Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind

[Val the Moofia Boss]

The Imperials can't win the war by simply killing lots of rebels. They would still run into the Vietnam problem where even with a 10-to-1 kill ratio, the war is unwinnable militarily since more boys are becoming men and joining the Rebellion than Rebels are being killed. So the war will never end. The Rebels also operate like guerilla fighters. Embarking on a wild goose chase, sending fleets in pursuit to hunt down rebel fleets that are assembling and dispersing and hiding amongst many various hiding places would be a waste of time. The Rebels would just optimize their strategies to minimize the amount of ships they need to lead Imperial forces away from their targets.

The key would be to neutralize the Rebel's ability to effectively fight. Star Wars is a space opera in which you need lots of technologically complicated pieces of engineering such as spaceships or massive shield generators or huge laser cannons in order to wage galactic war. Take away that, the Rebels at most would be restricted to using pipe bombs and the such. They would be a thorn in the side of the Empire but would have no hope of defeating it militarily. Thus, the Empire needs to 1. focus on destroying the Rebel's infrastructure. Ie, their shipyards, their factories, the bases their ships repair at, and 2. prevent them from acquiring machinery and spare parts, be it by destroying convoys or stopping people from selling or donating stuff to the Rebels.

Tactically, you would want to catch the Rebels off guard when they are assembled, ie at a base like Hoth. Sending scout droids across the galaxy might help, though there is a decent chance that they might be detected by the Rebels and give the Rebels time to evacuate or prepare for a fight. The best way would be to try to send many infiltrators into the Rebellion and then wait for them to send a message when they are shipped out to a rebel base or a rebel fleet is forming. Then send in an Imperial fleet on top of them and wipe them out.

Lastly, the Empire would need to successfully improve its image and demonize the Rebels so that the galactic populace would become less likely to aid the rebels buy selling or donating machinery to them. Maybe they could try to economically incentivize spaceship manufacturers to want to sell their spaceships to anyone else but the rebels, and penalize companies or arrest CEOs that do.

If the Empire can make the Rebels look like inept oldtimers who aren't accomplishing anything while everyone else is doing fine, then I'd imagine that after a couple generations there would be less and less people joining the Rebels to replace retirees or dying veterans, and the Rebellion would eventually fizzle out.

 

[DarthOne]

More proof that Dromund Kaas (DK) chat on SWTOR is insane. We actually got into an impromptu therapy session, after one player was complaining that she was already 30 but still unmarried

We basically ended up convincing her not to rush these things...that, and her being unmarried is one reason that she's still able to SWTOR in the first place. Calmed her down quickly enough

...makes me wonder why this kind of discussions never take place on Coruscant chat

Ehhhhhhh. Time is a lot less friendly to women as the years wear on and they remain unmarried.

 

[Skallagrim]

Whole I'm on the road for work, I've been reading The Star Wars (based on an earlier draft for the original film) again. Okay, a lot of it is hokey as anything, but I like it a lot.

But as I often do, I've looked up a lot of reviews after reading, just to see how other people's impressions stack up against mine. To my surprise, most opinions seem very negative. Far more so than I'd have thought.

Am I the outlier? How does everybody here feel about those comics? No wrong opinions possible-- I'm just curious.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

Whole I'm on the road for work, I've been reading The Star Wars (based on an earlier draft for the original film) again. Okay, a lot of it is hokey as anything, but I like it a lot.

But as I often do, I've looked up a lot of reviews after reading, just to see how other people's impressions stack up against mine. To my surprise, most opinions seem very negative. Far more so than I'd have thought.

Am I the outlier? How does everybody here feel about those comics? No wrong opinions possible-- I'm just curious.

MOST people that review are motiviated to do so because of negative responses to what they've just looked at. That's reason 1.

2nd reason is that Star Wars fandom is rife with people who have single part/theme of it they adore. If that isn't catered to in the material...it tends to make it un-enjoyable for them.

3rd reason...people like to tear things down.

