Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind

[Skallagrim]

I think it's important to note that the main theme of Star Wars is as a good v. evil morality tale.

Just because Babylon 5 had an episode about labor union rights and Battlestar Galactica had an episode about... lol... abortion issues... doesn't mean the main storylines of these scifi sagas are about workers rights and being pro-choice with pregnant uhhh persons.

Andor and Rogue One can perfectly exist in Star Wars and can be very good. But they ain't the core of Star Wars and its overall theme. It's just like you can have stories without Jedi and Sith. That's perfectly fine too. But those elements are still core to the Star Wars setting.

One of the things about SW that people don't tend to recognise is that it's a reaction. (In fact, to some degree, and despite Lucas being rather lefty in his views, it can be called reactionary.) This is a story that goes back to the "more elegant innocent age" of the pulps. It is a fairy-tale in space; a planetary romance about knights and magic and princesses. It also has fairy-tale themes and messsages. Because it was written to react to the gritty, depressing sci-fi of the day, which Lucas didn't like at all.

Stories where everything was dreary and hollow taught young people that hope was for fools, and moral compromises were "smart". I'm not saying this as a dig (in fact, I like gritty sci-fi myself!) but Lucas was trying to shove aside the exact kind of story that @Bacle is telling us would be waaaaayyyyyyyy better.

But it wouldn't be better. Not here. Not in the universe that Lucas crafted.

Gritty, shady stories can be great. But Star Wars is NOT such a story. If you try to turn it into that, you kill it. You warp it. You turn it into a mal-formed thing, more machine than man...

Yes, I've seen Lucas's quote about that too, which is again him wanting to tell kids a comforting lie because of his own issues.

The issues you referred to first cropped up during the making of RotJ.

The quote I referred to is from 1978...

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

Which is something unique to the Disney-Verse. The Witches of Dathomir, while they did exist prior to Disney, were split between the various witch tribes and the Darkside Nightsisters. At least until TCW came along and made a mess of things by just acting like the Nightsisters were all the existed.

eh even in the books you had nightsisters that were ani-heroes and even them aside there was the Jensaarai and heck the Jedi themselves came about as a result of a schism from the Je'daii Order. on an individual level, you had the likes of Galen Marek (Aka Starkiller . I still think that some kind of accidental essence transfer occurred, so I consider the Starkiller from TFU2 to be Galen Marek) Revan, Jaden Korr, and then of course my all-time favorite Kyle "Chuck Norris" Katarn. So the idea of the force not being binary but a spectrum was something that was explored LONG before Disney got ahold of it. It's just Disney half-baked its execution.

 

[Typhonis]

Wasn't one contentious plot point. "The great secret is there is no dark side of the Force. Merely the darkness we all have within"?

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

Except it's portrayed as some sort of 'monastic' thing in S'task's argument, when it's really about Lucas's own issues with his marriage and divorce.

wait does that mean the whole drama with Anakin and Padme in episode 2 was....? ewwww!

 

[Bacle]

One of the things about SW that people don't tend to recognise is that it's a reaction. (In fact, to some degree, and despite Lucas being rather lefty in his views, it can be called reactionary.) This is a story that goes back to the "more elegant innocent age" of the pulps. It is a fairy-tale in space; a planetary romance about knights and magic and princesses. It also has fairy-tale themes and messsages. Because it was written to react to the gritty, depressing sci-fi of the day, which Lucas didn't like at all.

Stories where everything was dreary and hollow taught young people that hope was for fools, and moral compromises were "smart". I'm not saying this as a dig (in fact, I like gritty sci-fi myself!) but Lucas was trying to shove aside the exact kind of story that @Bacle is telling us would be waaaaayyyyyyyy better.

But it wouldn't be better. Not here. Not in the universe that Lucas crafted.

Gritty, shady stories can be great. But Star Wars is NOT such a story. If you try to turn it into that, you kill it. You warp it. You turn it into a mal-formed thing, more machine than man...

I prefer "Evolved, and Untamed" as what Star Wars should accept, though also am ok with a part machine franchise because "Nano-machines, son."

Just like Roddenberry would not have like what JJ did with the Federation, and probably wouldn't have even liked DS9, just because Lucas doesn't like the shades of grey creeping into his universe doesn't mean it creates bad stories.

If Lucas didn't want reality and shades or grey seeping into Star Wars, he shouldn't have sold the property.

