Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind

The morale shock of losing a second death star, the fleet and flagship protecting it, several admirals, Darth Vader, and the Emperor all at once would probably cause many Imperials to just surrender. The Imperials are not an ethnic group fighting to defend a homeland; their raison d'etre was the Emperor (ie fear, maybe some grandiose idea that they are part of some great empire that is only 20 years old, and a paycheck), who just got blown up. Some might rally behind some lesser Imperial officers, but given that the Emperor just got blown up by the rebels, and more planets are going to rally behind and support the Rebels given their triumph, your average Imperial probably won't be very optimistic about their chances and would be dissuaded from continuing on. The Imperials also don't lose anything from surrendering. It's not like the Rebels are vengeful and are going to burn their cities down and rape their women or stuff like that. In fact, Imperials could probably find new employment right away working for other planets' navies or the New Republic. Any Imperial remnant factions that would continue to fight on would be small.
 
The morale shock of losing a second death star, the fleet and flagship protecting it, several admirals, Darth Vader, and the Emperor all at once would probably cause many Imperials to just surrender. The Imperials are not an ethnic group fighting to defend a homeland; their raison d'etre was the Emperor (ie fear, maybe some grandiose idea that they are part of some great empire that is only 20 years old, and a paycheck), who just got blown up. Some might rally behind some lesser Imperial officers, but given that the Emperor just got blown up by the rebels, and more planets are going to rally behind and support the Rebels given their triumph, your average Imperial probably won't be very optimistic about their chances and would be dissuaded from continuing on. The Imperials also don't lose anything from surrendering. It's not like the Rebels are vengeful and are going to burn their cities down and rape their women or stuff like that. In fact, Imperials could probably find new employment right away working for other planets' navies or the New Republic. Any Imperial remnant factions that would continue to fight on would be small.
Which they sort of did, given many of these remnant factions either were destroyed by their own internal strife, internal sabotage (such as the Battle of Jakku) and massacres, or fleeing out to the Unknown Regions where they eventually coalesced into the First Order.
 
The morale shock of losing a second death star, the fleet and flagship protecting it, several admirals, Darth Vader, and the Emperor all at once would probably cause many Imperials to just surrender. The Imperials are not an ethnic group fighting to defend a homeland; their raison d'etre was the Emperor (ie fear, maybe some grandiose idea that they are part of some great empire that is only 20 years old, and a paycheck), who just got blown up. Some might rally behind some lesser Imperial officers, but given that the Emperor just got blown up by the rebels, and more planets are going to rally behind and support the Rebels given their triumph, your average Imperial probably won't be very optimistic about their chances and would be dissuaded from continuing on. The Imperials also don't lose anything from surrendering. It's not like the Rebels are vengeful and are going to burn their cities down and rape their women or stuff like that. In fact, Imperials could probably find new employment right away working for other planets' navies or the New Republic. Any Imperial remnant factions that would continue to fight on would be small.

This only makes sense in Disney canon, where Sidious is made into a one-dimensional control freak. In Legends, Sidious, while still something of a control freak, subtly encouraged his subordinates to form their own spheres of influence and pocket empires, such as COMPNOR (the Vandrons and old Human nobility), the Empire of the Hand (Thrawn's fief in the Unknown Regions), Imperial Intelligence (the Isards), the Imperial Ruling Council (Sate Pestage) even the Corporate Sector Authority, among others.

Hence, even when the Emperor died at Endor, the Empire didn't crumble like a house of sand, it fractured into warlord realms. That, and quite a lot of people in Legends did buy into the New Order, the memories of the crumbling final years of the Old Republic and the subsequent years-long bloodletting of the Clone Wars actually giving quite a fair bit of legitimacy to its promise of order and stability. Or, for that matter, the New Order actually did bring economic prosperity, something Leia herself admitted, if immediately countering that it did not justify political repression. In fact, Corellia explicitly fell into hard times after the rise of the New Republic.

Speaking of rebels not burning down cities...Legends Leia regretfully mentions in passing that when the New Republic swept into the Core Systems, there was quite a fair bit of vengeance killings and such going on. Many of them deserved it, like the Emperor's corps of professional torturers, but Leia bitterly recalled hearing of mass murder of palace staff on Coruscant, as in just simple maids, manservants, or even errand boys, simply because the rebel forces saw them as Imperial collaborators for working in the Imperial Palace.