Recommendation: ignore what everyone else thinks about what you enjoy spending your time reading. If you enjoy it, carry on.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

The Imperials can't win the war by simply killing lots of rebels. They would still run into the Vietnam problem where even with a 10-to-1 kill ratio, the war is unwinnable militarily since more boys are becoming men and joining the Rebellion than Rebels are being killed. So the war will never end. The Rebels also operate like guerilla fighters. Embarking on a wild goose chase, sending fleets in pursuit to hunt down rebel fleets that are assembling and dispersing and hiding amongst many various hiding places would be a waste of time. The Rebels would just optimize their strategies to minimize the amount of ships they need to lead Imperial forces away from their targets.

The key would be to neutralize the Rebel's ability to effectively fight. Star Wars is a space opera in which you need lots of technologically complicated pieces of engineering such as spaceships or massive shield generators or huge laser cannons in order to wage galactic war. Take away that, the Rebels at most would be restricted to using pipe bombs and the such. They would be a thorn in the side of the Empire but would have no hope of defeating it militarily. Thus, the Empire needs to 1. focus on destroying the Rebel's infrastructure. Ie, their shipyards, their factories, the bases their ships repair at, and 2. prevent them from acquiring machinery and spare parts, be it by destroying convoys or stopping people from selling or donating stuff to the Rebels.

Tactically, you would want to catch the Rebels off guard when they are assembled, ie at a base like Hoth. Sending scout droids across the galaxy might help, though there is a decent chance that they might be detected by the Rebels and give the Rebels time to evacuate or prepare for a fight. The best way would be to try to send many infiltrators into the Rebellion and then wait for them to send a message when they are shipped out to a rebel base or a rebel fleet is forming. Then send in an Imperial fleet on top of them and wipe them out.

Lastly, the Empire would need to successfully improve its image and demonize the Rebels so that the galactic populace would become less likely to aid the rebels buy selling or donating machinery to them. Maybe they could try to economically incentivize spaceship manufacturers to want to sell their spaceships to anyone else but the rebels, and penalize companies or arrest CEOs that do.

If the Empire can make the Rebels look like inept oldtimers who aren't accomplishing anything while everyone else is doing fine, then I'd imagine that after a couple generations there would be less and less people joining the Rebels to replace retirees or dying veterans, and the Rebellion would eventually fizzle out.

The problem is that the Empire is literally evil for the sake of evil, with the long-term goal of literally enslaving every sentient being in the Galaxy Far Far Away by parasitically tying them to the will of the Emperor via the Dark Side. This pretty much rules out any sort of long term strategy for containing the Rebellion by holding up the Empire as the rightful successor regime of the Republic, because the Empire "needs" to strengthen the Dark Side by causing maximum pain and suffering.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

The problem is that the Empire is literally evil for the sake of evil, with the long-term goal of literally enslaving every sentient being in the Galaxy Far Far Away by parasitically tying them to the will of the Emperor via the Dark Side. This pretty much rules out any sort of long term strategy for containing the Rebellion by holding up the Empire as the rightful successor regime of the Republic, because the Empire "needs" to strengthen the Dark Side by causing maximum pain and suffering.

As I recall, that’s more recent lore isn’t it? Because I didn’t really get that impression from the Original Trilogy or the Thrawn Books.

Edit: Never got the impression of the Empire being the “good guys”, just more of an authoritarian regime relentlessly stomping order into the Galaxy.

 

[Skallagrim]

As I recall, that’s more recent lore isn’t it? Because I didn’t really get that impression from the Original Trilogy or the Thrawn Books.

"Maximise suffering and essentially turn the whole galaxy into a massive sacrifice to the Dark Side and/or myself, with the aim of becoming a Dark God that can consume entire galaxies and ultimately the kosmos itself" was Palpatine's stated endgame in the original EU.

It's not made explicit that this is why the Empire failed so damn hard, but you can infer it: his priority was always Dark Side voodoo, to the detriment of sensible governance.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

It's not made explicit that this is why the Empire failed so damn hard, but you can infer it: his priority was always Dark Side voodoo, to the detriment of sensible governance.

Well, you learn something new everyday. I just always got the impression of Palpatine wanting order, whilst indulging his fetish. That the Empire’s evil sort of gets flanderised as the years go by, which is somewhat unnecessary as these bastards razed planets that dared to defy them. That’s bad enough.

But it does make an amusing amount of sense that the Empire started to function better once its Emperor was gone.

 

[Zyobot]

As I recall, that’s more recent lore isn’t it? Because I didn’t really get that impression from the Original Trilogy or the Thrawn Books.

