Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind

[Crom's Black Blade]

I prefer Space Chernobyl to Space Opera. The Star Wars franchise and universe is strong enough and vast enough not every story in the setting needs the magical shit to be interesting or compelling.

I suppose it's really what you are looking to get out of "STAR WARS". To me, it's pulp scifi. I want dashing heroes, beautiful princess, heroic sword fights and last second escapes from danger as a menacing villain looms overhead. To the extent I want it to get darker or more "serious" its in the Weird Fiction tradition with wacky Nazi analogues and dark old gods long forgotten but no whispered about in the corners of society.

 

[Skallagrim]

See, I'm of the camp that thinks that without the Force, there is no Star Wars. I really don't get the obsession with Force-less Star Wars. Force-less Star Wars is just a two-bit Space Opera with crappy worldbuilding. The Force is fundamental to what makes Star Wars Star Wars and without it the entire setting just feels hollow to me.

The Star Wars franchise and universe is strong enough and vast enough not every story in the setting needs the magical shit to be interesting or compelling.

I think 'The Force' and Jedi/Sith being a core component of Star Wars and its setting is reasonable. But it doesn't mean you can't tell a good story without that being a thick focus of it. Especially with how settled and expansive the lore actually is.

It's like saying you can't tell a Marvel story without proper "Superheroes." Yes... you can. It might not be something you'd want to launch a billion dollars worth of movies on but you can probably tell a story without any capes flying about for television or whatever.

But the whole Force dynamics is a central component of the setting and can't really be ignored so to speak. It'll always be in the background because its integral to the setting.

I think they probably should do either a movie or better yet a show focused on the fleet/starfighter corps side of things for either the rebellion or the early new republic.

SW is a pretty broad setting, and you can take it in various directions. One issue that you do run into is that if you take it further and further away from its core concept, it becomes less and less "Star Wars", and turns increasingly into "could really just be an original sci-fi film/series, but happens to be set in the SW galaxy".

In my view, once a substantial number of people starts getting that latter feeling, you're almost certainly better off (for all involved!) if you just stop trying to shoe-horn it into the SW setting, and just write it as an original story instead.

The thing about SW is that it does mean different things to different people. You can take something that's pure SW (like cool X-Wing pilots on daring missions; which is the thrilling conclusion of the original film!) and turn that into its own thing. That's how you get the X-Wing books and comics, which were very awesome. (But a few people do feel that they're not "properly" SW.)

It should be noted that "it's really great, and it looks exactly as it should, but it doesn't feel that much like SW" is about the most common (quasi-)complaint about Andor. And I do feel that way myself. I like it, but... I think this is a borderline case, where it might actually have helped the series if they'd just made it a well-written original thing, instead of an SW series. It's going for a tone that's at odds with the core of SW.

Because here's the thing: SW isn't necessarily about space magic. You can tell it without Jedi (although those are a unique selling point, which you ignore at your peril). But SW is very much a "hero story". It's a lot of fairy tale ideas, a lot classic fantasy ideas, a lot of classic mythology themes, a lot of pulpy adventure serial influence, a (remarkably modest!) bit of samurai film, a(n equally modest!) bit of Western film, and a good helping of "World War II ace pilot" film. All transplanted into a very soft sci-fi setting that merrily blends the 'planetary romance' and 'space opera' traditions.

If you don't have at least one of those things to really lean on, the result just isn't going to feel like SW to a lot of people. Because, quite honestly, it's not going to be like SW, then. It's going to be a fundamentally different kind of beast, just made to look the same. And it can be a great beast! A spectacular one! But we're all better off if you just let it look like itself, and don't dress it up as being "Star Wars".

I, too, like "Space Chernobyl". But I'd like it better if it didn't try to be "Star Wars". Because "Star Wars" just... isn't "Space Chernobyl". Trying to force one into the coat of the other is to the detriment of both, because neither can be fully itself under those circumstances.

That's my sense of the matter, at least.

 

[S'task]

Andor has fundamentally no appeal to me, I don't enjoy deep serious dramas that explore the "human condition", I never have, those types of films/movies/series never have held my attention in large part because, well, I don't need FICTION to explore the human condition, I can read any number of histories and biographies or just, yanno, talk and listen to people to do that. I don't need fiction to explain to me how the common people can get swept up in an authoritarian government, there are plenty of excellent histories on the rise of Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia, and biographies about many of those involved. Basically if I want to see the drama and complexities of Chernobyl, I'll go watch documentaries on Chernobyl, why should I settle for "Chernobyl but made up and in Star Wars"?