The issues you referred to first cropped up during the making of RotJ.

The quote I referred to is from 1978...

I thought the issues with his wife dated back to the filming of ESB or before.

 

[Skallagrim]

eh even in the books you had nightsisters that were ani-heroes and even them aside there was the Jensaarai and heck the Jedi themselves came about as a result of a schism from the Je'daii Order. on an individual level, you had the likes of Galen Marek (Aka Starkiller . I still think that some kind of accidental essence transfer occurred, so I consider the Starkiller from TFU2 to be Galen Marek) Revan, Jaden Korr, and then of course my all-time favorite Kyle "Chuck Norris" Katarn. So the idea of the force not being binary but a spectrum was something that was explored LONG before Disney got ahold of it. It's just Disney half-baked its execution.

What you say here really makes no sense in the context of "the Force not being binary".

-- In the EU, the Witches of Dathomir were not Dark Side users, except the Nightsisters, who were unequivocally evil. Several Dathomiri witches of the non-evil groups just become Jedi. Kirana Ti was one of Luke's first students.

-- The Jensaarai were explicitly misguided, believing a lie about the Jedi, and thinking that using bad things to serve good ends was a viable path. They were explicitly wrong about that, and it's suggested that when their misconceptions about the Jedi are cleared up, they reject all Dark Side influence (indeed, several are stated to just outright become Jedi later on).

-- Kyle Katarn was always a good guy. One of the games has a plot where he falls to the Dark Side, but that's unquestionably a bad thing, and treated as such. Also, he then rejects it.

-- Generally speaking, using game mechanics as a reference is a bad idea, because those are explicitly non-canonical. The "dark/light meter" you have in the games doesn't reflect how the Force is intended to work.

None of this suggests that the Force is a "spectrum" that you can just dance along. Indeed, the Force is not even really binary. The Force is the Light. The Dark Side isn't some equal pole that lies antipodal to the Light: it is a corruption of the Force, a sickness and a wound. There is no spectrum: there is the Light, and there is a cliff you can fall or jump off of, plummeting into the Dark. You don't go half-way, really. Once you choose the Dark, it only goes down, down, down. (Implication being that even "a bit of evil" only ever leads to "increasingly more evil". Absolute morality again. SW is very, very big on absolute morality. It's a core tenet of the story.)

Just like Roddenberry would not have like what JJ did with the Federation, and probably wouldn't have even liked DS9, just because Lucas doesn't like the shades of grey creeping into his universe doesn't mean it creates bad stories.

As I mentioned just above: in SW, absolute morality -- Light and Dark -- is a central pillar of the story and the universe that it is set in. The metaphysics of the setting rely on Good and Evil existing in absolute terms. Again, you may not like this, but it's part of SW. Once you abandon that, you're just writing your own alternate universe fanfiction.

Which can be fun, but it'll never fit into actual SW.

If Lucas didn't want reality and shades or grey seeping into Star Wars, he shouldn't have sold the property.

I gather he's regretted it since. Regardless, however, legality is just words on paper. Disney may say they "own" SW, but they're still just writing legalised fanfic. Poor fanfic, mostly...

(Andor is good fanfic, but it's not, how do you say it... "canon-compliant".)

I thought the issues with his wife dated back to the filming of ESB or before.

RotJ was the big breaking point. You can see that in everything. Raiders of the Lost Ark was an extra commitment after ESB, and then prep for RotJ took over, and that was, apparently, "one film too many". Marcia Lucas couldn't put up with her husband's insane workaholism, and the fact that he was actually buring himself out hardly helped. They divorced in '83.

This surely affected George's view of certain matters, but it can hardly have influenced things he said back before writing on ESB even really began.

 

[Bacle]

As I mentioned just above: in SW, absolute morality -- Light and Dark -- is a central pillar of the story and the universe that it is set in. The metaphysics of the setting rely on Good and Evil existing in absolute terms. Again, you may not like this, but it's part of SW. Once you abandon that, you're just writing your own alternate universe fanfiction.

Which can be fun, but it'll never fit into actual SW.

Would you call DS9 'not really Trek' because it diverged from what Roddenberry liked to push about how science and logic could resolve almost any conflict?

I gather he's regretted it since. Regardless, however, legality is just words on paper. Disney may say they "own" SW, but they're still just writing legalised fanfic. Poor fanfic, mostly...