It certainly didn't help that past a certain point, the New Republic once again started enacting Core-centric policies, plus bitter factionalism all too reminiscent of the pre-Clone Wars Old Republic. Together with Daala's unification and reformation of the Imperial Remnant, this allowed the Empire to eventually rise once again, and this time - ironically - with popular support from the Rim, which saw itself as betrayed and abandoned by the New Republic.
 
This only makes sense in Disney canon, where Sidious is made into a one-dimensional control freak. In Legends, Sidious, while still something of a control freak, subtly encouraged his subordinates to form their own spheres of influence and pocket empires, such as COMPNOR (the Vandrons and old Human nobility), the Empire of the Hand (Thrawn's fief in the Unknown Regions), Imperial Intelligence (the Isards), the Imperial Ruling Council (Sate Pestage) even the Corporate Sector Authority, among others.


You're forgetting that in the EU, Sidious *also* explicitly designed the Empire to fall apart without him; all those individual spheres of influence and pocket empires were *specifically* so that any ambitious subordinate would always be too bogged down with infighting against *their own* ambitious subordinates within their sphere of influence to ever hope to challenge the overall authority of the Emperor. And in the end it didn't matter because EU Sidious was going to not only make himself immortal, but also directly enslave literally every sentient being in the entire galaxy via Dark Side mind domination.

EU Sidious was *even more* of a one-dimensional control freak than Disney Sidious.
 
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It certainly didn't help that past a certain point, the New Republic once again started enacting Core-centric policies, plus bitter factionalism all too reminiscent of the pre-Clone Wars Old Republic. Together with Daala's unification and reformation of the Imperial Remnant, this allowed the Empire to eventually rise once again, and this time - ironically - with popular support from the Rim, which saw itself as betrayed and abandoned by the New Republic.
This was, however, completely realistic given that the "New Republic" was overwhelmingly controlled by the exact same Core World political factions as the Old Republic, on top of being generally incompetent so that the same familiar handful of Rebel heroes could solve all the problems.
 
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You're forgetting that in the EU, Sidious *also* explicitly designed the Empire to fall apart without him; all those individual spheres of influence and pocket empires were *specifically* so that any ambitious subordinate would always be too bogged down with infighting against *their own* ambbitious subordinates within their sphere of influence to ever hope to challenge the overall authority of the Emperor. And in the end it didn't matter because EU Sidious was going to not only make himself immortal, but also directly enslave literally every sentient being in the entire galaxy via Dark Side mind domination.

EU Sidious was *even more* of a one-dimensional control freak than Disney Sidious.

Well, yes, the ultimate goal was to revive the Sith Empire under Darth Vitiate, but while that was his intent, the Empire's warlord states did evolve (?) beyond Sidious' goals. The Empire of the Hand was ultimately assimilated into the Chiss Ascendancy, while the post-Byss warlord states eventually coalesced into a single Imperial Remnant that became the seed of the Fel Empire.
 
This was, however, completely realistic given that the "New Republic" was overwhelmingly controlled by the exact same Core World political factions as the Old Republic, on top of being generally incompetent so that the same familiar handful of Rebel heroes could solve all the problems.

Or for that matter, the New Republic's rank-and-file conducting a 'white terror' on the Core Systems around liberation time. Its leaders might have been good people with good goals, but that doesn't necessarily translate to every last one of their subordinates.
 
Or for that matter, the New Republic's rank-and-file conducting a 'white terror' on the Core Systems around liberation time. Its leaders might have been good people with good goals, but that doesn't necessarily translate to every last one of their subordinates.
The thing about the Rebel Alliance is that it's just that -- an alliance, largely of convenience, between a variety of anti-Imperial factions, and that included outright criminal and terrorist scum, corrupt Old Republic politicians who were *only* anti-Imperial because they were on the outside of the new power structures, idealists like Leia, disenfranchised Rimworlders, etc. And even the people who had "good" motives were desperate enough to often resort to extremely ruthless attacks -- hell, it's outright canon that the *standard* in the early Alliance days was starfighter-based cells conducting hit-and-fade raids on Imperial convoys, i.e. unrestricted submarine warfare against civilian shipping.

Unfortunately, the focus of the New Republic era EU stories being on "further adventures of your beloved fan-favorite heroes" meant the political aspects of the Republic never really got fleshed out at all. Not that I *dislike* the stories we got, but as I've said before, I would have loved to see a political thriller subseries in parallel with the adventures we got.
 
