Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind

[ShadowArxxy]

IMO, the thing that makes the Disney "90% drawdown" plausible is 1) this is explicitly the New Republic's "federal" navy, *not* including individual system forces, and 2) the Old Republic canonically had no federal military forces at all pre Clone Wars. The near-total scrapping and/or transfer to local control of the NRDF fleet is a plausible New Republic policy in the light of doubtless considerable political pressure to return to the pre-Clone-Wars-and-Galactic-Civil-War status quo.

It's a terribly stupid policy, but the New Republic is so consistently stupid in both old and new canons that frankly, I'd consider it unrealistic for them to have many policies that weren't stupid.

Then again, if I was living anywhere in the Star Wars galaxy, I'd be one of the voices calling for my home system to withdraw from the New Republic entirely in favor of neutrality and trade treaties only with other individual systems, with federal forces and especially Jedi explicitly unwelcome in our territory.

 

[Husky_Khan]

By the Schwarz are we having the exact same conversation we had thirty pages ago?

@ShadowArxxy -- once again you prove yourself a disturbingly dishonest hypocrite.




I've pointed out that you conflate "this is what the EU books cover" is not the same as "this is everything that happened". Which is why there are non-story sources, all canonical, that fill in the blanks. You accuse me of cherry-pickinging, but you're the one who wants to be highly selective in which sources you want to consider.



You eagely dismisses sources you don't like as "obscure", as if you're the great Canon Arbiter of what's more "true", when in reality, they're all equally true in-universe. You also use frequent weasel words, like the insane claim that Wookieepedia supposedly "admits" (GASP!) that the New Class modernisation programme only appers in a few books. It doesn't "admit" anything, you delusional tosser: it lists sources, like it does for every topic. But what have you done here, hoping nobody would notice? That's right, you've ignored all non-story sources that are listed:

-- Cracken's Threat Dossier
-- Starships of the Galaxy (+revisions & expansions)
-- The Essential Chronology (+revisions & expansions)
-- The Essential Guide to Warfare

Those are all canonical, too. They all support my view of a substantial NR fleet. You don't like that, because it makes your claims look stupid and wrong, so you ignore these source. Anything to avoid admitting that you've once again been caught peddling bullshit.



More intellectual dishonesty from you: these books mosly take place in the war-torn years right after Endor, with Coruscant being liberated half-way through. The Rebels really are still rebels at that stage. They only start setting up a functional government after Coruscant has been captured... at which point we do, in fact, see the series moving towards larger fleet engagements. (And in fact, the older heroes having a tough time getting out of the cockpit and accepting promition is a plot point.)



...Anyway, we're done here. You've lied so many times that any further debate is pointless. You always try to twist anything and everything to avoid admitting that you were wrong, and -- hilariously -- you are wrong ludicrously often. People call you out on your lies in every thread where you start peddling your idiosyncratic and dubious claims, but when confronted with facts... well, you lie, then you lie some more, and when your lies have been thoroughly deconstructed, you drop out of the thread for a few weeks. And then you come back, pretend it never happened, and repeat the same lies.

There's no use in any future conversation with you, so this'll be the final word from me. Looking at decomposing garbage would be a better use of my time than any future conversation with you.

 

[Skallagrim]

By the Schwarz are we having the exact same conversation we had thirty pages ago?

AhShitHereWeGoAgain.jpg


But anyway, I'm not going to follow the same circular argument again. Suffice to say, the New Republic wasn't retarded in the old EU, but some people love cherry-picking to try and make it seem like that. Which seems like a pointless waste of time to me, since "I want my personal fanon to be more true than canonical evidence AND I WANT EVERYONE TO BELIEVE ME" is a pretty weird fixation. Just write a fanfic and say that's your preferred alternative to canon.


--------------------------------------------


In general, the comparison between the New Republic in the two continuities (ignoring any debates based on cherry-picked numbers) is still a fascinating one. Because you get this amazing picture of how stupid everybody in the Disneyverse is.

After all, the old EU's New Republic steadily ground down the Imperials into dust despite heavy opposition, and then faced extra-galactic invasion... and survived that, too. (And then turned retarded when Denning took the wheel, but hey-- most people readily admit that those books were idiotic, along with all the characters in them.)