(Andor is good fanfic, but it's not, how do you say it... "canon-compliant".)

Andor is completely canon complaint, in fact it respected canon (both Legends and Disney) more than most shows have.

I just also showed the realistic take on how Mon Mothma could have ever got the Alliance to the point it was even in Rebels, never mind showing that not all Rebel leaders were naive idealists and were very willing to do shady shit to survive.

RotJ was the big breaking point. You can see that in everything. Raiders of the Lost Ark was an extra commitment after ESB, and then prep for RotJ took over, and that was, apparently, "one film too many". Marcia Lucas couldn't put up with her husband's insane workaholism, and the fact that he was actually buring himself out hardly helped. They divorced in '83.

This surely affected George's view of certain matters, but it can hardly have influenced things he said back before writing on ESB even really began.

Ah, didn't realize Lucas jumped straight from ESB to Raiders then to RotJ; that kind of workaholic mentality would destroy many marriages.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

None of this suggests that the Force is a "spectrum" that you can just dance along. Indeed, the Force is not even really binary. The Force is the Light. The Dark Side isn't some equal pole that lies antipodal to the Light: it is a corruption of the Force, a sickness and a wound. There is no spectrum: there is the Light, and there is a cliff you can fall or jump off of, plummeting into the Dark. You don't go half-way, really. Once you choose the Dark, it only goes down, down, down. (Implication being that even "a bit of evil" only ever leads to "increasingly more evil". Absolute morality again. SW is very, very big on absolute morality. It's a core tenet of the story.)

How does the Ancient Sith Empire of Korriban fit in then? That was a Magocracy that thrived off violence, yet it was also a glorious civilisation that flourished for thousands of years.

In some respects I think the Dark Side is the Force at its purest, the raw passion of life turned loose, but that way lies excess and excess leads to all consuming disaster.

Still, the Ancient Sith seemed to manage it reasonably well. They were barbaric and brutal but not quite evil.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

What you say here really makes no sense in the context of "the Force not being binary".

-- In the EU, the Witches of Dathomir were not Dark Side users, except the Nightsisters, who were unequivocally evil. everal Dathomire witches just become Jedi. Kirana Ti was one of Luke's first students.

-- The Jensaarai were explicitly misguided, believing a lie about the Jedi, and thinking that using bad things to serve good ends was a viable path. They were explicitly wrong about that, and it's suggested that when their misconceptions about the Jedi are cleared up, they reject all Dark Side influence (indeed, several are stated to just outright become Jedi later on).

-- Kyle Katarn was always a good guy. One of the games has a plot where he falls to the Dark Side, but that's unquestionably a bad thing, and treated as such. Also, he then rejects it.

-- Generally speaking, using game mechanics as a reference is a bad idea, because those are explicitly non-canonical. The "dark/light meter" you have in the games doesn't reflect how the Force is intended to work.

None of this suggests that the Force is a "spectrum" that you can just dance along. Indeed, the Force is not even really binary. The Force is the Light. The Dark Side isn't some equal pole that lies antipodal to the Light: it is a corruption of the Force, a sickness and a wound. There is no spectrum: there is the Light, and there is a cliff you can fall or jump off of, plummeting into the Dark. You don't go half-way, really. Once you choose the Dark, it only goes down, down, down. (Implication being that even "a bit of evil" only ever leads to "increasingly more evil". Absolute morality again. SW is very, very big on absolute morality. It's a core tenet of the story.)

Ok then you have the Jed'aii the original order who viewed the force as two moons and found the balance. Plo koon a jedi used a form of force lightning called electric judgment, Mace windu harnessed the ability to channel his own dark side and the dark side of others into his own fighting style which was canonized as Vapaad in Episode 3. Heck I mean by Lucas's own logic in the prequals Luke having an attachment for his father was him tapping into the darkside and that was all the way back into ROTJ. So even the whole "If it wasn't thought up by Lucas it wasn't canon" argument doesin't work here because Lucas has contradicted himself on details several times.

 

[Bacle]

How does the Ancient Sith Empire of Korriban fit in then? That was a Magocracy that thrived off violence, yet it was also a glorious civilisation that flourished for thousands of years.

In some respects I think the Dark Side is the Force at its purest, the raw passion of life turned loose, but that way lies excess and excess leads to all consuming disaster.

Still, the Ancient Sith seemed to manage it reasonably well. They were barbaric and brutal but not quite evil.

