Starfleet vs UNSC Ground Troops

[The Original Sixth]

Scenario: The UNSC and the UFP both discover a neutral planet containing Forerunner relics. Both governments send a ship to take the planet for their respective governments. The planet is currently uninhabited and Forerunner defenses are decayed to the point of being inoperable. For diplomatic and pragmatic reasons, both ships cannot engage in a space battle or in orbital strikes. They can however, eagerly engage in a ground battle. The UFP is vaguely familiar with Forerunner technology, able to understand its basic functions. The UNSC is more familiar, as they were around the Battle of Reach. Both sides are familiar with the other's rough technological power, but they have never fought a ground battle with each other before nor are they familiar with their full capabilities.

Motivations: The UNSC believes that the technology on the planet can turn the tide in the fight against the Covenant. The UFP believes that the technology can in turn be used to help them in their battle against the Dominion. Both sides do not trust the other, believing that they'll sell them out to their enemies for tech transfers and assistance in their respective wars.

Resources: The UNSC has sent the refitted Halcyon in the same way as the Pillar of Autumn and a Phoenix Class Troop Transport (similar to Spirit of Fire). There is obviously no Master Chief, but the Phoenix does contain one squad of Spartan IIs. They also have the standard 800 Marines and 400 ODSTs for the Halcyon and 6,000 Marines and 1,000 ODST for the Phoenix Troop Transport. The UFP has sent an Akira Class ship containing 1,800* troops and a Galaxy Class Ship containing 6,000* for 7,800 troops. Both sides will be geared for a ground war, having expected it.

Battlespace: Standard planet, with the focus being an area that looks much like the Euro-Asian Landmass in geography, with tech and infrastructure in roughly the same areas as the Middle East. For the purpose of this discussion, the Middle East as defined is Egypt, Israel, Syria, Lebanon, Turkey, Iraq, Afghanistan, Jordan, Iran, Pakistan, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Qatar, UAE, Yemen, Oman, and Cyprus. Each of these "states" have important Forerunner facilities that make them desirable to all sides. To win the planet, one side needs to control the "capital" of all these states.



*The GCS's troop count is based upon Yesterday's Enterprise, where the Enterprise D was said to carry 6,000 troops. The Akira's numbers are based upon the fact that the GCS class can evacuate up to 15,000 people, but carries only 6,000 troops. (40% of that capacity) The Akira's evacuation capacity is based upon its figures in the DS9 TM.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

Federation gets hosed. They don't understand ground operations. It's apparent in EVERYTHING they've shown us. At least not above tactical level engagements. UNSC gets what they want, and the UFP gets LOTS of casualties.

NOTE: the ONLY tactical level engagements I've ever seen the Federation win were when "Heroes" were present.

 

[The Original Sixth]

Federation gets hosed. They don't understand ground operations. It's apparent in EVERYTHING they've shown us. At least not above tactical level engagements. UNSC gets what they want, and the UFP gets LOTS of casualties.

NOTE: the ONLY tactical level engagements I've ever seen the Federation win were when "Heroes" were present.

I don't think that will be the case. The UFP will most probably hold greater combat situational awareness and mobility than the UNSC could ever pray for. Just for the GCS, all six transporters can move 700 people per hour. And that's without using the Cargo Bays. The Akira probably has a similar, if inferior transporter capacity. The UNSC still has to move its people around with pelicans, warthogs, tanks, ect over long distances. That requires a large amount of logistics for food, fuel, and other supplies. Starfleet just needs to beam it down, with next to zero danger of interception or supply constraints.

EDIT: Also, Starfleet only winning when heroes are present is more of a function of story, not of capability. By all comparisons, the UNSC tends to lose most engagements against the Covenant, even with Heroes present. So let's not fall into that trap.

 

[Airedale260]

What kinds of forces do each side actually have? Are we talking light infantry only? Mechanized/armored forces? Air support?

I mean, you are effectively asking "15,000 U.S. soldiers vs 15,000 Russian soldiers: Who wins?" The reality is that it very much depends. "Just a bunch of dudes with rifles and their own gear" is a VERY different thing from "The U.S. 1st Cavalry Division vs the 76th Guard Air Assault Division."

Can you clarify on what assets they actually have?

 

[The Whispering Monk]

USNC normally deploys with the full panoply or vehicles and support, and their transports carry organic vehicles with the troops.

I have never seen the UFP deploy with armor or artillery.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

USNC normally deploys with the full panoply or vehicles and support, and their transports carry organic vehicles with the troops.

I have never seen the UFP deploy with armor or artillery.

Starfleet is too peace loving for its own good. They don't even have a dedicated Marine Corps. That aside, given the pre-eminence of star ships, the art of ground warfare seems somewhat lost to them.