Because here's the thing, I don't need or want fiction that emphasizes how bleak things are, or how powerless people are in the face of the almighty uncaring bureaucracy. I know that already from real life and all those biographies and histories. Fiction for me is about raising up and giving hope, or being able to leave the mundane world behind for a bit and have larger than life heroes who actually do get to make a difference. And the urge to bring down fictional settings and make them more "realistic" or "deconstruct" them to me seems to miss the entire point of fiction to begin with.

That said, if you like Andor, that's fine, just don't turn around and claim "this is what Star Wars should be!" because it fundimentaly misses the plot of what Star Wars IS.

 

[Zachowon]

My wife didn't like Andor. Boring to her

 

[f1onagher]

And yet Andor didn't need a single Force or lightsaber use to tell a hugely compelling and dramatic story in the Star Wars universe.

I'd prefer the more mature feel of Andor to the infantilization of the audeince that it has felt like most other Star wars properties pursue these day.

I prefer Space Chernobyl to Space Opera. The Star Wars franchise and universe is strong enough and vast enough not every story in the setting needs the magical shit to be interesting or compelling.

Star Wars is a setting as large as 40k and has ample room for thousands of stories involving pilots, soldiers, bounty hunters, Jedi, secret agents, admirals, and so much more. So long as a few standards are set (like no light speed ramming!) you can write any of a thousands stories that are out of the way of the classic pulpy Star Wars central plot. The problem is that every time someone does start to do something like that (ala Mandalorian) they immediately have to tie it into the central story to milk it for member berries and keep the Funko Pop collective clapping.

That many people didn't like Andor isn't a flaw, Andor had a different target audience in mind and that's fine. I'd love to live in a world where we had a post-Endor X-wing series running at the same time as a pre-Yavin rebel series, or a pre-Clone War Jedi series, or a timeless Bounty Hunter series. Take advantage of the setting and cater to different audience types rather than try to recapture a decades past zeitgeist that no one in Disney is at risk of being able to pull off.

It won't happen of course, Andor is an odd once off and as much as I enjoyed it it still suffered from Modern Disney Syndrome and I will forever remain cynical in waiting for the writers to really screw it up next season.

 

[Bacle]

Andor relied more on British style acting and dry humor/seriousness and subtle story telling than Hollywood-esque samurai/western genres most SW properties pursue.

Andor also offered a rather blank slate to the creators to work with for pre-Yavin times.

I get 'Star Wars is for kids' is a thing, however the IP is old enough, and the universe broad enough, that stories of the mundane lives of the small (bit) actors/players in the galaxy is more interesting now than the clusterfuck that the sequels turned the Jedi-Sith/Skywalkers/Palpatine's into.

These days even I get why Borsk Fey'lya survived so long on opposing the Solo's/Skywalkers, the NJO, and their friends; lots of the galaxy breathed a sigh of relief after Order 66, because it meant no more Dark Jedi/Fallen Jedi gone rogue/Sith concerns.

Force users have been at the center of pretty much every war, and the majority of large wars not started by a rogue Force user were caused by Mando's or Pius Dei, neither of which is much of a threat to the average citizen of the galaxy anymore. Plus, well, the Jedi and Sith never really did anything about the Hutts, who have directly and continuously caused massive suffering throughout the galaxy for their entire history.

I guess I'm just tired of Star Wars properties always trying to infantilize/talk down to the audience's intelligence in many ways, and make 'good vs evil' more magical and showy than it actually is, while at the same time pushing woke shit.

And Andor, unlike about 90% of the modern Star Wars properties, doesn't push woke shit over story.

People complain about Disney pushing woke shit, and yet when non-woke, good quality shit comes along from a British group treating Star Wars with the seriousness they showed Chernobyl, suddenly now shit doesn't have enough Force users, lightsaber fights, is too 'realistic', and too boring.

Horse Theory for fiction, I guess.

 

[Crom's Black Blade]

While I can certainly understand liking Andor or feeling it's take is a fresh breath of air especially in this era of Disney over-saturation I confess I don't really understand this almost looking down upon the core elements of Star Wars as if they're a hindrance to "good storytelling". It would be like someone complaining about Star Trek always being about optimism and exploring brave, new worlds and arguing the universe was large enough, and its fans mature enough, that instead Trek should be about trials and tribulations of dilithium miners eking out an existence far away from the mighty starships zipping through the cosmos.

If you truly dislike the tone or identity of a franchise, if Star Wars being a heroic fantasy is unpalatable, why try to warp it to fit a shape it was never designed too? Why not find or create a new work that can be as serious, grounded or gritty as you desire?

