IndyFront
Well-known member
They literally control one planet and have been set back technologically in many ways by the point of Dune. Wasn't that the whole point of the Butlerian Jihad?
Starfleet (Star Trek) vs Freman (Dune)
- Thread starter Scooby Doo
- Start date
Following the events of Dune the Fremen spread about the known universe and conquered it in gloriously violent Jihad on behalf of their new Heroic Boss.
No, the Butlerian Jihad was the destruction of thinking machines. After that, the galaxy gave birth to Computational Humans.
IndyFront
Well-known member
Oops I might be confusing Dune with another sci-fi universe
Agent23
Ни шагу назад!
Much of Dune's most OP tech is prohibited by the Great Convention or limited by in universe mechanics, like the interaction between a Dune shield and a dune Las weapon beam being two nuclear explosions.
They had the tech to destroy planets,
too.
They have prescience.
King Arts
Well-known member
True if they act like idiots they will lose. I’m assuming some competence though and that they can think of this plan. They may not implement it for moral reasons but it’s possible.
We don’t really know anything about dune space warfare. We have some information but it does not tell us how strong it is. Hell for all we know battle star galactic might beat them in space.
All we know is that travel in space is restricted. The only ones who can go give FTL travel is the navigators of the spacing guild. They use big as ships that are like 20 kilometers long, and the houses and other passengers dock their non ftl ships onto the big highliners.
Space warships aren’t a thing and we don’t know how many highliners there are probably not too many since one organization has a monopoly over space travel.
The point in time or the year doesn’t really matter. Technology doesn’t advance at a consistent rate. It could plateau or rise sharply.
Also the Fremen did have the help of the spacing guild since the Fremen did have a monopoly on slice which the guild needs.
Yes but again the Fremen had the help of the spacing guild which could ship them where they want and refuse to transport their enemies to reinforce planets, thus allowing the Fremen to conquer peacemeal.
Agent23
Ни шагу назад!
As one QQ member described them the reverend mothers are the "perfect Dommy Mommy", "with a coochile thet is so good it turns you into their eternal slave instantly."
This fucking thread...😂🤣
On a somewhat serious note, I'll answer the OP. The Federation Actually does somewhat better than the Harkonnan did by having better Air Mobile forces/Air support. The use of Shuttles instead of those...whatever they were to act as Air Mobile transports for Federation Ground troops and then act as a cross between an Apache/Spectre gunship, One that can dance around return fire missiles and likely tank a few hits even if those shots did connect. They'll go in and establish air superiority and pretty much crush the Freman in those first few battles, which will force the Freman to adapt their tactics.
Then I can see the Federation, even just throwing red shirts *cough* *cough* Starfleet security into the meat grinder, and they'll just grind the Freman down. Federation is vastly larger with far greater manpower reserves than the Harkonnan had. Federation doesn't need superior training and skill when it comes to ground operations. Which, as we've seen in the TV show, they lack. They just need basic tactics to draw the Freman out, which it will, then they vaporize them with superior weapons from the circling gunships. Whether Federation hand Phasers and phaser rifles can breach the sonic shields is not yet established by the OP, so OP please clarify that. But the Freman will never surrender. And I don't care how bloodlusted Starfleet is, they're not gonna genocide an entire race of poeple because of space pixie dust...
Fuck, Starfleet and the Federation don't even need the Spice and aren't getting rich off it. Its a novelty to them that might help improve health and long life, but we all know how squeamish the Federation gets about stuff like that. Yet...they want to keep Don Muadib Trump from giving it to the Borg....
....for....reasons...
I cant take this shit seriously without busting a gut....
Yeah, so...The Federation does better than the Harkonnans because they have better sensors, weapons and technology, but their troops suck. In the end, Arrakis will not be pacified before the Federation civilian population demands an end to the conflict.
Just send in the Tribbles.
Agent23
Ни шагу назад!
Um, given that the Feds bent over for the spoonheads and asked for peace when they were winning I kinda doubt they will have staying power.