Edit: Never got the impression of the Empire being the “good guys”, just more of an authoritarian regime relentlessly stomping order into the Galaxy.

"Maximise suffering and essentially turn the whole galaxy into a massive sacrifice to the Dark Side and/or myself, with the aim of becoming a Dark God that can consume entire galaxies and ultimately the kosmos itself" was Palpatine's stated endgame in the original EU.

It's not made explicit that this is why the Empire failed so damn hard, but you can infer it: his priority was always Dark Side voodoo, to the detriment of sensible governance.

Me, an SW meme-maker:

 

[ShadowArxxy]

As I recall, that’s more recent lore isn’t it? Because I didn’t really get that impression from the Original Trilogy or the Thrawn Books.

Edit: Never got the impression of the Empire being the “good guys”, just more of an authoritarian regime relentlessly stomping order into the Galaxy.

No, it's not Disney lore; it's Palpatine's ultimate plan from the old EU stories, and there were hints towards it from the *very beginning* of the EU.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

No, it's not Disney lore; it's Palpatine's ultimate plan from the old EU stories, and there were hints towards it from the *very beginning* of the EU.

Huh, what do you know.

That sucks.

 

[S'task]

Huh, what do you know.

That sucks.

No it doesn't. It's completely logical when you remember the actual underlying premises of Star Wars especially when you remember that the entire "Bipolar" idea of the Force was a later addition to the lore and that The Dark side was originally meant to be a forceful twisting and corruption of The Force, not a mirror Yang to a Light side Ying.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

No it doesn't. It's completely logical when you remember the actual underlying premises of Star Wars especially when you remember that the entire "Bipolar" idea of the Force was a later addition to the lore and that The Dark side was originally meant to be a forceful twisting and corruption of The Force, not a mirror Yang to a Light side Ying.

Nah, It sort of does.

The Empire is locked out of being a cold and competent authoritarian regime thanks to this. It is forever trapped in conical, puppy kicking villainy, which is something of a pity to my mind.

I mean the Soviet Union was an absolutely horrible place to live in, and an intimidating force, without Stalin wanting to eat the universe.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

No it doesn't. It's completely logical when you remember the actual underlying premises of Star Wars especially when you remember that the entire "Bipolar" idea of the Force was a later addition to the lore and that The Dark side was originally meant to be a forceful twisting and corruption of The Force, not a mirror Yang to a Light side Ying.

Hot take: Lucas screwed up the force when he tried to explain it and make it the center stage end all be all rather than a spice to enhance a character like the OT did. Even without the force, Luke would still be Luke. Compare that to the lion share of the Jedi in the PT who seem to have next to no personality other than *space Buddhist*

 

[Skallagrim]

Nah, It sort of does.

The Empire is locked out of being a cold and competent authoritarian regime thanks to this. It is forever trapped in conical, puppy kicking villainy, which is something of a pity to my mind.

I mean the Soviet Union was an absolutely horrible place to live in, and an intimidating force, without Stalin wanting to eat the universe.

It fits perfectly into the genre and the actual story, though. SW isn't hard sci-fi or even soft sci-fi, really. It's space fantasy. The Empire looking fascist is just surface level stuff: Palpatine is not at his core a fascist dictator. He's an evil wizard. That's his essence.

This doesn't automatically reduce the Empire the way you suggest, I think. They're very much a threat. But the failure is baked in, because it's ultimately the instrument of the evil wizard. And to him, suffering is not a tool to establish his tyranny-- his tyranny is a tool to increase suffering!

Metaphysically, that's far more disturbing, because it patterns 1:1 onto the satanic motivation. Narratively, it also works perfectly, so long as you realise that you're looking at a myth / fairty-tale type of story, which just happens to be set against a vaguely sci-fi background.

(It also invites contrasts, such as with Thrawn, for whom order is the final end, rather than the means to another end. This shows us how the Empire would be, under such a ruler.)

All of this is explicitly by design. Lucas constantly hammered on the fact that long-lasting Sith empires are impossible. Sith ideology is inherently self-destructive. They're not just regular tyrannies: they're magocracies dedicated to pure selfishness, greed, sadism and spite. Of course they're going to fail! And Palpatine's empire was no exception to that.