Also remember, the OG Jed'aii on Tython practiced the Force as a balance of both parts, not one side or the other, until after the civil war that began the Jedi Order.

Ok then you have the Jed'aii the original order who viewed the force as two moons and found the balance. Plo koon a jedi used a form of force lightning called electric judgment, Mace windu harnessed the ability to channel his own dark side and the dark side of others into his own fighting style which was canonized as Vapaad in Episode 3. Heck I mean by Lucas's own logic in the prequals Luke having an attachment for his father was him tapping into the darkside and that was all the way back into ROTJ. So even the whole "If it wasn't thought up by Lucas it wasn't canon" argument doesin't work here because Lucas has contradicted himself on details several times.

Ninja'd.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

How does the Ancient Sith Empire of Korriban fit in then? That was a Magocracy that thrived off violence, yet it was also a glorious civilisation that flourished for thousands of years.

In some respects I think the Dark Side is the Force at its purest, the raw passion of life turned loose, but that way lies excess and excess leads to all consuming disaster.

Still, the Ancient Sith seemed to manage it reasonably well. They were barbaric and brutal but not quite evil.

light sith were awesome too bad they were never numerous enough to establish their own order. (The Brotherhood tried but...it was bad.)

 

[StormEagle]

How does the Ancient Sith Empire of Korriban fit in then? That was a Magocracy that thrived off violence, yet it was also a glorious civilisation that flourished for thousands of years.

In some respects I think the Dark Side is the Force at its purest, the raw passion of life turned loose, but that way lies excess and excess leads to all consuming disaster.

Still, the Ancient Sith seemed to manage it reasonably well. They were barbaric and brutal but not quite evil.

Didn’t the ancient sith have ritualistic, sentient sacrifice? Pretty regularly and matter of course at that?

If so, I’d describe them as pretty damn evil. Kinda like the Aztecs.

Although, at least when the Aztecs did it was because they thought if they didn’t the sun would stop working or the earth would wake up and eat everyone.

I don’t think the Sith have “Korriban will wake up and eat your feet” as an excuse.

 

[Skallagrim]

Would you call DS9 'not really Trek' because it diverged from what Roddenberry liked to push about how science and logic could resolve almost any conflict?

Trek doesn't have metaphysics where an actual supernatural power that binds the kosmos together exists. DS9 doesn't go against the internal rules of the universe it's set in. It does go against the original author's preferences, but that's not something I've decried regarding Lucas, either.

If Trek suddenly became big into, say, Dune-type cyclical history and anti-progressivism, that would make it 'no longer really Trek'. It might create something I'd find interesting, but it would go against a core tenet of the setting (namely a progressive view of history as an 'upward path').

Andor is completely canon complaint, in fact it respected canon (both Legends and Disney) more than most shows have.

I just also showed the realistic take on how Mon Mothma could have ever got the Alliance to the point it was even in Rebels, never mind showing that not all Rebel leaders were naive idealists and were very willing to do shady shit to survive.

No, Andor is an AU fanfic. It's like inverse of those "ASoIaF, but NobleBright" stories/threads. "SW, but cynical" is antithetical to the source material.

The problem is that it appeals to your sensibilities, so you want SW to change to accomodate it. That's a fool's errand, and it will only destroy SW. (I think Roddenberry was wrong about basically everything, but I don't want Trek to be a story that appeals to my preferences, either. Because it's not that kind of story.)



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How does the Ancient Sith Empire of Korriban fit in then? That was a Magocracy that thrived off violence, yet it was also a glorious civilisation that flourished for thousands of years.

Hilariously, to Lucas, that's not canon compliant either. In fact, he's on record saying that in his view, there were never any long-lasting Sith Empires in history, because the Dark Side is purely self-destructive on anything approaching the long term. (Nor does he think large Sith organisations could ever durably exist, because they'd result in mass back-stabbing events.)

He has a pretty good point, when we look at the nature of the Dark Side. I could see Sith history, realistically, being a Darwinian struggle where they fight each other for dominance, until eventually one is strong enough to force all the others into line-- but then they start winning, and expanding, and the back-stabbing bonanza starts.

Basically, Sith history would be a constant cycle of warring against each other, interspersed with short-lived evil empires that are always destroyed by the self-destructive nature of the Sith themselves, within a few decades at most. And then it's long centuries of turmoil and endless in-fighting again... Long enough for the galaxy at large to forget that those barbarian savages were ever a threat... AND THEN THEY SHOW UP AGAIN.