This fucking thread...😂🤣
On a somewhat serious note, I'll answer the OP. The Federation Actually does somewhat better than the Harkonnan did by having better Air Mobile forces/Air support. The use of Shuttles instead of those...whatever they were to act as Air Mobile transports for Federation Ground troops and then act as a cross between an Apache/Spectre gunship, One that can dance around return fire missiles and likely tank a few hits even if those shots did connect. They'll go in and establish air superiority and pretty much crush the Freman in those first few battles, which will force the Freman to adapt their tactics.
Then I can see the Federation, even just throwing red shirts *cough* *cough* Starfleet security into the meat grinder, and they'll just grind the Freman down. Federation is vastly larger with far greater manpower reserves than the Harkonnan had. Federation doesn't need superior training and skill when it comes to ground operations. Which, as we've seen in the TV show, they lack. They just need basic tactics to draw the Freman out, which it will, then they vaporize them with superior weapons from the circling gunships. Whether Federation hand Phasers and phaser rifles can breach the sonic shields is not yet established by the OP, so OP please clarify that. But the Freman will never surrender. And I don't care how bloodlusted Starfleet is, they're not gonna genocide an entire race of poeple because of space pixie dust...
Fuck, Starfleet and the Federation don't even need the Spice and aren't getting rich off it. Its a novelty to them that might help improve health and long life, but we all know how squeamish the Federation gets about stuff like that. Yet...they want to keep Don Muadib Trump from giving it to the Borg....
....for....reasons...
I cant take this shit seriously without busting a gut....
Yeah, so...The Federation does better than the Harkonnans because they have better sensors, weapons and technology, but their troops suck. In the end, Arrakis will not be pacified before the Federation civilian population demands an end to the conflict.
Do dune starships even have weaponry? There's no space battles in the films and they're usually just used as transports/freighters.
Agent23
Ни шагу назад!
The new books and some of the sequels have armed ships.
Given the setting space combat is frowned upon since you might break something on board a highliner.
You do not want the guild pissed at you.
I like the idea...but Dune is probably the one place Tribbles will NOT flourish.Just send in the Tribbles.
Agent23
Ни шагу назад!
Tribbles die out or become worm chow.
Firstly, no, Dune Lasers will not interact with Trek Shields in the same way. Just because they're both a technology called "shields" doesn't mean they are the same thing. Dune Shields works based on "Holtzman Effect" and explicitly harness the "repellant force of subatomic particles". IE, this is a technology harnessing the Strong and Weak Nuclear forces.
Meanwhile Star Trek "deflector shields" work by creating a "layer or layers of energetic distortion with a high concentration of gravitons around the object to be protected." Gravitons being a theoretic particle associated with Gravity and energetic distortion likely involve electromagnetism. In short, Trek shields are utilizing a completely DIFFERENT SET OF FUNDIMENTAL FORCE than Dune Shields.
Further, the Laser weapon of Dune appear to be just that Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation. Thus Lasers being, well, Lasers, are a shared technological point and we know how Trek shields react to Lasers (they tend to work quite well to defend against them).
Now that said, this raises all sorts of crazy questions about how Dune Shields will interact with Trek weaponry. Trek weapons are almost all forms of Particle Beams, a technology that doesn't appear to exist in Dune. Given that Holtzman Shields specifically work against matter moving above certain speeds, I do think they would work to stop a Particle Beam, but then the question becomes what happens with the interaction between the Particle Beam and Shield. Lasers explicitly create nuclear explosions, but Particle Beams are not made up of Photons, but rather either just superheated and energized exotic particles. Phasers like the Federation uses explicitly harness Nadions, a fictional particle, and thus their interaction with a Holtzman Shield is completely unknowable; however, it is actually completely reasonable to assume that Dune Shields will generally be able to block Trek Phasers at least at the personal level. Particle Beams, after all, are definitionally coherent beams of highly accelerated particles... thus it is logical that the shield would stop the particles like any other high speed objects. That said, those particles would still exist and now decelerated, lose cohesion and likely just disperse over the immediate area. For individual fights, this does mean Phasers are ineffective; however, nadions do emit radiation and thus it is possible that those taking fire would eventually develop nadion radiation poisoning.