 

[The Original Sixth]

What kinds of forces do each side actually have? Are we talking light infantry only? Mechanized/armored forces? Air support?

I mean, you are effectively asking "15,000 U.S. soldiers vs 15,000 Russian soldiers: Who wins?" The reality is that it very much depends. "Just a bunch of dudes with rifles and their own gear" is a VERY different thing from "The U.S. 1st Cavalry Division vs the 76th Guard Air Assault Division."

Can you clarify on what assets they actually have?

Whatever they would conceivably deploy to a war zone? The UNSC is pretty easily spelled out, to be honest. We know they use various sidearms, rocket launchers, grenades, and even a few energy weapons. We also know they have mechanized units, with both of those being pretty spelled out for this:

https://www.halopedia.org/UNSC_Spirit_of_Fire

UNSC Pillar of Autumn

UNSC Pillar of Autumn UNSC Pillar of Autumn (HCS: C-709) was a Halcyon-class light cruiser in the UNSC Navy. It was informally referred to as the Autumn, and its name abbreviated to "PoA." The motto for the ship was Ad Arcendam Hostium Prior to the Fall of Reach, Pillar of Autumn was selected to...

halo.fandom.com

The UFP is a bit more ambiguous, but we can extrapolate from what we do know.

Most ground troops seem to carry a phaser rifle, a phaser pistol, a tricorder, and a com badge. They also use thicker uniforms with some padding, similar to what the Cardassians, Remans, and Klingons use. We also know that in Insurrection, the Enterprise E carried:

"WORF: Seven metric tons of ultritium explosives, eight tetryon pulse launchers, ten isomagnetic disintegrators."

And this was really what Picard was trying to smuggle to the surface without being caught, not the entire limit of what the ship carries. Ultritium is supposed to be a very powerful explosive. We don't know what the tetryon pulse launchers look like, but we did see the isomagnetic disintegrator:




According to secondary sources, it's supposed to disrupt electromagnetic fields, but when used on lifeforms, can cause stunning or at a higher setting, disintegration. In the movie, it has some explosive effects, able to take out about three enemies in one hit. So at worst, it's effectively a grenade launcher.

There are also photon grenades, which the Enterprise D had in ready stock in TNG's Legacy:

ISHARA: Don't underestimate them, Commander. They'll be ready for that. I've seen them use this kind of strategy before. I know it looks isolated and easily accessible, but my guess is they have hundreds of men on the levels above and below just waiting for you to make your move.
WORF: We will need a diversion.
LAFORGE: Transport a couple of photon grenades into the adjoining chamber. At minimum intensity it wouldn't kill anybody, but it would shake them up a bit.

A couple of these grenades (2-3?) beamed into an adjoining chamber on the lowest possible setting would be enough to shake up some guys in an adjoining chamber. There is also the implication that had they been set to a higher level, someone could have been hurt. To what level, we don't know.

There was also the small blue bombs used in TOS, along with a man-potable mortar launcher that are commonly identified as photon grenades. They had the same effect as a small tactical nuke. And while overkill, could certainly be used as effective weapons against a press by the UNSC.

We also know that these were planned to be given out to Starfleet in Homefront:

LEYTON: Mister President, we can use the Lakota's transporters and communications system to mobilise every Starfleet officer on Earth in less than twelve hours. We've been preparing for something like this for a long time. We have stockpiles of phaser rifles, personal forcefields, photon grenades, enough to equip an entire army. I can start getting men on the streets immediately.

It's not clear on what they mean by personal forcefields. We know that Worf rigged up a low powered one in TNG, but it may be referring to the ones used in Insurrection, used by the Enterprise E crew. Of course it is most probably referring to this, used by Picard and his team in TNG. It was the size of a hockey puck and could provide a forcefield that covered a corridor opening.

It was supposed to keep the Cardassians pursuing them off their backs, so it must have some utility against physical mass and can probably resist a fair amount of low level phaser fire.

We also know about a forcefield that was deployed by the Duras sisters for the benefit of their scientist-terrorist friend Soran, which he claimed to be about 50 gigawatts. That's pretty generous, given that the TNG TM puts the GCS's shield generators at 2,688 MWs for the entire grid during Alert Mode, but it fits well if we assume that Soran meant that it has a max capacity of 50 GWs. That works pretty well, seeing as the GCS shield generators can each reach 473 GWs for 170 milliseconds. Or 473 megajoules per millisecond for a GCS shield generator and 50 megajoules per second for Soran's camp shield.

Regardless, it means that any Starfleet ground base is going to be pretty hard to assault. You'd need several tanks just to try and penetrate the shield, let alone overwhelm its heat sinks and get in. A larger base camp will have a larger shield capacity too.

There's also the shuttles that the GCS and Akira will be able to employ. A Type9 Shuttle in Voyager was able to effortlessly blast apart a semi with one of its twin phaser banks.

