Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind

While I agree that planning things out a bit more has its advantages, the chaotic nature of the Bantam era resulted in a lot of different directions and ideas. The issue was that it wasn't very coherent, and had to be fitted into a narrative after the fact. (Which was actually pretty capably done, so kudos for that.) I fear that a planned-out approach often runs the risk of being even more monotonous, which would exacerbate rather than alleviate the particular problem that @DarthOne raised.

Despite some really weird books, I think the Bantam era (which corresponds to the warlord period, concluding with the peace treaty in 19 ABY) is overall a realistic take on the post-Imperial chaos and its various challenges. And @Lord Invictus correctly points out that the warlord struggle is pretty much over by 12 ABY, when Daala's reconstituted fleet is soundly defeated at Yavin. After that, the Remnant is fighting a losing battle, has to withdraw to the fringes of the galaxy, and is reduced to a minor power. It just takes another six years for them to finally accept that they've lost.

The "OH NOES THRAWN IS BACK!!!11!" plot always struck me as somewhat silly. It's even mentioned that "Thrawn was good, but not that good". The idea of his supposed return throwing everybody into a panic is not realistic. (And is an early example of Zahn's increasing tendency to turn Thrawn into an invincible superperson.) Nevertheless, the fact that the plot fails, and things end peacefully is enough to make it all okay. Things are finally in order, fifteen years after Endor. That's a realistic time-frame for a period like that.

Overall, I don't think that judging the whole timeline based on a chronology in a guide-book is really fair. Especially since said judgement contains clear inaccuracies (e.g. "most of Luke's students being massacred "; "Jaina goes evil"). Yes, NJO has some bleak shit in it. Sometimes too much of it for my liking. But just reading an outline does kind of gloss over the crucial fact that it was going somewhere. It was not -- I repeat: NOT -- some 40k-like ultra-grimdark story with an eternal bleakness as the status quo. It went to dark places in order to then ascend back into the light of hope. Whereas we might see the OT films as coming down to personal redemption, the NJO series elevated that concept to a galactic scale. The whole point is that the war seems hopeless at times, and the Vong seem like monsters without redeeming qualities, and there are easy choices that involve moral short-cuts...

...and instead, the morally just path leads to a redemption arc for the entire species.

I really think that Stover and Luceno in particular had such an excellent grasp on the underlying ethics and metaphysics that they managed to really express something amazing in the NJO series. So despite that fact that it has flaws, and the fact tht I would have done certain things very differently... it's not fair to treat it like something it's definitely not.
I mean yeah, the bantam era wasn’t planned out like the NJO was, but the content was rarely contradictory except again for things like Zahn not liking the idea of Mara banging Lando. I think the 15 year period IU works well, the empire, various minor alien threats, the first corellian rebellion, and the refounding of the Jedi.
 
We are now on page 66 of this thread. Time to kill all the Jedi.


....Anyway, regarding the post-Endor EU: yeah, things did work out fairly well. Most stories were pretty self-contained, so the continuity was fairly decent (not that many contradictions or weird errors). Even characterisation was usually okay to good, because authors could just have established characters act like themselves. The really big draw-back was lack of character development. Despite facing issues in a particular book or trilogy, every character's personality sort of returned to default by the end of that work.

In that light, Zahn did a fairly decent job hashing that exact issue out, and actually treating it as an in-universe problem. Luke really is "stuck in a certain place", and has to move past that. It comes across as a bit forced (since his whole character journey is now reduced to a series of conversations with Mara while they trek through those caves), but considering the constraints, it was as made credible as it could be. My own irritation with it comes from Zahn's insistence on using the opportunity to forcibly retcon whatever he happened to really dislike, and to take a few cheap shots at some other authors. (Which, yeah, veers into the quasi-pathetic when he hurries to retcon Mara's relationship with Lando out of existence. Yeah, we know you want her to end up with Luke. Cool. Luke had some previous relationships, too, you know...)

On the other hand, the way some authors wrote Mara was irritating. I read the Thrawn trilogy at an impressionable age, and I figured that, yeah, Luke and Mara would end up together. But first, we'd see them be friends for a few years, right? While they slowly realised how well they really worked together. That was obviously the plan. But some people apparently didn't get that. Which led to some weird stuff, like Han and Leia still thinking Mara is probably evil in 18 ABY. You know, almost a decade after the last time she expressed anything close to an antagonistic sentiment, during which decade she repeatedly saved their lives. That's just weird.

