Starfleet vs UNSC Ground Troops

Battlegrinder

Someday we will win, no matter what it takes.
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Obozny
I mostly grew offended at Battlegrinder deciding he personally was the arbiter of everything and got to decide what was and was not canon, with AR-558 put as the holy of holies and everything else that wasn't present there from grenades to backpacks got to be discounted even if we see them on-set, and everything else gets to be chosen and curated by him so that the weakest possibly showing against his favored faction, with even canon feats discounted on the grounds that "they didn't use it at AR-558."

I think that's a very uncharitable reading of my argument, which, granted, does cycle back to AR-558 frequently, but it does so for good reason. AR-558 is our best view of how federation ground troop operate, and the episode gives us a good view of the entire engagement, as opposed to, say, Nor the Battle where we only see a few a rear areas and the aftermath of one vaguely described skirmish. If there was a time where starfleet was going to break out this that gizmo that's been vaguely alluded to on TNG or something, this would be it, and they not only do not do so, they act very much like Starfleet personal do in other engagements, squeezing off single shots from phaser rifles while taking cover behind rocks that, according some arguements here, might as well be cardboard (but is instead treated and used as very solid cover).

If this was, say, stargate, where SGC personnel are visibly armed with hand grenades and use them against thier enemies, you would be entirely right to argue against me if I was insane enough to argue that because we never see one used in the big battle in "Heroes", therefore grenades are only used for scouting missions and not full scale battle, because that would be a transparent effort to stack the deck against stargate.

That is not the case in star trek, where you darn well know anti-personnel grenades are never used by the federation (or the Cardassians, the Romulans, the breen, the Dominion, the Romulans, the hirogen, the borg, the kazon, the bajorians, or anyone else I can recall), and yet people insist on trying clsim this time, the feds will break out the nades they've otherwise refused to employ, because star trek debates invariably devolve into stacking the deck for the federation.

You* can't just have the grenade launcher type weapon worf had, or argue that if the klingons had anti-personnel mortars then starfleet should logically have a similar weapon, and that maybe the one Nor the battle would be on par with a real mortar and real world filming limits resulted in an implausibly weak weapon. You always go for broke and and insist they must have the one from Arena which is nuclear in yield (despite it's observed effects and the overall context being totally inconsistent with such a yield, and despite the gorn, a peer power, having much less effective weapons), and that everyone must have a bunch of hand grenades as well. You can't just argue phasers are a very likely one hit kill against enemy infantry and a bit more, it's gotta be the TM phasers that can vaporize battle tanks in fractions of a second, a claim you make with a straight face in the full knowledge that most ST firefights involve people ducking behind rock and barrels and packing crates, because we're just supposed to believe the federation was like "hey, this barrel that were going to use to store replicator feedstock or whatever? We'll need built to take damage that would cripple a main battle tank several times over".

And I'm the one stacking the deck here, because I suggest the people that usually take a few seconds to vaporize a chuck of rock probably cannot melt a tank in a fraction of that time?


*not you personally, I mean this in a generic sense

He declares that you can't dismiss canon in one post and then dismisses it as "can't be true or they would have used it on AR-558" in the next.

That's misrepresenting my argument. My issue with wide beam kill is not that if it existed, it should have been used at AR-558. My issue with wide beam kill is that if it existed, it should have been used in nearly every firefight in the entire series.

He literally claimed the Federation is incapable of CAS with a video of a shuttle providing close air support.

There is a different between shooting at stuff from a plane, and CAS.
 

Battlegrinder

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On another note I wonder why Starfleet in this scenario wants the Forerunner facilities so badly that its willing to send in waves of redshirts to take them if need be. I mean I get why the UNSC would but they have experience with why Forerunner facilities are something you have to secure to ensure no flood is there

That's not the case, the flood are not present in forerunner facilities save a tiny, tiny handful. The only time they've shown up outside a halo ring was halo wars 1 (and I think 2 but it's been a while) and there wasn't really a plausible reason for thier appearance in wars, it was pretty much the devs going "well, it's halo, Halo's gotta have the flood in it right?".

The UNSC's consistent justification for capturing forerunner facilities has been self interest and a need to access forerunner technology in order to compete with other factions, not a fear of the flood.

The Feddies believe they can control the Flood, and Section 31 is going to use them in targeted releases against the enemies of the Federation.

The federation might be naive enough to think the flood can be reasoned with, but attempting to control them isn't thier style (and should a conflict break out, the federation is ideally suited to actually win it, phasers would be a fantastic weapon against the flood).