 

[The Original Sixth]

USNC normally deploys with the full panoply or vehicles and support, and their transports carry organic vehicles with the troops.

I have never seen the UFP deploy with armor or artillery.

Given how easy anti-gravity tech is in Star Trek, that's no big deal. We've seen one wheeled vehicle and it was designed to operate in areas where most shuttles found to be difficult. Shuttlepods are not well armed, but shuttles with Type V phasers should make quick work of most enemy craft. Actual UFP fighters will pretty much dominate the skies.

As for artillery, we haven't seen much, save for a mortar launcher in TOS. However, we do know that the Klingons deployed artillery against the UFP when they assaulted one of their colonies in DS9, in Nor the Battle for the Strong.

 

[The Original Sixth]

Starfleet is too peace loving for its own good. They don't even have a dedicated Marine Corps. That aside, given the pre-eminence of star ships, the art of ground warfare seems somewhat lost to them.

No, but they do have commandos. Which given the more complicated supply chain issue the UNSC is going to have to deal with, are going to be a great help. Like sabotage, destroying supplies, or even stealing them with transporter boosters.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

Actual UFP fighters will pretty much dominate the skies.

Considering the UNSC has been facing fighter forces that will, likely, have been peer competitors of star fleet, I don't think the Air Domination is as one-sided as you think.

No, but they do have commandos.

...Spartans

 

[The Original Sixth]

Considering the UNSC has been facing fighter forces that will, likely, have been peer competitors of star fleet, I don't think the Air Domination is as one-sided as you think.

UFP fighters took hits from Galor class ships. Even small banks are generally going to be around 20 MWs or so. They took 2-3 hits in DS9. So unless those Pelicans and fighters are packing enough power to laugh off 2x the power of an Abram's main battle cannon, I don't think they're going to do so well against the Peregrin fighters.

...Spartans

Useful, no doubt, but how do you expect them to counter multiple commando teams that can beam across the planet in 1-2 minutes?

 

[Lord Sovereign]

...Spartans

I was about to mention that. Including special forces might not be the best idea when the UNSC are packing Spartans and ODSTs.

 

[The Original Sixth]

I was about to mention that. Including special forces might not be the best idea when the UNSC are packing Spartans and ODSTs.

I don't see any problem with it. I don't think it will really change the overall strategic situation.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

Spartans have a way of taking your box and making origami nukes out of them.

 

[The Original Sixth]

Spartans have a way of taking your box and making origami nukes out of them.

Again, useful...I don't want to underplay that, but there is really only so much you can do with a squad of Spartans. And they can't be everywhere, especially in such a large area of operations.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

At least until they erect an anti beaming field by utilizing the Forerunner tech.

 

[The Original Sixth]

At least until they erect an anti beaming field by utilizing the Forerunner tech.

That covers the entire planet and can't be taken out by the other side?

 

[The Whispering Monk]

That covers the entire planet and can't be taken out by the other side?

Covers the entire planet...
1. why would they need to cover the entire planet?
2. It's Forerunner tech. Of course it can cover the entire planet.

Can't be taken out by the other side.
1. Probably not from outside the control center.
2. Defended by Spartans and ODSTs so...good luck. And also probably going to be used as a distraction so they can then go take out other targets of opportunity while the Feds attempt to knock out the field.

 

[The Original Sixth]

Covers the entire planet...
1. why would they need to cover the entire planet?

Alright then, so the UNSC would then need to repair multiple facilities. Remember, the Forerunner defenses are basically non-functional. They can be repaired, certainly, but this is basically going to be a jury-rig by the UNSC.

2. It's Forerunner tech. Of course it can cover the entire planet.

You don't know that. In fact, you don't even know that they have any sort of anti-beaming tech, apart from energy shields.

Can't be taken out by the other side.
1. Probably not from outside the control center.

Why? They're going to need energy projectors, the cabals running to them, a power generator, and all sorts of stuff. There are a lot of places where the UFP could disable a section or even the entire security network with a well placed strike.

2. Defended by Spartans and ODSTs so...good luck.

You're unlikely to be able to defend the entire facility with just Spartans. You could with ODSTs, but if they're busy defending an area, they can't exactly be on the offense as well.

And also probably going to be used as a distraction so they can then go take out other targets of opportunity while the Feds attempt to knock out the field.

The flaw with that plan is that unless the UFP is overstretched, they're going to be able to use transporters to move troops around faster than the UNSC can get there. Or if the UFP is overstretched, they can withdraw. And to be honest, if the UNSC is forced to erect energy shields or anti-transporter fields because they're taking too much damage from raids, then the UFP is probably not the one overstretched, the UNSC is.