So I can understand some of Zahn's irritation, and his urge to make damn sure that Luke and Mara end up together, as he intended from the start. But really... if he was so unhappy about what other writers were doing, why didn't he just write a book set in 15 ABY or something, using that to lay the ground-work for Luke and Mara to end up together a bit later? It's not like Bantam and LucasFilm would've said "no" if he'd proposed another book in the mid-nineties...
 
I don’t have a problem with the gap in them getting married or them having other romances in between. I think it honestly adds a kind of pathos to it, a beauty of destiny.
 
I've done a little online reading on how the NJO ended.

As I understand it, the planet that made Anakin and Obi-Wan's organic ship, the Jabitha, turns out to be the Vong's god or something and it took away their Force connection long ago. The heroes of NJO rediscover that planet... and it teleports away the Vong to a different galaxy. The end.

Doesn't that seem rather unsatisfactory? Like, the heroes lost so much. Their galaxy has been totalled. The New Republic they built has been pretty much destroyed. Their homes are gone, many of their friends and loved one have been killed. They struggled so hard against the Vong, fighting and fighting and losing and searching for ways to win but nothing is working... and then the Vong just get taken away.

No catharsis of triumphing over the enemy, not even forcing the enemy to an armstice. No vindication for your struggle. All your left with is the bodies of your friends and family and the smoking ruins of your homes... if those planets are even still habitable, that is. I'm not opposed to bittersweet endings, but that has to be a kick in the groin for anyone who had read 19 books of this story hoping for a cathartic, happy ending at the end. It seems like there is no upside to the ending at all.
 
As I understand it, the planet that made Anakin and Obi-Wan's organic ship, the Jabitha, turns out to be the Vong's god or something and it took away their Force connection long ago. The heroes of NJO rediscover that planet... and it teleports away the Vong to a different galaxy. The end.
That’s not what happened at all?

Zonama is the Vong’s home world or rather a child of that homeworld. A seed you might say.

The Vong by treaty are obligated to dispose of their weapons and assist in the reconstruction(as well as dealing with holdouts), and then they go into exile there.

In a lot of ways, the Vong achieve their own redemption and find Eden again.
 
I've done a little online reading on how the NJO ended.

As I understand it, the planet that made Anakin and Obi-Wan's organic ship, the Jabitha, turns out to be the Vong's god or something and it took away their Force connection long ago. The heroes of NJO rediscover that planet... and it teleports away the Vong to a different galaxy. The end.

Doesn't that seem rather unsatisfactory? Like, the heroes lost so much. Their galaxy has been totalled. The New Republic they built has been pretty much destroyed. Their homes are gone, many of their friends and loved one have been killed. They struggled so hard against the Vong, fighting and fighting and losing and searching for ways to win but nothing is working... and then the Vong just get taken away.

No catharsis of triumphing over the enemy, not even forcing the enemy to an armstice. No vindication for your struggle. All your left with is the bodies of your friends and family and the smoking ruins of your homes... if those planets are even still habitable, that is. I'm not opposed to bittersweet endings, but that has to be a kick in the groin for anyone who had read 19 books of this story hoping for a cathartic, happy ending at the end. It seems like there is no upside to the ending at all.
Which sums up why so many of us didn't like it.
 
Whether one loves the series or not, "the Vong get teleported to another galaxy", "everything is still wrecked", "no catharsis of triumphing over the enemy" and "not even forcing the enemy to an armstice" is simply not what happens.

The one person who manipulated the enite Vong invasion from the start (for his own perverse ends) is dramatically defeated. In the process, the Jedi achieve a new and greater understanding of the Force. A powerful moral message about doing right even when opposed by things that are wrong is brought home. The Vong surrender unconditionally, and there is a great evolution within theirsociety (which already started during the war) away from their misguided fanaticism. Zonama Sekot accepts them, and thus they get a chance to re-embrace the innocence that they had previously lost (which caused the current state of affairs to begin with). The Vong, by treaty, will provide substantial aid to rebuild the damage they have caused. They don't just get teleported far away, but stay in the galaxy, with Zonama Sekot as their new homeworld.

Again, there are elements in the story that I'm not fond of, but to claim that this is a story with no catharsis, you have to completely ignore the ending. The Unifying Force is basically "Catharsis, Redemption and Healing: the Book".
 