Section 31 doesn't go around engaging in genocidal biowarfare as a routine thing, for the most part they're spies and occasionally assassinations. The anti-founder plague was unusual for them, both because of how uniquely vulnerable the founders were and in how uniquely justifiable using such a weapon would be (hitting, say, the Cardassians with such a weapon would be troubling, as most Cardassians are innocent and section 31 might have a hard time justifying such a project. The founders are, as far as the show said, all guilty and all culpable for the dominion's various atrocities).
 

Battlegrinder

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Who does Section 31 have to justify anything to?

First of all, themselves. "I had to blackmail this corrupt Romulan senator for the good of the federation" is not something that most people will lose sleep over. "I had to create a super-plague that would run rampant, killing everyone including innocents, children, civilians not involved in whatever the issue was, etc, For The Good of The Federation".......that one's going to be haunting, and a lot of people would balk at it. A lot of people including section 31, as for all thier pretenses about making the "hard choices that starfleet isn't willing to make" and so on, section 31 is still composed of people that grew up in federation society and held federation morals. Yes, they think sometimes those morals have to be bent a bit for the greater good, but they still actually have a sense of moral right and wrong.

Secondly, section 31 had to convince whoever actually made the plague, and most likely several someones. Intelligence agencies generally don't have top flight biowarfare labs that can cook up exotic plagues whenever they need, that's a very rare, very specialized skillset that they would have needed to bring in a team of outsiders to work on, and they have to convince those people to actually do it. And it's not very likely that you'll just stumble onto a gang of amazingly skilled virologists who are also total sociopaths and don't care at all about the moral implications of thier work (and if you do find such a team it's a bad idea to work with them). So they actually need to sell this idea to them.
 

ShadowArxxy

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Comrade
I think that's a very uncharitable reading of my argument, which, granted, does cycle back to AR-558 frequently, but it does so for good reason. AR-558 is our best view of how federation ground troop operate, and the episode gives us a good view of the entire engagement, as opposed to, say, Nor the Battle where we only see a few a rear areas and the aftermath of one vaguely described skirmish. If there was a time where starfleet was going to break out this that gizmo that's been vaguely alluded to on TNG or something, this would be it, and they not only do not do so, they act very much like Starfleet personal do in other engagements, squeezing off single shots from phaser rifles while taking cover behind rocks that, according some arguements here, might as well be cardboard (but is instead treated and used as very solid cover).

This is an excellent point. AR-558 is pretty much the only time we see the Federation in a situation where they have been in a *sustained* ground engagement *and* have an opportunity to bring in *all* the reinforcements and supplies they can wish for. I would absolutely agree that given those circumstances, what you see at AR-558 is *exactly* what you should expect to see from front-line Federation in normal circumstances. Moreover, anything that they theoretically have or "should" have (for non-fanboy values of should) above what's seen in this battle is something that should be classed as "hypothetical capability" or "reserves that take time and special authorization to activate", not something they have in regular service.
 
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Battlegrinder

Someday we will win, no matter what it takes.
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Obozny
Well, it's a main part of the episode's plot that they did not actually have the time or ability to send in all the reinforcements they wanted, but otherwise yes.
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
Well, it's a main part of the episode's plot that they did not actually have the time or ability to send in all the reinforcements they wanted, but otherwise yes.

They didn't have time to send a dedicated supply ship stuffed with troops, true, but they had time for a starship supply run and the starship clearly had sufficient time to replicate anything they asked for on the way.
 

bintananth

behind a desk
They didn't have time to send a dedicated supply ship stuffed with troops, true, but they had time for a starship supply run and the starship clearly had sufficient time to replicate anything they asked for on the way.
It's Starfleet. Starfleet runs on the rule of plot, technobabble, and nonsensoleum.

In one DS9 episode Ezri Dax had to use what was basically an old-fashioned rifle equipped with really advanced senors and and a transporter to shoot someone.
 

stephen the barbarian

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American 90mm flak guns, not German eighty-eights.
i'm willing to shrug my shoulders at the caliber of the guns, however given the level of paranoia the allies had otl when dealing with the vt fuse i'm doubtful that they'd allow it to be reversed ittl. the idea of Vosk giving them the tech would have merit if von-whatshisname hadn't been so pissy about Vosk not giving them useful tech.

so, if you have more data on the matter then i'm willing to look at it, but i haven't changed my position.
 

ShadowArxxy

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Comrade
I'm willing to shrug my shoulders at the caliber of the guns, however given the level of paranoia the allies had otl when dealing with the vt fuse i'm doubtful that they'd allow it to be reversed ittl. the idea of Vosk giving them the tech would have merit if von-whatshisname hadn't been so pissy about Vosk not giving them useful tech.

The caliber of the guns matters because the 90mm flak's standard round is VT-fused.
 

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