Meanwhile, Disney's New Republic totally pancaked from day one, instead of having decades of competence before author-induced mass retardation set in. (I guess it's no surprise, when the first post-Endor books are written by Chuck Wendig: an author so functionally impaired that he makes Troy Denning look like a veritable genius plot-crafter and word-smith.) The result is a New Republic that survived only due to its enemies self-immolating, and then got three decades of peace in which it was free to do anything it wanted (a luxury its old EU counterpart never got)... and did nothing, with the result being that its capital system was destroyed in an instant, and then the First Order (themselves a bunch of loopy morons from bumfucknowhere in the Unknown Regions) just conquered the galaxy in under a week... despite their superweapon having already been blown up on the day of its unveiling.

That's a pretty staggering difference. I've said before that if you dropped Daala into the Disneyverse, she'd wipe the floor with everyone. I've since concluded that you can drop practically any character from the old EU into the Disneyverse, and they'd be able to take over the galaxy pretty much immediately. I bet even some unbalanced karen like Ysanne Isard could manage it.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

Twenty to twenty-five Star Destroyer tier ships being the entire core strength for the NRDF is absurdly small. It’s also quite clearly explicit, for all that it contradicts other Legends material, but Legends material still had a very strong tendency for the NRDF being “mostly offscreen all the time” and/or being unwilling to commit major forces to things.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

After all, the old EU's New Republic steadily ground down the Imperials into dust despite heavy opposition, and then faced extra-galactic invasion... and survived that, too. (And then turned retarded when Denning took the wheel, but hey-- most people readily admit that those books were idiotic, along with all the characters in them.)

While I enjoyed reading the EU books immensely as a kid, there definitely is a plot hole (vaguely hand waved by a small timeskip) of how the Rebel Alliance post Endor became the New Republic seen in the Thrawn Trilogy books, which has a substantial base of recognition as a successor government and even with minimalist fleet sizes must have expanded substantially post Endor to be on par with even the minor warlords. Then again the strength of the warlords was always pretty much “whatever plot”.

The Alliance had maybe a dozen Mon Cal cruisers massed for Endor, the novelization says they massed everything they had at that point, and they lost… a lot of them to the DS 2.

 

[Skallagrim]

If only we had some awesome comics and books covering the gap between RotJ and HttE, and dealing specifically with military and political affairs. Such as...

X-Wing Rogue Squadron: The Rebel Opposition
X-Wing Rogue Squadron: The Phantom Affair
X-Wing: Rogue Leader
X-Wing: Rogue Squadron Special
X-Wing Rogue Squadron: Battleground Tatooine
X-Wing Rogue Squadron: The Warrior Princess
X-Wing Rogue Squadron: Requiem for a Rogue
X-Wing Rogue Squadron: In the Empire's Service
X-Wing Rogue Squadron: The Making of Baron Fel
X-Wing Rogue Squadron: Family Ties
X-Wing Rogue Squadron: Masquerade
X-Wing Rogue Squadron: Mandatory Retirement
X-wing #1: Rogue Squadron
X-wing #2: Wedge's Gamble
X-wing #3: The Krytos Trap
X-wing #4: The Bacta War
X-wing #5: Wraith Squadron
X-wing #6: Iron Fist
X-wing #7: Solo Command

So regrettable that those just don't exist. And that you can't read them, so you're just forced to conclude that there's some kind of gaping hole in between 4 ABY and 9 ABY. A gap totally not filled by books that could explain so much. Books that cover a lot of ground when it comes to the Rebellion evolving into a real government, and the uphill battles it fights along the way.

So sad. If only you could read those books. But alas.

Anyway, that's me done for today. I just can't take this much sadness, I'm afraid.

 

[Husky_Khan]

I can't believe how much is italicized for emphasis and here I thought I was weird for my habit of italicizing names of movies and books etc when I post on here. I don't notice it unless I'm in this thread apparently.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

As denoted by the very prominent "X-WING" titling in all of them, those books were heavily focused on a single starfighter squadron (two protagonist squadrons in total, but generally only one being featured at a time) and thus they do not actually cover the plot hole I'm talking about which was quite specifically about THE NDRF CAPITAL SHIP FLEET.

 

[Bacle]

I think the biggest difference in the Disney Canon is that Dathomir exist, yet Hapes has never been mentioned that I know of.

And they gifted the NR several SDs and escorts they had acquired over the years.

Also, no Corellian repulsors/Centerpoint, and no Ssi ruuk/Bakura either.

 

[Knowledgeispower]

As denoted by the very prominent "X-WING" titling in all of them, those books were heavily focused on a single starfighter squadron (two protagonist squadrons in total, but generally only one being featured at a time) and thus they do not actually cover the plot hole I'm talking about which was quite specifically about THE NDRF CAPITAL SHIP FLEET.