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

While I can certainly understand liking Andor or feeling it's take is a fresh breath of air especially in this era of Disney over-saturation I confess I don't really understand this almost looking down upon the core elements of Star Wars as if they're a hindrance to "good storytelling". It would be like someone complaining about Star Trek always being about optimism and exploring brave, new worlds and arguing the universe was large enough, and its fans mature enough, that instead Trek should be about trials and tribulations of dilithium miners eking out an existence far away from the mighty starships zipping through the cosmos.

If you truly dislike the tone or identity of a franchise, if Star Wars being a heroic fantasy is unpalatable, why try to warp it to fit a shape it was never designed too? Why not find or create a new work that can be as serious, grounded or gritty as you desire?

because unfortantly people are consumers who will eat anything with a brand on it. I dealt with this a lot with my own writing hence why I turn a lot of my stuff into fanfiction. The fact that people are outright rebelling against the machine now is a very new and unexpected phenomenon.

 

[Bacle]

While I can certainly understand liking Andor or feeling it's take is a fresh breath of air especially in this era of Disney over-saturation I confess I don't really understand this almost looking down upon the core elements of Star Wars as if they're a hindrance to "good storytelling". It would be like someone complaining about Star Trek always being about optimism and exploring brave, new worlds and arguing the universe was large enough, and its fans mature enough, that instead Trek should be about trials and tribulations of dilithium miners eking out an existence far away from the mighty starships zipping through the cosmos.

If you truly dislike the tone or identity of a franchise, if Star Wars being a heroic fantasy is unpalatable, why try to warp it to fit a shape it was never designed too? Why not find or create a new work that can be as serious, grounded or gritty as you desire?

Simple, the same reason people amp up muggles in some HP fiction: Magicals should fear mundanes, not the other way around.

The fewer active Force users there are in the galaxy, the safer the place tends to be.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

The fewer active Force users there are in the galaxy, the safer the place tends to be.

I don’t know, force users were dramatically winnowed in the twilight hours of the Clone War and the Galaxy wasn’t much safer afterwards.

 

[Bacle]

I don’t know, force users were dramatically winnowed in the twilight hours of the Clone War and the Galaxy wasn’t much safer afterwards.

Yes, because they had a Sith in charge of the Republic/Empire, and Palp's didn't want competition that could actually threaten him.

 

[Crom's Black Blade]

Simple, the same reason people amp up muggles in some HP fiction: Magicals should fear mundanes, not the other way around.

Well in Harry Potter, like in Star Wars, you are supposed to identify with the main character and being a Wizard/Jedi. One of the "special" of the universe rather than the Mundanes. So if you identity as a mundane you've kind of missed the fundamental concept of what Harry Potter is about. Just like I can't get into X-Men because I sympathize far more with the humans than the mutants.

Nor is a lack of jedi the sole, or arguably even primary, reason Andor doesn't feel like Star Wars. You could certainly have Star Wars without Jedi. It would basically just be Buck Rogers/Flash Gordon/A Princess of Mars but you could tell an entertaining story that *feels* like it should be part of the greater franchise.

 

[Bear Ribs]

I mean, Rogue Squadron was a pretty successful multimedia series that didn't have much in the way of Force shenanigans going on. That establishes that the formula can work, in my mind.

Actually I'd totally be down for a new Rogue Squadron TV show if it were faithful to the original... yeah long shot I know.

 

[Bacle]

Well in Harry Potter, like in Star Wars, you are supposed to identify with the main character and being a Wizard/Jedi. One of the "special" of the universe rather than the Mundanes. So if you identity as a mundane you've kind of missed the fundamental concept of what Harry Potter is about. Just like I can't get into X-Men because I sympathize far more with the humans than the mutants.

Nor is a lack of jedi the sole, or arguably even primary, reason Andor doesn't feel like Star Wars. You could certainly have Star Wars without Jedi. It would basically just be Buck Rogers/Flash Gordon/A Princess of Mars but you could tell an entertaining story that *feels* like it should be part of the greater franchise.

Why would I identify with two characters with vastly different life-styles and life-choices, who in no way resemble my life or the lives of many others?

The idea the audience is supposed to feel like they ID with the 'special' person with amazing powers, over the mundanes that we actually are like, in the fiction is part of the problem with a lot of modern fiction.

Magicals in 99% of settings are rarely benign, and mostly abuse the mundanes around them with out consequence, because they are 'special'.