This also reflects the nature of Satan: self-destructive arrogance that claims to possess a greater power (and an easier path to it) but which only dooms anyone who commits to such evil. The East Asian philosophy is also surface-level stuff in SW. It's really a very Western story, with very Western premises. Which is also why the Light side (God/good) is balance, and the Dark side (Satan/evil) is discord. Restoring balance is repenting, per the tradutional Christian motif, and rejecting evil. (And, again in a tellingly Christian turn; to reject 'Satan' is to destroy his power over you.)

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

It fits perfectly into the genre and the actual story, though. SW isn't hard sci-fi or even soft sci-fi, really. It's space fantasy. The Empire looking fascist is just surface level stuff: Palpatine is not at his core a fascist dictator. He's an evil wizard. That's his essence.

This doesn't automatically reduce the Empire the way you suggest, I think. They're very much a threat. But the failure is baked in, because it's ultimately the instrument of the evil wizard. And to him, suffering is not a tool to establish his tyranny-- his tyranny is a tool to increase suffering!

Metaphysically, that's far more disturbing, because it patterns 1:1 onto the satanic motivation. Narratively, it also works perfectly, so long as you realise that you're looking at a myth / fairty-tale type of story, which just happens to be set against a vaguely sci-fi background.

(It also invites contrasts, such as with Thrawn, for whom order is the final end, rather than the means to another end. This shows us how the Empire would be, under such a ruler.)

All of this is explicitly by design. Lucas constantly hammered on the fact that long-lasting Sith empires are impossible. Sith ideology is inherently self-destructive. They're not just regular tyrannies: they're magocracies dedicated to pure selfishness, greed, sadism and spite. Of course they're going to fail! And Palpatine's empire was no exception to that.

This also reflects the nature of Satan: self-destructive arrogance that claims to possess a greater power (and an easier path to it) but which only dooms anyone who commits to such evil. The East Asian philosophy is also surface-level stuff in SW. It's really a very Western story, with very Western premises. Which is also why the Light side (God/good) is balance, and the Dark side (Satan/evil) is discord. Restoring balance is repenting, per the tradutional Christian motif, and rejecting evil. (And, again in a tellingly Christian turn; to reject 'Satan' is to destroy his power over you.)

I like this take but I really feel like Lucas messed the narritive up with the way he handled the PT jedi order.

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

I like this take but I really feel like Lucas messed the narritive up with the way he handled the PT jedi order.

No kidding. I mean, Mace Windu was badass, but he was also something of an asshole, and the rest of the Jedi Council not much better. Even back then I was cheering for Sidious when he ROFL-stomped the councilors, and actually facepalmed when Anakin showed up and Mace practically told him the same thing Sidious did earlier in the film about Dooku, i.e. "too dangerous". It literally wasn't until Anakin ignited his lightsaber on those initiates (I refuse to use 'youngling', seriously, that's just stupid) that I remembered that Sidious is supposed to be bad. Then again, Darth Vader has always been my favorite character from the original films, so...

...even Obi-Wan comes off as a sellout at times, for all that he tries to be supportive of Anakin, but whenever the Council browbeats the kid all he does is sit there like a stranger.

 

[Typhonis]

No kidding. I mean, Mace Windu was badass, but he was also something of an asshole, and the rest of the Jedi Council not much better. Even back then I was cheering for Sidious when he ROFL-stomped the councilors, and actually facepalmed when Anakin showed up and Mace practically told him the same thing Sidious did earlier in the film about Dooku, i.e. "too dangerous". It literally wasn't until Anakin ignited his lightsaber on those initiates (I refuse to use 'youngling', seriously, that's just stupid) that I remembered that Sidious is supposed to be bad. Then again, Darth Vader has always been my favorite character from the original films, so...

...even Obi-Wan comes off as a sellout at times, for all that he tries to be supportive of Anakin, but whenever the Council browbeats the kid all he does is sit there like a stranger.

As was pointed out to me earlier....Anakin was not loyal to things like the Republic or the Jedi order and during the clone wars was shown to have a mean streak when it came to protecting those he loved. Case in point what he did to the Sand people. Remembering that think about what Yoda said to Anakin, that he must let go...yeah he was worried his wife may die in child birth and the muppet told him to just let it go.