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Unfortunately, the focus of the New Republic era EU stories being on "further adventures of your beloved fan-favorite heroes" meant the political aspects of the Republic never really got fleshed out at all. Not that I *dislike* the stories we got, but as I've said before, I would have loved to see a political thriller subseries in parallel with the adventures we got.
At the very least, Mon Mothma in Legends didn't decide to disband 90% of the New Republic's military because "democracy doesn't need protecting". Even her successors, while Core-centric and factionalist, did work to keep the New Republic military at the cutting edge of the technological plateau, with such things as Viscount Class Star Defenders and E-Wing fighters, among others.

IIRC, during the Dark Nest Crisis, an Imperial veteran reflecting on his brief cooperation with the New Republic admitted to developing a respect for his former enemies, having witnessed their evolution from a ragtag bunch of skirmishers to a proper military. I doubt he'd have felt the same way towards the canon New Republic military.
 
Isn't a big reason the Imperial Remnants died in Disney canon Operation Cinder, where they indiscriminately bombed everything, apparently including their own troops and war materiel given The Mandolorian?

Granted the fact that they followed that order after Palpatine died is its own can of worms.
 
This was, however, completely realistic given that the "New Republic" was overwhelmingly controlled by the exact same Core World political factions as the Old Republic, on top of being generally incompetent so that the same familiar handful of Rebel heroes could solve all the problems.
Never really got that bit though. The NR fleet was at its heart built and largely staffed by Planets in the outer and middle Rim. That alone would give said worlds a massive massive say in the political process.
 
At the very least, Mon Mothma in Legends didn't decide to disband 90% of the New Republic's military because "democracy doesn't need protecting". Even her successors, while Core-centric and factionalist, did work to keep the New Republic military at the cutting edge of the technological plateau, with such things as Viscount Class Star Defenders and E-Wing fighters, among others.

IIRC, during the Dark Nest Crisis, an Imperial veteran reflecting on his brief cooperation with the New Republic admitted to developing a respect for his former enemies, having witnessed their evolution from a ragtag bunch of skirmishers to a proper military. I doubt he'd have felt the same way towards the canon New Republic military.
In Legends, the New Republic went out of its way to scrap every Super Star Destroyer it ever captured because the prevailing political belief became that it was somehow inherently immoral for any warship to be more powerful than a standard Star Destroyer.

(Granted, Legends was extremely inconsistent, but that became the standard explanation jn all later Legends canon for why the NRDF had no large capital ships of its own, why the NRDF fleets were so tiny, and why they were unable to field the Lusankaya as anything but a bizarro gambit ramming spike.)
 
In Legends, the New Republic went out of its way to scrap every Super Star Destroyer it ever captured because the prevailing political belief became that it was somehow inherently immoral for any warship to be more powerful than a standard Star Destroyer.

(Granted, Legends was extremely inconsistent, but that became the standard explanation jn all later Legends canon for why the NRDF had no large capital ships of its own, why the NRDF fleets were so tiny, and why they were unable to field the Lusankaya as anything but a bizarro gambit ramming spike.)
Yeah that was remarkably stupid, and I am all but certain it was done so that the stories could revolve around the sort of action and characters we got in the OT films. That and the X-wing books making starfighters the best at everything more or less.
 
In Legends, the New Republic went out of its way to scrap every Super Star Destroyer it ever captured because the prevailing political belief became that it was somehow inherently immoral for any warship to be more powerful than a standard Star Destroyer.

(Granted, Legends was extremely inconsistent, but that became the standard explanation jn all later Legends canon for why the NRDF had no large capital ships of its own, why the NRDF fleets were so tiny, and why they were unable to field the Lusankaya as anything but a bizarro gambit ramming spike.)
Still not nearly as stupid as the Disney New Republic disbanding 90% of their military, with what was left not even able to stand its ground against Outer Rim pirates.
 
That and, whilst they did maintain larger battle groups for fleet action, the main doctrine of the New Republic Navy is one of policing and protecting instead of the hammer blow after hammer blow approach of the Empire.

The thing is, in terms of policing, 99/100 a simple corvette with a squadron of X-Wings will do the job and do it well.
 
Never really got that bit though. The NR fleet was at its heart built and largely staffed by Planets in the outer and middle Rim. That alone would give said worlds a massive massive say in the political process.
Only in its early years, once the New Republic became settled into the Core Systems and the economic disruptions of the Empire's downfall settled down, the industrial powerhouses of Kuat, Corellia, Rendili, Empress Teta and others almost certainly began to exert their influence. Thing is, Dac is actually an exception rather than the rule in the Outer and Mid Rim, which is largely underdeveloped frontier.