Alas probably need to use the essential guide to warfare and what the other books tell us about the main fleet when not focusing on the Rogues or Wraiths. Honestly they do as a whole show the NR fleet was gradually growing.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

Alas probably need to use the essential guide to warfare and what the other books tell us about the main fleet when not focusing on the Rogues or Wraiths. Honestly they do as a whole show the NR fleet was gradually growing.

In my opinion, the Thrawn Trilogy was hands down the best piece of the EU, the plot hole lies mostly in the time jump to the "established New Republic" portrayed on the books being too short for the nascent Alliance to have actually grown that much, both politically and militarily. However, I feel that the approach of leaving a time gap and not explicitly specifying fleet size was a more fundamentally sound one than Black Fleet Crisis which diverges from most EU in focusing on a more fleet-scale operation, but epically screwed up by giving explicit, canonical numbers that were comically tiny.

(As I said, I actually *like* the Nebula class; the problem is giving the NRDF so pathetically few of them, and making what they themselves described as a "pocket Star Destroyer" explicitly the largest and most powerful warship the NRDF fielded in its new fleet, versus making it their standard capital ship but keeping the already-named-elsewhere-in-canon bigger ships at least tacitly in play.)

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

That's a pretty staggering difference. I've said before that if you dropped Daala into the Disneyverse, she'd wipe the floor with everyone. I've since concluded that you can drop practically any character from the old EU into the Disneyverse, and they'd be able to take over the galaxy pretty much immediately. I bet even some unbalanced karen like Ysanne Isard could manage it.

What kind of twisted setting is this, that someone like Ysanne Isard would be as the Messiah should she show up therein?

 

[Crom's Black Blade]

(As I said, I actually *like* the Nebula class; the problem is giving the NRDF so pathetically few of them, and making what they themselves described as a "pocket Star Destroyer" explicitly the largest and most powerful warship the NRDF fielded in its new fleet, versus making it their standard capital ship but keeping the already-named-elsewhere-in-canon bigger ships at least tacitly in play.)

Well they likely did that because, outside of a very niche sub-set of EU fiction, the ISD *is* the largest and most powerful warship fielded by the Empire or anyone else in anything resembling appreciable numbers. Dwarfing both the Venerator and the Munificent-class which were the premier respective warships of the clonewars, the Rebellion's mainstays like the Nebulon-B Frigate or MC80 Star Cruiser, the Dreadnaught-class heavy cruiser ect. And in the span of three films and multiple space battles, we see the Empire field precisely 1 actual ship larger and it's in a flagship/command role rather than as a cruiser/battleship. And it actually does kind of poorly in the one time we actually see it forced to engage accomplishing nothing of note and being bitch slapped by the Rag-tag rebel fleet composed of nothing but ships smaller than an ISD.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

I think the biggest difference in the Disney Canon is that Dathomir exist, yet Hapes has never been mentioned that I know of.

And they gifted the NR several SDs and escorts they had acquired over the years.

Also, no Corellian repulsors/Centerpoint, and no Ssi ruuk/Bakura either.

If I recall correctly, Hapes essentially existed only in one book, the Courtship of Princess Leia, and pretty much was dropped out of continuity even in the EU other than incidental mentions as Tenel Ka's backstory. It even arguably makes sense in character; Hapes was highly isolationist and with the way their outreach to the New Republic blew up, they went back to isolationism as they had in the Old Republic and Imperial days.

Given that Courtship has Han literally kidnapping Leia with a mind-control device, there's definitely reason to pretty much doghouse the story.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

What kind of twisted setting is this, that someone like Ysanne Isard would be as the Messiah should she show up therein?

The problem with both Isard and Daala is they're basically both hit by the Worf Effect: they're introduced and described in-character as extremely competent Imperials, but the performance actually seen is comically incompetent due to the way the EU stories they're in are necessarily driven by act-of-plot hero gambits that they always, inevitably fall for.

Thrawn really does end up being the only actually competent Imperial because it was his entire character shtick and the stories killed him off rather than ever puncturing his strategic invincibility by defeating him.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

The problem with both Isard and Daala is they're basically both hit by the Worf Effect: they're introduced and described in-character as extremely competent Imperials, but the performance actually seen is comically incompetent due to the way the EU stories they're in are necessarily driven by act-of-plot hero gambits that they always, inevitably fall for.

Thrawn really does end up being the only actually competent Imperial because it was his entire character shtick and the stories killed him off rather than ever puncturing his strategic invincibility by defeating him.

Isn't this just a problem with Star Wars in general? Well, I say "in general", as Tarkin, Vader, Piett, Palpatine, and even Jerjerrod don't strike me as morons.

