Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind
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I liked the first three movies. The third was indeed better than I remembered, but it was originally supposed to have taken place on Chewbacca's home world- an army of angry Wookies bashing the Empire, that would have made it a five-star movie!
The prequels were pretty good. They had good world-building, Anikin's fall, and of course Darth Maul and Christopher Lee helped. I wasn't too keen on the second one but it was all right. The third one did nicely complete things and it very obviously wanted to give us our money's worth.
The sequels...after the first I haven't set foot in a movie theater since. Phooey. And "Solo" has the dubious distinction of being the first "Star Wars" movie to LOSE money, something nobody thought possible before Disney got ahold of the franchise.
What many do not realize that the 2016 sequel was guaranteed to make money even if it used popsicle stick puppets and flashlights for light sabers. You see, the sequels were never supposed to have existed!
That's right- in a 1998 interview George Lucas himself said it was a six-movie cycle. A 2000s comic called "Dandy & Co." had a gag where a little robot time-traveling dog started a stampede of nerd when he said (he was fibbing as a distraction) that he had all NINE "Star Wars" movies in his memory banks.
Hopefully the fact that political correctness ruined the seemingly invincible "Star Wars" franchise will wake people up to what going "woke" will do.
The prequels were pretty good. They had good world-building, Anikin's fall, and of course Darth Maul and Christopher Lee helped. I wasn't too keen on the second one but it was all right. The third one did nicely complete things and it very obviously wanted to give us our money's worth.
The sequels...after the first I haven't set foot in a movie theater since. Phooey. And "Solo" has the dubious distinction of being the first "Star Wars" movie to LOSE money, something nobody thought possible before Disney got ahold of the franchise.
What many do not realize that the 2016 sequel was guaranteed to make money even if it used popsicle stick puppets and flashlights for light sabers. You see, the sequels were never supposed to have existed!
That's right- in a 1998 interview George Lucas himself said it was a six-movie cycle. A 2000s comic called "Dandy & Co." had a gag where a little robot time-traveling dog started a stampede of nerd when he said (he was fibbing as a distraction) that he had all NINE "Star Wars" movies in his memory banks.
Hopefully the fact that political correctness ruined the seemingly invincible "Star Wars" franchise will wake people up to what going "woke" will do.
Star Wars has had inertial dampeners for a LONG time. Many novels mention pilots dialing it back from 100% effective to a tiny percentage so they can feel the maneuvers.
Lucas has at different points declared he "always" meant for Star Wars to be three, six, nine, and even twelve movies. He retcons his own plans all the time and constantly pretends that he's never changed anything about his "ultimate underlying vision".
Jaenera Targaryen
Well-known member
IIRC, he was also involved in the Dark Empire comics, as in he didn't just give the go-ahead, but was outright consulted during development and writing. So, yeah, for all the hate it gets, Dark Empire might actually be the closest to a Lucas-produced/written sequel to the original movies.
Of course, for all its flaws, Dark Empire was nowhere near as bad as the actual sequel trilogy. Don't forget, some of the most iconic places in the setting debuted in Dark Empire, such as Nar Shaddaa as well as Korriban, while also beginning the fleshing out of the Sith beyond generic evil space wizards with red laser swords and who can shoot lightning. That, and actually gave Darth Sidious a most ironic - and fitting(!) - ending.
Han Solo kills him.
No, really, Han shoots his last clone body dead, before the whole 'souls of every Jedi who ever died making sure he can never return from the dead' thing that Rise of Skywalker (spits) cribbed. A simple smuggler not particularly special beyond being married to one of the most powerful women in the galaxy, who cannot touch the Force, was the one to bring an end to one of the mightiest of the Dark Lords of the Sith.
Lord Sovereign
The resident Britbong
Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side.
It’s even more delicious when Sidious, the master manipulator, is ultimately slain by someone he’d have deemed a nobody and not acknowledged the threat.
DarthOne
☦️
Pride goeth before the fall.
Meh normal Writer/World Builder stuff.
It's more than just pride -- almost all Dark Siders, and even some non-fallen Jedi -- view non Force sensitives as fundamentally inferior.
DarthOne
☦️
Reminds me of an idea I had where the Shadows from Babylon 5 and their allies get IOST’d into Star Wars somewhere in the Outer Rim during the years prior to the Clone Wars and start doing their usual Shadow-stuff. Including possibly getting Dooku on side or otherwise setting into motion the creation of a viable, a non-Sith puppet Confederacy of Independent Systems.
