, lmao. He's a military leader like a secretary of defense, not a political leader.

 

[Zachowon]

The Sky Marshal isn't the leader of the Federation, it's lead by a shadowy cabal that elects Sky Marshals.

Again. Where is this said? This is a Federation that has both civilians and citizens of its state. You can have people who vote and those who don't.
But you never answered my question.
What about the Federation makes them fascist?

Except he absolutely is not, lmao. He's a military leader like a secretary of defense, not a political leader.

Where is this said?