This interaction does suggest a tech solution that Starfleet could adapt though: lowering the velocity of Phaser blasts. Normally you want your Particle Beams to travel as fast as possible, but in this case, if they reduce the speed of the Particle Stream or Bolt, well, it will be able to pass through the Holtzman Shield and deliver its payload on target.
Further, Starfleet has any number of other non-lethal options to suppress the Freman. One technology that Holtzman Shields would be obviously weak to is gas attacks, and making a fast acting knockout gas delivered by small torpedoes would be a trivial technological adaptation for the Feds. Combine that with their sensors, and they could pacify entire Sietches worth of Freman safely from orbit by locating them, beaming in gas canisters that knock out everyone, and then sending in security personnel to secure the Sietch.
Meanwhile Star Trek "deflector shields" work by creating a "layer or layers of energetic distortion with a high concentration of gravitons around the object to be protected." Gravitons being a theoretic particle associated with Gravity and energetic distortion likely involve electromagnetism. In short, Trek shields are utilizing a completely DIFFERENT SET OF FUNDIMENTAL FORCE than Dune Shields.
Further, the Laser weapon of Dune appear to be just that Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation. Thus Lasers being, well, Lasers, are a shared technological point and we know how Trek shields react to Lasers (they tend to work quite well to defend against them).
Now that said, this raises all sorts of crazy questions about how Dune Shields will interact with Trek weaponry. Trek weapons are almost all forms of Particle Beams, a technology that doesn't appear to exist in Dune. Given that Holtzman Shields specifically work against matter moving above certain speeds, I do think they would work to stop a Particle Beam, but then the question becomes what happens with the interaction between the Particle Beam and Shield. Lasers explicitly create nuclear explosions, but Particle Beams are not made up of Photons, but rather either just superheated and energized exotic particles. Phasers like the Federation uses explicitly harness Nadions, a fictional particle, and thus their interaction with a Holtzman Shield is completely unknowable; however, it is actually completely reasonable to assume that Dune Shields will generally be able to block Trek Phasers at least at the personal level. Particle Beams, after all, are definitionally coherent beams of highly accelerated particles... thus it is logical that the shield would stop the particles like any other high speed objects. That said, those particles would still exist and now decelerated, lose cohesion and likely just disperse over the immediate area. For individual fights, this does mean Phasers are ineffective; however, nadions do emit radiation and thus it is possible that those taking fire would eventually develop nadion radiation poisoning.
This interaction does suggest a tech solution that Starfleet could adapt though: lowering the velocity of Phaser blasts. Normally you want your Particle Beams to travel as fast as possible, but in this case, if they reduce the speed of the Particle Stream or Bolt, well, it will be able to pass through the Holtzman Shield and deliver its payload on target.
Further, Starfleet has any number of other non-lethal options to suppress the Freman. One technology that Holtzman Shields would be obviously weak to is gas attacks, and making a fast acting knockout gas delivered by small torpedoes would be a trivial technological adaptation for the Feds. Combine that with their sensors, and they could pacify entire Sietches worth of Freman safely from orbit by locating them, beaming in gas canisters that knock out everyone, and then sending in security personnel to secure the Sietch.
Didn't Kirk fire a mini-nuke mortar in the Gorn Episode?
Yes, but in this case this isn't standard Federation but one that has been forced to fight and is actually fighting. When fighting, Starfleet isn't completely stupid and does moderately well. They're going to have to deal with rivers of blood here, but they're not pants on head retarded like the Harkonnan were.
Scooby Doo
Well-known member
Don Muadib Trump is a threat to Democracy, I heard he said the Borg are very smart and clever.
😱
Agent23
Ни шагу назад!
You mean the feds are dumber and more brainwashed than normal?
You must really like the Fremen.