 

[Battlegrinder]

Transporters are useful, but I think the issue is that without more supporting firepower, supporting firepower the UFP does not unequivocally possess (yes, they have worf's fancy bazooka, but it's observed firepower is on par with a grenade launcher. Any anti-tank capacity is conjectural), simply being able to move troops into position* doesn't help, because they won't be in a position to do anything. It is very difficult to win against a combined arms force, or even a partially functionally combined arms force, with only small arms, particularly inferior small arms.

Federation phasers are, plausibly, more lethal per shot than a bullet, though as they're rarely used at the full power "make people go away" setting in combat there appears to be some limitations (either technical or doctrinal) to how they can be used. That is their solo advantage, UNSC weapons have a greater rate of fire, enabling a greater ability to employ suppressive fire and other modern infantry tactics, they have a comparable to superior range for most weapons (the federation has no sniper or DMR), and while a bullet wound may not be as lethal, it will be lethal enough. A single firefight could go either way, but over the course of a sustained conflict the UNSC will have the edge (it does not help the few non-combat uses phasers have, such as allowing federation troops to rapidly breach through walls, will be things the UNSC is already wary of as brutes and elites are known to do the same, and any such breech attempt can be detected beforehand via motion trackers).

I would also dispute the idea that federation photon grenades are any sort of anti-personal weapon. The federation has never been seen to use any sort of lethal anti-personal grenade, they have only used stun grenades and not during the time period cited here. Even in circumstances where they would have been useful, they were never employed. For example, in Seige of AR 558, the federation was forced to relay a dominion minefield, rather than simply setting a few of their grenades as tripwire traps instead (or alongside). It seems more likely they're the federation equivalent of modern thermite grenades, which are anti-material weapons and not anti-personal.

The UNSC also has a substantial edge in terms of overall combat equipment. A UNSC soldier deploys with NVG, rations, water, survival equipment, all of the standard issue kit that soldiers are expected to need. The federation does not carry most of that equipment, and in some cases what they have is not up to par. The UNSC, as mentioned, has night vision equipment. The federation has flashlights (and tricorders, but tricorders can't help you aim in the dark).


The other big question is air power, which I would in turn describe as two questions, namely air superiority and close air support. The UNSC has the vehicles and doctrine for both, and more importantly it has the pilots for both, and they're carried aboard ship as a matter of practice. The federation.....eh.

The federation does possess starfighters, which based on the performance of shuttles, should be roughly as capable in atmo as they are in space. However, the galaxy class doesn't carry them, and I don't know if the Akira does either. In some secondary canon it does, but the show never says it so, and akiras regularly engage in combat where fighters are nowhere to be seen, which implies that if they are carried, they are not normally loaded aboard. As air support is not common in ST battlefields, it seems at least possibly they would leave the fighters behind and save them for a more important front. That leaves them with shuttles, which are, as @The Original Sixth suggested, capable of engaging in air to air and air to ground combat. Though I would question some of his conclusions. The fact that the ruse in Lower Decks required making it look as though hand phaser fire attempted to down a federation shuttle, or the federation soldier in Nor the Battle that sacrificed his life to protect his platoon's troop transport from being shot down by Klingon infantry, both suggest a far greater vulnerability than the incident he cited (perhaps fighters are far tougher than shuttles, or atmospheric operations degrade their shields to massive extant?). But that's getting into stat quibble that I really don't care for.

The bigger issue is pilots. Merely because someone can fly a shuttle does not mean they can fly a shuttle into a dogfight, or conduct a strafing run. As in real life, that takes a degree of skill and training, and pilots with that sort of training are uncommon (Tom Paris being the only example of a federation shuttle pilot with a proven talent for dogfighting, and he's an unusual case). It is unlikely that the ships in question here will have a set of utility craft pilots that are up to air combat

The last point is close air support. Close air support is not just "shot things that are the ground", it's an entire doctrine all of it's own. There is a reason that Foward Air Controllers exist, there is a reason pilots train for this one task, sometimes even in aircraft specifically designed for that one task. It's very complicated and very, very dangerous. Without that system in place, a system there is no evidence the federation has, any federation attempt at CAS will be at best hapazard and unfocused.



*Also, I must stress that being able to move troops into position and move troops into position covertly are not the same thing. UNSC soldiers have motion trackers, and as shown by The Flood, it's entirely common to have an AI monitoring security feeds, along with drone surveillance and other tools. I do not think it is likely the federation forces will be able to sneak around and into UNSC positions covertly.

It's also entirely possible the UNSC will be able to jam transporters using it's own ECM gear, possibly without much trouble in general as the UNSC has already been shown to employ mobile ECM equipment as part of it's frontline forces. However, transporters are so utterly plot dependent that it's a total crapshoot (I would argue the UNSC can jam them, but I get there's a certain unfairness to "the writers make up stuff that turns this thing off whenever they want, we can do that too!").