Actually, come to think of it, the Empire was vastly more competent in the Original Trilogy than outside of it.

 

[DarthOne]

I think the biggest difference in the Disney Canon is that Dathomir exist, yet Hapes has never been mentioned that I know of.

And they gifted the NR several SDs and escorts they had acquired over the years.

Also, no Corellian repulsors/Centerpoint, and no Ssi ruuk/Bakura either.

I blame TCW for messing up Dathomir and thus it’s lore.

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

The problem with both Isard and Daala is they're basically both hit by the Worf Effect: they're introduced and described in-character as extremely competent Imperials, but the performance actually seen is comically incompetent due to the way the EU stories they're in are necessarily driven by act-of-plot hero gambits that they always, inevitably fall for.

Thrawn really does end up being the only actually competent Imperial because it was his entire character shtick and the stories killed him off rather than ever puncturing his strategic invincibility by defeating him.

The thing about Daala is that she's actually fairly average as a commander. What she's actually good at is organization. Don't forget, she was the one who united the Imperial Remnant from a bunch of post-Byss warlords into a single coherent force. Pellaeon rightly gets the reputation of being the one who kept the Imperial Remnant relevant in the post-Galactic Civil War era until the rise of the Fels, but he essentially built on what Daala started. Daala killed the warlords, integrated their fractured forces together, and forced through certain necessary reforms (among others, allowing non-Humans to serve and removing restrictions on women when it comes to rank and position) that injected fresh blood and spirit into the Imperial Remnant.

And of course, she stepped down after she failed, graciously giving way to Pellaeon. Well, at least before the post-Yuuzhan Vong works dropped the ball...although even then, Daala still proves more competent or at least a more effective leader than any character in Disney Star Wars.

As for Ysane Isard...she's actually way less competent (?) than Daala, and is basically just a very good player in the games of Court. She subverted her father's authority, usurping Imperial Intelligence in a way enough to amuse/impress Darth Sidious that he basically just let her take her father's place ala Sith Rule of Two, and kept Imperial Intelligence independent from while also rivaling COMPNOR in influence. It comes as no surprise she wasn't really able to do more than slow down Ackbar leading the New Republic to victory in its early years.

That said, Isard, for all that she's basically just a very good courtier, is still more competent than any Disney Star Wars politician. For one thing, all those First Order spies, sleeper agents, and the like riddling the New Republic would have been found out in the first six months, tops, had Isard been in charge. By the end of the year, half of them would be dead in ways that wouldn't incriminate Isard, half of those left would have been turned into her agents, and the rest deliberately left alone to keep the First Order ignorant that Isard knows about them.

The First Order - and the rest of Disney Star Wars - is just that stupid.

 

[Bacle]

If I recall correctly, Hapes essentially existed only in one book, the Courtship of Princess Leia, and pretty much was dropped out of continuity even in the EU other than incidental mentions as Tenel Ka's backstory. It even arguably makes sense in character; Hapes was highly isolationist and with the way their outreach to the New Republic blew up, they went back to isolationism as they had in the Old Republic and Imperial days.

Given that Courtship has Han literally kidnapping Leia with a mind-control device, there's definitely reason to pretty much doghouse the story.

I seem to remember Hapes had a pretty big role in the NJO, and you'd think Disney would be all over a matriarchal government of high class pirates.

I blame TCW for messing up Dathomir and thus it’s lore.

Eh, the TCW stuff did change it a bit from being essentially unknown to just a place most people didn't want to go, along with the Nightsisters being more in touch with the rest of the galaxy pre-Empire than is suggested in Legends.

Fallen Order also added the Zeffo connection to Dathomir, which was interesting,

I just think that completely ignoring Hapes is igoring something that would actually fit Disney's stuff decently well.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

I seem to remember Hapes had a pretty big role in the NJO, and you'd think Disney would be all over a matriarchal government of high class pirates.

Eh, the TCW stuff did change it a bit from being essentially unknown to just a place most people didn't want to go, along with the Nightsisters being more in touch with the rest of the galaxy pre-Empire than is suggested in Legends.

Fallen Order also added the Zeffo connection to Dathomir, which was interesting,

I just think that completely ignoring Hapes is igoring something that would actually fit Disney's stuff decently well.

I haven't read all the NJO books, but judging from the Wookiepedia stuff, it's still mostly an indirect role via Tenel Ka. It's still highly isolationist and even when they send a fleet to help at a couple of points, Tenel is personally involved in a way that makes it appear to me that this is basically her "personal" household forces and not the actual Hapan military per se.