The Jedi Mind Trick, in any other setting, would be called mind control/mind rape, yet here is shrugged off, just like people shrug off HP wizards memory wiping muggles at will and treating it like nothing.

People need mundane heros to identify with, not Jedi or wizards who they will never be like; give people realistic hopes, not false impressions of what actually makes some one a hero.

I mean, Rogue Squadron was a pretty successful multimedia series that didn't have much in the way of Force shenanigans going on. That establishes that the formula can work, in my mind.

Actually I'd totally be down for a new Rogue Squadron TV show if it were faithful to the original... yeah long shot I know.

It would be much better, even if it did have some Force stuff with Corran in the books, but that was kept behind the starfighter action and strategic stuff, where it belongs.

 

[Crom's Black Blade]

Why would I identify with two characters with vastly different life-styles and life-choices, who in no way resemble my life or the lives of many others?

Personally I'd say the problem with modern fiction is the exact opposite. We, the consumer, are repeatedly blasted that you can only like a character if it superficially resembles you. If it conforms to your race, class, orientation ect.

Where as before heroes were meant more to inspire us rather than conform to us. So we can identify with Luke not because we have magical powers that elevate us above our peers but because of the universal traits of his heroism and his journey. His powers are a tool to that end, nothing more.

People need mundane heros to identify with, not Jedi or wizards who they will never be like; give people realistic hopes, not false impressions of what actually makes some one a hero.

There is nothing "false' about Luke being a hero. Or Harry Potter. Or Superman. Heroism isn't defined by how closely said character adheres to our humdrum reality and if it was, if your potential was so limited, this world would be a much worse place for it.

 

[Skallagrim]

I mean, Rogue Squadron was a pretty successful multimedia series that didn't have much in the way of Force shenanigans going on. That establishes that the formula can work, in my mind.

Actually I'd totally be down for a new Rogue Squadron TV show if it were faithful to the original... yeah long shot I know.

Very true. But then, Rogue Squadron works as a concept because it's fundamentally about those awesome fighter pilots doing heroic missions-- just like we saw in the last 20 minutes of ANH! It also has the benefit of being set right after RotJ (so its events can follow up on where that story left off, as far as the 'Rebels/Republic vs. Empire' thing is concerned). And it has some characters who at least appeared in the OT, and whose names we know (notably Wedge, but Ackbar periodically shows up as a supporting character, too). And it had a bit of 'Force stuff', with Corran, which was probably a smart move. (Not too much of it to derail the plot, but enough to reassure the audience that "this is Star Wars, for sure".)

We may contrast this with a hypothetical scenario where we re-imagine it as a considerably more 'serious' and cynical revision of the concept. No 'heroic pilot' stories that are basically World War II adventure films IN SPACE, but instead way more grim explorations of the difficult decisions that men have to make in war. No heroes at all, but only morally compromised anti-heroes. No happy endings, only bleak realism. And no supernatural stuff! No sense of wonder! Only a sense of despair...

And I'd watch that series, too. It could be great, on its own terms. But it wouldn't be Star Wars, so it should just be an original.

So, yes: if anyone's looking to make a Rogue Squadron series: they should be faithful to the original. Otherwise, don't bother. (Or make your idea, without tying it to SW.)

 

[Lord Sovereign]

Star Wars has a bit of cheer and fantasy to it even in its darkest moments. It isn't Warhammer 40k and that is a good thing.

 

[Bacle]

Personally I'd say the problem with modern fiction is the exact opposite. We, the consumer, are repeatedly blasted that you can only like a character if it superficially resembles you. If it conforms to your race, class, orientation ect.

Where as before heroes were meant more to inspire us rather than conform to us. So we can identify with Luke not because we have magical powers that elevate us above our peers but because of the universal traits of his heroism and his journey. His powers are a tool to that end, nothing more.


There is nothing "false' about Luke being a hero. Or Harry Potter. Or Superman. Heroism isn't defined by how closely said character adheres to our humdrum reality and if it was, if your potential was so limited, this world would be a much worse place for it.

Hero's don't inspire if they do not feel like they are at least superficially relatable to the common person, and most people are not going to relate to people with superpowers, even if it might make good cinema back in the day.

Mundanes need hero's too, and hero's they can actually relate to, not some super-special bullshit.

Very true. But then, Rogue Squadron works as a concept because it's fundamentally about those awesome fighter pilots doing heroic missions-- just like we saw in the last 20 minutes of ANH! It also has the benefit of being set right after RotJ (so its events can follow up on where that story left off, as far as the 'Rebels/Republic vs. Empire' thing is concerned). And it has some characters who at least appeared in the OT, and whose names we know (notably Wedge, but Ackbar periodically shows up as a supporting character, too). And it had a bit of 'Force stuff', with Corran, which was probably a smart move. (Not too much of it to derail the plot, but enough to reassure the audience that "this is Star Wars, for sure".)