I’ve elaborated about this before on another forum, but the Vong’s ending is extremely hopeful. They were cut off from their origin and Mother as it were, and now they are returning, they are going home to Eden.

You could argue the NJO is less about the Sky Solo clan and its associates and more about the redemption of the Vong as a species.

Which I have argued for in the past.

They were lost, spiritually broken and in a state of sin or ignorance. When they return to Zonama, its basically equivalent to humanity getting access again to the Tree of Life, in the Book of Revelation.

@Skallagrim the NJO is the story of the redemption of the Children of Yuuzhan'tar. They were lost and they found their Home again. I think that's a beautiful and accurate view of the text, would you agree?
 
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The "OH NOES THRAWN IS BACK!!!11!" plot always struck me as somewhat silly. It's even mentioned that "Thrawn was good, but not that good". The idea of his supposed return throwing everybody into a panic is not realistic. (And is an early example of Zahn's increasing tendency to turn Thrawn into an invincible superperson.) Nevertheless, the fact that the plot fails, and things end peacefully is enough to make it all okay. Things are finally in order, fifteen years after Endor. That's a realistic time-frame for a period like that.

To be fair, Thrawn did a very good job of intentionally portraying himself as invincible during his lifetime. In my opinion, the most realistic take on Thrawn is that the entire artwork thing is entirely a contrivance; he's "merely" an exceptionally skilled tactician backed up by skilled military intelligence, but he's created this entire legend about being able to defeat enemies by hyper-psychoanalysis to intimidate and demoralize the New Republic.
 
To be fair, Thrawn did a very good job of intentionally portraying himself as invincible during his lifetime. In my opinion, the most realistic take on Thrawn is that the entire artwork thing is entirely a contrivance; he's "merely" an exceptionally skilled tactician backed up by skilled military intelligence, but he's created this entire legend about being able to defeat enemies by hyper-psychoanalysis to intimidate and demoralize the New Republic.
That sure makes more sense than the fairly absurd "I can predict what you'll do by studying your culture's art!"
 
Hey, I LIKE Thrawn’s art-thing!
It's fitting in a planet-of-the-hats style setting (which SW is, to some extent) but we can still point out that there's no way it could really work.

Well, it could, but only if you apply a far broader method and study the whole history and development of a particular culture's art, in order to understand how and why styles and movements even evolved, in order to determine what they represent. And you probably need to familiarise yourself with the actual context in which prevalent artistic motifs arose, and learn not just that they are important, but why. At which point it turns into more of an analysis of cultural history...
 
I think it’s more using art to understand the base nature and mechanisms of a species’ psychology? The art simply allows Thrawn to understand a species’ behavior. Or rather their innate patterns of behavior.

In a galaxy with millions of species these differences, will be readily accessible and observable. And this will be noted in their art. Do Duros have the same aesthetic standards as Hutts? Likely not due to a different physiology and neurological make up. Geonosians and Shistavenen interact with their environment and react to external stimuli in very different ways, this will be apparent in their artwork.

Using art, Thrawn gains a window into a species “basic mind hardware” as it were. Or at least an approximation of it.

Which allows him to predict their behavior.
 
Art History... It's reputable!

I really love the idea of Art History Major Thrawn sitting in class, studying intensely. Like, way, way too intensely then is reasonable for Cubes in Mid-Rim Surrealism 101. And inside his head he's just stewing over all the comments people have made. "That's a waste of credits Thrawn, why don't you get a real education? There's no jobs in that Thrawn, I hope you're at least taking some food service courses on the side. You're not going to get any marketable skills there Thrawn, I better not here you whing about student loan debt."

And he's just sitting there, vowing that some day he'll show them otherwise, they'll regret ever doubting him.
 
I mean to be fair, coming from one of the Chiss noble families IIRC, Thrawn could probably study whatever he liked. For the most part.

I honestly picture a young studying Thrawn as a bookish boy with not too many friends. Not quite a "billy no mates" you understand, but he'd be one of those people without a large social circle. But that would suit him just nicely. Thrawn doesn't seem like one for parties.

Speaking of probably one of the greater military minds in fiction (Lelouch Vi Britannia can go fuck himself), I really feel like Star Wars Rebels did him dirty. I mean come on, him getting carried off to God knows where by tentacle monsters after being beaten by Scooby Doo and the gang just makes my blood boil.
 

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