That and, whilst they did maintain larger battle groups for fleet action, the main doctrine of the New Republic Navy is one of policing and protecting instead of the hammer blow after hammer blow approach of the Empire.

The thing is, in terms of policing, 99/100 a simple corvette with a squadron of X-Wings will do the job and do it well.

Not to mention the New Republic wasn't nearly as militarized as the Empire, and even without going to canon extremes, had a smaller military. Star Dreadnoughts like the Executor Class were manpower hogs, not to mention resource sinks. Star Destroyers are ultimately a better, more cost-efficient investment in the long-term. Even the Empire adopted this logic in the long-run, hence why even in the Legacy era their fleet's battleship core still used only Star Destroyers. It wasn't until Darth Krayt took over that construction of Star Dreadnoughts began again, and even then they only built one-off designs.
 
Honestly SSDs are a pretty good deal manpower wise compared to SDs in terms of what they bring to the battlefield. It's just that other than the Bellator and maybe the mediator they where very blunt tools
 
The morale shock of losing a second death star, the fleet and flagship protecting it, several admirals, Darth Vader, and the Emperor all at once would probably cause many Imperials to just surrender. The Imperials are not an ethnic group fighting to defend a homeland; their raison d'etre was the Emperor (ie fear, maybe some grandiose idea that they are part of some great empire that is only 20 years old, and a paycheck), who just got blown up. Some might rally behind some lesser Imperial officers, but given that the Emperor just got blown up by the rebels, and more planets are going to rally behind and support the Rebels given their triumph, your average Imperial probably won't be very optimistic about their chances and would be dissuaded from continuing on. The Imperials also don't lose anything from surrendering. It's not like the Rebels are vengeful and are going to burn their cities down and rape their women or stuff like that. In fact, Imperials could probably find new employment right away working for other planets' navies or the New Republic. Any Imperial remnant factions that would continue to fight on would be small.

The impression I get from the original EU (although SW as a whole is not very good at geo... uh, astro-political... analysis) is that there were several factors at play:

-- A lot of the high command was and remained dedicated even after Palpy died because 1) they were old enough to remember the chaos of the Clone Wars and from their (biased) perspective the Empire was definitely an improvement, and/or 2) the Empire actively selected for fanaticism, so even younger members of the really high ranks were in that position because they were ride-or-die for the New Order, or just very dedicated to authoritarianism in general.

-- A lot of the mid-level command actually did defect (that's where the Rebels got the bulk of their experienced leadership cadre), but the ones that remained were by default the really radical types. You see a lot of relatively young, fanatical Imperial commanders (often in the service of the aforementioned higher-ups), post-Endor. These are people raised and indoctrinated into the New Order from a young age. The Palpatinejugend all grown up, so to speak.

-- A lot of the rank-and-file stay because it's the only certainty they have. You stick with your commander because he says he'll keep the pay coming, or you risk going over and surrendering. But then what? The Republic hires good pilots, sure, but what do they need all those poorly-trained stormtroopers for? You'd have to get a job, and you're basically hard up for useful skills... so what's to become of you? New Republic's gonna bring back the free market, abolish the command economy... no way they're keeping a gazillion legions around. So you, stormtrooper 346365647445688, can look forward to unemployment and homelessness. Maybe best to stick with High General Fucktwit Arseholius III, Supreme Overlord of the Nether Brexbend Sector. It's shitty work, but at least it's work...

(And then later, when all the attempted resurgences have been tried, we get the impression that all that remains are the "unreconstructed few", following Pelleaon out into the sticks to set up the Remnant. By that point, the Imps hold eight sectors. So, yeah... on a galactic scale, not many of them left.)



...Of course, this process of whittling down the Imperials to the small remnant took a good fifteen years, and there were several times where Imperial attempts at reconquest nearly succeeded in gobbling up at least major segments of the galaxy. They were shattered successor states, but they were well-armed, and the realities of the situation meant that they soon became pretty meritocratic (as tends to happen, when failure means death; the stupid warlords fell quickly, the smart ones lasted).

In Disney's time-line, meanwhile, everybody is incredibly stupid for absolutely no good reason.
 
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That and, whilst they did maintain larger battle groups for fleet action, the main doctrine of the New Republic Navy is one of policing and protecting instead of the hammer blow after hammer blow approach of the Empire.