We may contast this with a hypothetical scenario where we re-imagine it as a considerably more 'serious' and cynical revision of the concept. No 'heroic pilot' stories that are basically World War II adventure films IN SPACE, but instead a way more grim explorations of the difficult decisions men have to make in war. No heroes at all, but only morally compromised anti-heroes. No happy endings, only bleak realism. And no supernatural stuff! No sense of wonder! Only a sense of despair...

And I'd watch that series, too. It could be great, on its own terms. But it wouldn't be Star Wars, so it should just be an original.

So, yes: if anyone's looking to make a Rogue Squadron series: they should be faithful to the original. Otherwise, don't bother. (Or make your idea, without tying it to SW.)

The fact is, the Rebellion could not exist without more people like Andor, Luthen, and Mon Mothma, who do the morally compromising things necessary for there to be a Rebellion to join in ANH. I'll point you to Luthen's speech:



The fact is, it seems people don't want to think about all the dirty shit the Rebels would have had to do to survive till Yavin, don't like it being shown in non-kid-friendly ways (Rebels is a guilty of this, and infantalized the audience) and don't want any more moral greyness heaped into the Rebellion.

People need to stop trying to find an escape from the real world, and fiction that prepares people for how bad shit is and what nasty sort of shit usually has to happen to fight oppressive govs is stuff that helps prepare the youth for the future they likely face. The sooner kids realize that the world is not a nice place, never has been, and that 'morally clean hero's' are almost non-existent, the better prepared they are for later in life.

 

[Skallagrim]

Hero's don't inspire if they do not feel like they are at least superficially relatable to the common person, and most people are not going to relate to people with superpowers, even if it might make good cinema back in the day.

Mundanes need hero's too, and hero's they can actually relate to, not some super-special bullshit.

Which is why Hawkeye is the most popular Avenger by far, right?

To be clear: it's not that I don't agree with your basic point about "relatability" being a good thing; but you do use a very narrow view of what makes a character "relatable". You look at what powers they have, but that's not what makes characters relatable. It's their personality and the emotional impact of what they're going through. By your logic, films about heroic pilots should be "unrelatable" to 99% of viewers, because they're not ace pilots themselves-- so how the fuck can these "mundanes", these Joe-schmoes who've never even flown a plane, possibly relate?

You draw the line at super-powers, but that's an artificial distinction. Being an ace pilot is a super-power. Being a genius scientist or a brilliant detective or an expert neurosurgeon or a stellar Michelin chef... those are all super-powers that most of us don't have. Yet we can all relate to characters in those roles, if they're in a good story.

The fact is, the Rebellion could not exist without more people like Andor, Luthen, and Mon Mothma, who do the morally compromising things necessary for there to be a Rebellion to join in ANH. I'll point you to Luthen's speech:



The fact is, it seems people don't want to think about all the dirty shit the Rebels would have had to do to survive till Yavin, don't like it being shown in non-kid-friendly ways (Rebels is a guilty of this, and infantalized the audience) and don't want any more moral greyness heaped into the Rebellion.

People need to stop trying to find an escape from the real world, and fiction that prepares people for how bad shit is and what nasty sort of shit usually has to happen to fight oppressive govs is stuff that helps prepare the youth for the future they likely face. The sooner kids realize that the world is not a nice place, never has been, and that 'morally clean hero's' are almost non-existent, the better prepared they are for later in life.

That's all very interesting, but it's not Star Wars. If you try to make SW into this, because it's what you want more of... then you're no better than SJWs who put the things they want more of into SW. In both cases, it's an attempt to alter the thing to suit your personal preferences, instead of respecting the thing for what it is.

That's an issue we're dealing with in media a lot right now, and I can think of no example where the people doing the altering were in the right. They should've left the pre-existing thing alone, and they should've made a new thing of their own.

And if you really want a cynical, dark, edgy sci-fi drama full of horrible things and bleak lessons about reality... watch Dark Mirror or something. It exists. And it's about as unlike Star Wars as anything can possibly be, while still nominally existing in the same broader genre.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

Thing is, it isn't like cynical and dark can't work in Star Wars. I mean, just look at Revenge of the Sith and Empire Strikes Back. Star Wars can go to some grim places whilst still remaining itself.