The FUN really begins when you remember that the Shadows created the Techno-mages and have access to similar abilities. Meaning that no only can the Shadows recreate the Trchno-mages as Shadow loyalists, but have those abilities themselves. Meaning the Jedi and Sith just got completion both in the field and in a war of deception the likes of which they’ve never faced before.
On a completely different note: as far as I'm aware, there is no official translation of "This is the Way" into Mando'a. However, one of the really good fanfics I've seen made a pretty compelling argument for "Ibi'cuy Manda" over "Ibi'cuy yust". "Ibi'cuy yust" would be simply 'This is the Way" in the literal sense of path or direction; "Ibi'cuy Manda" is "This is the Way" in the spiritual and figurative sense of the Mandalorian Creed.
(Also, I think it's fair to say that 'in character', the Children of the Watch likely speak only Mando'a within the covert; the TV show just didn't go into that level of verisimilitude because it's really too much for a TV budget and production schedule.)
(Also, I think it's fair to say that 'in character', the Children of the Watch likely speak only Mando'a within the covert; the TV show just didn't go into that level of verisimilitude because it's really too much for a TV budget and production schedule.)
To be honest, even though the Shadows are the "bad guys" in B5, I kinda feel that they are right -- or at least more right -- in terms of the philosophical conflict between themselves and the Vorlons. The Shadows believe in strength and growth through conflict and competition, which is to say freedom, whereas the Vorlons believe in strength and growth through order and discipline, which is to say subjugation. The Old Republic is actually weak and unfit by both standards because it neither permits free conflict nor actually enforces order.
Interestingly, the Shadow/Vorlon split in philosophy is completely orthogonal to the split between the Jedi and Sith, such that the Force users can sincerely go both ways -- the Jedi are averse to violent conflict, but embrace constructive competition and generally freedom. The Sith in contrast are big on conflict, but also domination and the imposition of control.
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Skallagrim
Well-known member
In B5, the ultimate conclusion is that both sides are manipulative dicks who really need to take a hike.
However, the Vorlon ideal could more postively be described as "order comes from self-discipline, and self-discipline comes from self-knowledge". That's actually not very different from the Jedi vision.
Whereas the Shadow ideal suggests freedom, perhaps, but is in practice much like that of the Sith: ruthless social Darwinism, with the aim of "rule by the strongest".
The Vorlons don't live up to their own ideal (because they are blinded due to being locked in an enternal war against the Shadows, it's implied), and their ideal could be twisted into something dark, but in actual fact, they do seem to at least have meant well. The Shadow ideal could hypothetically be turned into something positive, if they weren't a race of omnicidal psychopaths. But they are, so in practice, they're just terrible.
...Anyway:
Plot twist: to balance things out, the Jedi get Vir Cotto out of the ISOT. The Shadows end up getting stomped, and by the end, he waves... like this:
However, the Vorlon ideal could more postively be described as "order comes from self-discipline, and self-discipline comes from self-knowledge". That's actually not very different from the Jedi vision.
Whereas the Shadow ideal suggests freedom, perhaps, but is in practice much like that of the Sith: ruthless social Darwinism, with the aim of "rule by the strongest".
The Vorlons don't live up to their own ideal (because they are blinded due to being locked in an enternal war against the Shadows, it's implied), and their ideal could be twisted into something dark, but in actual fact, they do seem to at least have meant well. The Shadow ideal could hypothetically be turned into something positive, if they weren't a race of omnicidal psychopaths. But they are, so in practice, they're just terrible.
...Anyway:
Plot twist: to balance things out, the Jedi get Vir Cotto out of the ISOT. The Shadows end up getting stomped, and by the end, he waves... like this:
The thing is that the Vorlons and Shadows were both correct, in a sense. They were also both complete dickbags by the end of their philosophical conflict, but the Vorlons tried to maintain a veneer of being the "good guys" for their own manipulations/egos. That's why B5 was so great -- everything was gray (except for Clark and his government, but it surprisingly worked as a contrast).In B5, the ultimate conclusion is that both sides are manipulative dicks who really need to take a hike.
However, the Vorlon ideal could more postively be described as "order comes from self-discipline, and self-discipline comes from self-knowledge". That's actually not very different from the Jedi vision.