The thing is, in terms of policing, 99/100 a simple corvette with a squadron of X-Wings will do the job and do it well.

The thing is, the NRDF was then laid out in canon to be ludicrously tiny. The NRDF's Nebula-class Star Destroyers are a logical design, with more advanced technology and a better-optimized hull layout permitting a ship of roughly two-thirds the size to be on par with the classic Star Destroyers. . .

. . . except this is explicitly stated to be the most powerful warship class in the NRDF's modernized fleet, and the NRDF had...ten of them in 17 ABY, with further production of just one ship per year expected to fill out the production run of the modernization program which was complete by 20 ABY. In other words, they had at most twelve or thirteen ISD-tier ships as their entire capital line force.

Worse, the NRDF's *entire fleet* post-modernization, explicitly their entire fleet, is stated to consist of exactly five fleets, with the largest and most powerful of these (whose entire existence was seen as controversial) being the rapid-reaction Fifth Fleet with. . . one named Nebula and two of its Endurance class carrier cousins, with a fleet-wide total of exactly five combined Nebula and Endurance class, with one acting as flagship to each of its five component task groups. This is explicitly Fifth Fleet's *only* Star Destroyer tier component, as Fifth is said to consist *solely* of new-fleet designs with zero legacy ships.

(In other words, even assuming that Fifth Fleet being larger and more powerful than the other numbered NRDF fleets referred solely to strength in lesser ships, the entire NRDF is explicitly, canonically indicated to have on the order of 25 Star Destroyer tier vessels and zero above Star Destroyer tier vessels.)

And all this was in Black Fleet Crisis, the largest scale portrayal of the New Republic Fleet in the entire EU/Legends, and specifically notable for being one of the only Legends works that ever had any level of "major fleet action" in it!

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As absurd as Disney's "90% drawdown" for the NRDF is, it's arguably less absurd than the Legends version, where the NRDF was just as small while actively fighting the Galactic Civil War, with the Imperial Starfleet that had twenty five thousand ships of ISD class alone largely vanishes in a puff of plotmagic.
 
The thing is, the NRDF was then laid out in canon to be ludicrously tiny. The NRDF's Nebula-class Star Destroyers are a logical design, with more advanced technology and a better-optimized hull layout permitting a ship of roughly two-thirds the size to be on par with the classic Star Destroyers. . .

. . . except this is explicitly stated to be the most powerful warship class in the NRDF's modernized fleet, and the NRDF had...ten of them in 17 ABY, with further production of just one ship per year expected to fill out the production run of the modernization program which was complete by 20 ABY. In other words, they had at most twelve or thirteen ISD-tier ships as their entire capital line force.

Worse, the NRDF's *entire fleet* post-modernization, explicitly their entire fleet, is stated to consist of exactly five fleets, with the largest and most powerful of these (whose entire existence was seen as controversial) being the rapid-reaction Fifth Fleet with. . . one named Nebula and two of its Endurance class carrier cousins, with a fleet-wide total of exactly five combined Nebula and Endurance class, with one acting as flagship to each of its five component task groups. This is explicitly Fifth Fleet's *only* Star Destroyer tier component, as Fifth is said to consist *solely* of new-fleet designs with zero legacy ships.

(In other words, even assuming that Fifth Fleet being larger and more powerful than the other numbered NRDF fleets referred solely to strength in lesser ships, the entire NRDF is explicitly, canonically indicated to have on the order of 25 Star Destroyer tier vessels and zero above Star Destroyer tier vessels.)

And all this was in Black Fleet Crisis, the largest scale portrayal of the New Republic Fleet in the entire EU/Legends, and specifically notable for being one of the only Legends works that ever had any level of "major fleet action" in it!

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As absurd as Disney's "90% drawdown" for the NRDF is, it's arguably less absurd than the Legends version, where the NRDF was just as small while actively fighting the Galactic Civil War, with the Imperial Starfleet that had twenty five thousand ships of ISD class alone largely vanishes in a puff of plotmagic.
Of course as always books and sources are eternally contradicting each other. Because we also have stuff like MC90s, the MC80s still being around and still being fairly common and a lot of captured Imperial ships and new builds of the those types plus stuff like Bulkwark IIIs,or how numerous Botham assault cruisers got, and later on Mon Cal Heavy carriers, Mediators, Viscount, ect.
Yeah its basically impossible to figure out NR military size because the writers did a bad job
 

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