(An apt comparison, of sorts, might be Chaos in 40K. They rather act like that, too.)



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Ok then you have the Jed'aii the original order who viewed the force as two moons and found the balance. Plo koon a jedi used a form of force lightning called electric judgment, Mace windu harnessed the ability to channel his own dark side and the dark side of others into his own fighting style which was canonized as Vapaad in Episode 3. Heck I mean by Lucas's own logic in the prequals Luke having an attachment for his father was him tapping into the darkside and that was all the way back into ROTJ. So even the whole "If it wasn't thought up by Lucas it wasn't canon" argument doesin't work here because Lucas has contradicted himself on details several times.

None of that comes from Lucas, as far as I know. Nor was Vapaad, to my knowledge, mentioned in any way in RotS.

Granted, Electric Judgement is stupid as hell, but the idea behind it is that it's used without malice and is non-lethal. Stupid and silly, and an excuse to "have the good guys use cool lightning powers too!" ...but not an indication of Plo Koon using the Dark at any point.

Mace Windu's thing in the EU is that he goes dangerously close to the edge, putting himself in danger of falling. And that whole idea is based on the fact that in RotS, Mace ultimately does appear to fall to the Dark, when he is willing to murder Palpatine, at that point semingly disarmed and at his mercy, "because he's too dangerous!" -- which, in typical Lucas style, immediately leads to Windu's demise. Again: in "Lucas world", if you choose to do evil (even with good intentions), the outcome is always bad.

Your reference to Luke having an attachment to his father is a typical misunderstanding, although Lucas really was unclear on that in the canon. His commentaries clarify: the attachments Jedi must avoid are possessive feelings. Luke is at no risk, because his love is purely compassionate. (I do personally disagree that avoiding possive, unhealthy feelings should imply a monastic life, but that's another matter.)

Then we have the Je'daii, who are hardly a good argument, since they didn't excactly make it. They existed in isolation, and trying to keep "balance" was constant effort. (They exiled anyone who diverged too much.) When the outside world fell upon them, their artifical "balance" couldn't be maintained for a minute.

In fact, this whole "we can balance Light and Dark" thing constantly leads to tragedy, and most Jedi who fall into evil do so because they think that they are special snowflakes who CAN do it. (Spoiler: they can't.) The Jedi way ("Light, and no compromises on that!") is proven again and again to be the right way.

 

[Husky_Khan]

Granted, Electric Judgement is stupid as hell,

Nah Electric Judgement was great for my Light Side Sith Inquisitor character in the early The Old Republic MMO.

Despite being Light Side, choosing Force Lightning as the dialogue option was always mandatory regardless of my force affinity.

And honestly, manipulating people as a Light Side Sith Inquisitor was hilarious right up to joining that silly Dark Council. Talk about the ultimate Dark Side deception. I bet I had Sith Holocrons imploding in suicide generations later when they found out my true story.

Oh wait, you weren't talking about that at all, nevermind.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

Your reference to Luke having an attachment to his father is a typical misunderstanding, although Lucas really was unclear on that in the canon. His commentaries clarify: the attachments Jedi must avoid are possessive feelings. Luke is at no risk, because his love is purely compassionate. (I do personally disagree that avoiding possive, unhealthy feelings should imply a monastic life, but that's another matter.)

That's kind of a big deal considering that "Force lightning is cool." aside this inability of Lucas's to be clear is where 95% of the confusion comes from. Lucas botched his own setting. What he should have done was make it clear that Padme and Anakin were toxic for each other and towards each other and that Anakin needed mental help and a relationship with someone more stable. (To be fair the books tried to do just that) instead what we got its "Human emotions are bad because they can lead to bad things."
But look you and I are wired differently and see things through completely different lenses. We're not going to agree on a fundamental level so I don't see the point in continuing this argument. You like star wars how you like it I'll like star wars how I like it.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

Nah Electric Judgement was great for my Light Side Sith Inquisitor character in the early The Old Republic MMO.

Despite being Light Side, choosing Force Lightning as the dialogue option was always mandatory regardless of my force affinity.

And honestly, manipulating people as a Light Side Sith Inquisitor was hilarious right up to joining that silly Dark Council. Talk about the ultimate Dark Side deception. I bet I had Sith Holocrons imploding in suicide generations later when they found out my true story.