Is it any wonder he turned on the order when he did when it looked like he had no friends left in it? Ashoka? Gone cast out of the Order because of politics. Obi Wan? A company man though and through who was blind to its problems. If he had any other friends they were probably dead by then or on a distant battlefield in the war. Lastly he had been exposed to a fucking Dark Lord of the Sith for a decade and no one thought the Jedi would need a good antivirus to keep from being corrupted by not a mustache twirling villian but someone who seemed like a friendly old man doing the best he could.

As one fic put it....Far has the Order fallen is a Sith Lord walks the Senates floor unmolested.

 

[AspblastUSA]

yeah he was worried his wife may die in child birth and the muppet told him to just let it go.

In all fairness to said muppet, there's no indication that Yoda was aware of his relationship with Padme. Obi-Wan almost certainly knew, some of the other Jedi who interacted with Anakin and Padme a fair bit might've, but Yoda? I don't recall any time he even saw them together outside of AotC.

Given that, and the fact that Anakin didn't actually say who he was talking about, he probably thought Anakin was getting visions about Obi-Wan dying. He was a Jedi general, and was going halfway across the galaxy to confront a particularly dangerous enemy at that moment, it would be the most sensible conclusion given what Yoda knew. The advice, while sounding a bit harsh, also makes sense if that's who Yoda thought Anakin was talking about. Obi-Wan was commanding a battle halfway across the galaxy, there genuinely was nothing he could have done.

 

[S'task]

It fits perfectly into the genre and the actual story, though. SW isn't hard sci-fi or even soft sci-fi, really. It's space fantasy. The Empire looking fascist is just surface level stuff: Palpatine is not at his core a fascist dictator. He's an evil wizard. That's his essence.

This doesn't automatically reduce the Empire the way you suggest, I think. They're very much a threat. But the failure is baked in, because it's ultimately the instrument of the evil wizard. And to him, suffering is not a tool to establish his tyranny-- his tyranny is a tool to increase suffering!

Metaphysically, that's far more disturbing, because it patterns 1:1 onto the satanic motivation. Narratively, it also works perfectly, so long as you realise that you're looking at a myth / fairty-tale type of story, which just happens to be set against a vaguely sci-fi background.

(It also invites contrasts, such as with Thrawn, for whom order is the final end, rather than the means to another end. This shows us how the Empire would be, under such a ruler.)

All of this is explicitly by design. Lucas constantly hammered on the fact that long-lasting Sith empires are impossible. Sith ideology is inherently self-destructive. They're not just regular tyrannies: they're magocracies dedicated to pure selfishness, greed, sadism and spite. Of course they're going to fail! And Palpatine's empire was no exception to that.

This also reflects the nature of Satan: self-destructive arrogance that claims to possess a greater power (and an easier path to it) but which only dooms anyone who commits to such evil. The East Asian philosophy is also surface-level stuff in SW. It's really a very Western story, with very Western premises. Which is also why the Light side (God/good) is balance, and the Dark side (Satan/evil) is discord. Restoring balance is repenting, per the tradutional Christian motif, and rejecting evil. (And, again in a tellingly Christian turn; to reject 'Satan' is to destroy his power over you.)

I regret that I have but one "like" to give this post. This captures so much correct about Star Wars and why I find the Jedi and Force aspects so important to it too. It also explains why there is no such thing as gray Jedi you cannot be both good and evil there is no balancing good and evil. And this is strongly reflected in the Original Trilogy... "Once you start down the Dark Path, forever will it dominate your destiny" as Yoda said, because once you begin to compromise with Evil, it invariably becomes easier and easier to compromise with it just a bit more... until you are simply evil.

This reading is also something I expect chafes a lot of modern people because they subconsciously recognize it and hate it, because the Force is not an abstract. It solidifies morality, makes it so there is actual Good and Evil in the setting and thus prevents the underlying framework that so many people accept: that good and evil are relative and social constructs.

I expect that one of the things Disney will be doing going forward is completely rejecting this old reading of the Force and relationship between the Jedi and Sith, and instead they will embrace the entire "Grey Jedi" thing where neither the Light or Dark sides are Good and Evil, but instead it's all about personal balance and personal choice, there will be no objective Good and Evil, but rather it will be about acceptance and inclusion.