Whereas the Shadow ideal suggests freedom, perhaps, but is in practice much like that of the Sith: ruthless social Darwinism, with the aim of "rule by the strongest".
The Vorlons don't live up to their own ideal (because they are blinded due to being locked in an enternal war against the Shadows, it's implied), and their ideal could be twisted into something dark, but in actual fact, they do seem to at least have meant well. The Shadow ideal could hypothetically be turned into something positive, if they weren't a race of omnicidal psychopaths. But they are, so in practice, they're just terrible.
...Anyway:
Plot twist: to balance things out, the Jedi get Vir Cotto out of the ISOT. The Shadows end up getting stomped, and by the end, he waves... like this:
Hell, even the Arm and the Core from Total Annihilation went down this road -- the Arm, the supposed "good guys", became just as ruthless as the Core by the end (draining planets dry of resources like water, committing genocide against a native species because it was a hindrance, et cetera), even though the game's mission briefs try to portray a clear "good" and "evil" faction in-text.
If you want truly evil though, you gotta go with the Daleks. They're just omnicidal monsters. Even when Daleks tried to be "good" they still were omnicidal monsters with different targets.
At least you can pity the Cybermen in a "they are like vampire victims but now must be destroyed to save everyone else" sense.
Lord Sovereign
The resident Britbong
The Daleks themselves are the tormented result of one madman’s ego. A broken toy if you will. Their creator did his utmost to ensure they could never aspire to be anything but the mutated master race of killing machines we all know and love. Indeed, whenever Daleks get smart enough to break their programming, they almost universally start questioning their creator’s “wisdom.” Many of them proceed to be utterly incapable of living with themselves thereafter.
Alas for the universe that such a race has such might. The ruined children of Skaro could probably slaughter the entire Babylon 5 verse for the funnies.
Edit: A force of evil, yes. But the poor twisted souls were made that way.
Val the Moofia Boss
Well-known member
The thing that made me tilt my head about the romance was that the psychology didn't make sense to me. What do women look for in a man as a husband? The strength and security to provide for her and her children. That typically means an older man who has some wealth, and is more calm and collected. Anakin in AotC didn't have any of that going for him. He was was constantly tripping over himself in comparison to the other Jedi around him, and he exhibited dangerous mental instability when he massacred an entire village. If Padme is going to have a taboo romance with a Jedi, then why pick Anakin over more competent and sane men like Obi-Wan? Another issue was the risk factor. Jedi aren't supposed to be married, so if the relationship was discovered then Anakin would be very likely lose his position. This was before the galactic war so Anakin had yet to become a prestigious war hero and general who could probably become a high ranking officer on any planet. Again, Anakin in AotC didn't seem competent or sane compared to his contemporaries. He is too much of a liability. Going after Obi-Wan would have far less risk of discovery.
DarthOne
☦️
Depends on when the Daleks are from.
Pre-Time War classic Doctor Who Daleks (depending on when they are from) would be somewhere on scale of a third age race, albeit a horribly warped one that would likely draw the ire of the Vorlons and Shadows in short notice.
Yeah -- according to Genesis, Davros purposefully made the template mutants (not the earlier experiments but the pre-production versions that the Doctor tried to destroy) have "defects" (which he called "improvements") to their brains, which made them incapable of being anything but sociopaths.
His own scientists were like "what the fuck, bro?" on finding out, too.
The few times the Daleks broke from this paradigm? It didn't end well for them, with their being either wiped out (the Humanized Daleks eventually, and their psychic colony), going on a genocidal rampage against their own species (such as with Rusty), or putting a literal or proverbial gun to their heads (Dalek Caan, the Metaltron) when they realized how evil they were/the guilt of being so monstrous.
This isn't even going onto the genetic purity spiral they frequently descend into (a good example is that survivors from Davros' "New Empire" outside of the three Ironsides actually attacked New Paradigm Daleks, and each considered the other impure/abominations: Civil wars between the Daleks are insane, as are their attitudes towards "impure" Daleks they use a cannon fodder.
If the Daleks at their height (Last Great Time War) were in the B5 universe, it'd basically be like all the Old Ones, together, with all their batshit EU capabilities rolled into one faction. Hell, they threw pretty much everything the Old Ones had in equivalence around as party favours against the Time Lords, and vice-versa.
The Last Great Time War was utterly insane, and the TV special a dozen years or so back did such an injustice to it that it makes bad superhero movies like Green Lantern look good.