Oh wait, you weren't talking about that at all, nevermind.

My female Darth Imperious was a healer lightning hybrid sorceress she had the personality of Obi-Wan and the power of Palpatine. Too bad Anakin couldn't have ended up with someone like her.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

Didn’t the ancient sith have ritualistic, sentient sacrifice? Pretty regularly and matter of course at that?

The Old Sith Empire is essentially a polity of the ancient world, dialled up to eleven with magical powers, crashing into the Star Wars Galaxy. Although, from what I can gather, the rule of the Jedi Exiles seems to have toned down the constant warring and proclivity to sacrifice, although it did still continue with the slave populace.

Burying slaves alive with their dead master was an unfortunately common thing in near pre-historic Egypt and Bronze Age China. The Sith don’t exactly stand out there.

Edit: As to the verdicts of George Lucas, think on this.

The Ancient Sith Empires, with all their fascinating lore and culture, are not canon in his view.

Midichlorians and Jar Jar Binks meanwhile are canon.

Think on that for a little while.

In George’s world Naga Sadow doesn’t exist whilst Boss Nass does.

 

[Skallagrim]

What he should have done was make it clear that Padme and Anakin were toxic for each other and towards each other

Padmé: stays with a guy and even marries him after he admits to murdering women and children in cold blood

Anakin: chokes his pregnant wife half to death, having just murdered yet more children, ostensibly in the name of saving her

If that's not toxic, I don't know what is.

and that Anakin needed mental help and a relationship with someone more stable.

See above.

Lucas botched his own setting

No, he made the things you mention quite clear. He didn't tell the story in a very elegant way, because he's very good at the broad strokes, but rather bad at writing authentic human behaviour.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

Padmé: stays with a guy and even marries him after he admits to murdering women and children in cold blood

Anakin: chokes his pregnant wife half to death, having just murdered yet more children, ostensibly in the name of saving her

If that's not toxic, I don't know what is.

true but this does bring into question what Obi-Wan saw in him.
"He was the best star-pilot in the
galaxy, and a cunning warrior. I
understand you've become quite a
good pilot yourself. And he was a
good friend. Which reminds me..."
like in hindsight it really does feel like Obi-Wan was looking at everything towards rose tinted glasses and projecting Luke's personality onto Anakin. Like Luke was everything that Obi-Wan wished Anakin was.

No, he made the things you mentioned quite clear. He didn't tell the story in a very elegant way, because he's very good at the broad strokes, but rather bad at writing authentic human behavior.

ugh see and that's one of the things that can make or break something for me. If people aren't good at feeling authentic it ruins the immersion for me. It's one of the things that drives me nuts about the second spider-verse film.

"There ain't no way that version of peter would side with Miguel on this." It's also one of the things that drove me nuts about the ST too.

 

[Bacle]

Trek doesn't have metaphysics where an actual supernatural power that binds the kosmos together exists. DS9 doesn't go against the internal rules of the universe it's set in. It does go against the original author's preferences, but that's not something I've decried regarding Lucas, either.

If Trek suddenly became big into, say, Dune-type cyclical history and anti-progressivism, that would make it 'no longer really Trek'. It might create something I'd find interesting, but it would go against a core tenet of the setting (namely a progressive view of history as an 'upward path').

Bajoran Prophets and Q would like a word or two about the 'metaphysics' bit.

No, Andor is an AU fanfic. It's like inverse of those "ASoIaF, but NobleBright" stories/threads. "SW, but cynical" is antithetical to the source material.

No, Andor is Star Wars for grown ups, instead of 12 year olds, and respects established canon of both Disney and the EU (they mention fucking Belsavis and the Rakatan Empire).

The problem is that it appeals to your sensibilities, so you want SW to change to accomodate it. That's a fool's errand, and it will only destroy SW. (I think Roddenberry was wrong about basically everything, but I don't want Trek to be a story that appeals to my preferences, either. Because it's not that kind of story.)

Star Wars is not static as franchise, it will always change, and the adult fans will want material that isn't pandering to 12 year olds for toys sales.

That people don't like 'serious' Star Wars like Andor is rather revealing, in that people don't want the stories of the average person in SW or their lives, all they want are the Jedi and Sith fights and Force fuckery and black and white morality to escape from the real world's grey areas.