Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind

[Skallagrim]

It may have looked cool... but man the implications

Consistency doesn't matter under Disney. It's all short-term "is this cool?" with zero regard for the implications and ultimate effects on the story or setting. Story-telling is mostly a lost art, these days, as is world-building.

I bid you dark greetings? Did someone confuse The term sith with demon worshiper.

Wait until you hear about the Mofference. Or the Leia-bot that shoots lasers from her eyes. (I'm not joking.)

But the point is: despite some turds like these, the EU worked, and achieved an amazing degree continuity across decades of works by countless people, because there were folks who cared. Exactly the opposite of what's happening under Disney.

It's all thanks to the tiered system of canon. Basically, anything contradicted by higher-ranking stuff is non-canonical. And almost the entire timeline of the Jedi Prince books is completely tossed out of the window by all other sources mentioning the relevant period. It literally couldn't have happened... so by the rules of the old EU, almost everything in those books is non-canonical.

Idiots at Buzzfeed and such garbage sites had an axe to grind with the old EU, mostly because they were told to shill for Disney, back when the sequels were announced/made. So they wrote a lot of dishonest articles pretending that tiered canon didn't exist, and that we should take the silly outliers of the EU seriously... and that the whole EU should be discounted because of that.

Some of those articles even mentioned "Skippy the Jedi droid". A joke character from a joke comic that was never canonical.

These people have no shame. No brains, either.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

I bid you dark greetings? Did someone confuse The term sith with demon worshiper.

One of the. . . signature writing peculiarities of Glove of Darth Vader was that the Prophets of the Dark Side tended to say "DARK this, DARK that, DARK the other!" , and this was *not* portrayed as comedic. Although the retcon of the Prophets of the Dark Side as Imperial agents who were not even Force sensitive but had been taught enough Sith lore by Palpatine to fake it does retroactively make it even more silly.

Just to make it clear that this was a weird bad writer thing and not specifically a writing-the-Sith thing, the "secular" half of the story villains, the Central Committee of Grand Moffs similarly had moff this, moff that.

 

[DarthOne]

One of the. . . signature writing peculiarities of Glove of Darth Vader was that the Prophets of the Dark Side tended to say "DARK this, DARK that, DARK the other!" , and this was *not* portrayed as comedic. Although the retcon of the Prophets of the Dark Side as Imperial agents who were not even Force sensitive but had been taught enough Sith lore by Palpatine to fake it does retroactively make it even more silly.

Just to make it clear that this was a weird bad writer thing and not specifically a writing-the-Sith thing, the "secular" half of the story villains, the Central Committee of Grand Moffs similarly had moff this, moff that.

Keep beating that dead horse buddy…

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

Or the Leia-bot that shoots lasers from her eyes. (I'm not joking.)

First of all when did Star Wars turn into marvel? second of all do you know how many times a life model Decoy would have come in handy in Star Wars, especially a heavily weaponized one?

the point is: despite some turds like these, the EU worked, and achieved an amazing degree continuity across decades of works by countless people, because there were folks who cared. Exactly the opposite of what's happening under Disney.

It's all thanks to the tiered system of canon. Basically, anything contradicted by higher-ranking stuff is non-canonical. And almost the entire timeline of the Jedi Prince books is completely tossed out of the window by all other sources mentioning the relevant period. It literally couldn't have happened... so by the rules of the old EU, almost everything in those books is non-canonical.

Idiots at Buzzfeed and such garbage sites had an axe to grind with the old EU, mostly because they were told to shill for Disney, back when the sequels were announced/made. So they wrote a lot of dishonest articles pretending that tiered canon didn't exist, and that we should take the silly outliers of the EU seriously... and that the whole EU should be discounted because of that.

Some of those articles even mentioned "Skippy the Jedi droid". A joke character from a joke comic that was never canonical.

These people have no shame. No brains, either.

err to be fair I really started to notice a decline in the EUs quality in the 2010s. The Old Republic: Revan was essentially The Last Jedi: Old Republic Edition and a huge middle finger to fans of the games despite trying to make Revan look tougher (and failing miserably.) and the introduction of Abeloth in Fate of the Jedi was when I decided that the EU had officially ran out of ideas original guard and they needed to pass on the torch to a new era and set of characters. (legacy was vastly underrated in hindsight) but I mean we're talking about the EU literally in the last few years right before Disney bought it compared to 20-30 years of content prior over several different mediums.

One of the. . . signature writing peculiarities of Glove of Darth Vader was that the Prophets of the Dark Side tended to say "DARK this, DARK that, DARK the other!" , and this was *not* portrayed as comedic. Although the retcon of the Prophets of the Dark Side as Imperial agents who were not even Force sensitive but had been taught enough Sith lore by Palpatine to fake it does retroactively make it even more silly.

Wouldn't it make more sense to have just made these guys a different faction rather than fake out decoys? A group of highly intelligent non-force sensitive scholars and archeologists that happen to be interested in sith culture doesn't seem that out there. I mean look at real-world scholars out there.

 

[Skallagrim]

First of all when did Star Wars turn into marvel? second of all do you know how many times a life model Decoy would have come in handy in Star Wars, especially a heavily weaponized one

Well, technically, the first stuff that wasn't ANH or its novelisation was published by Marvel. The really low-quality comic that started being published right after ANH's release and kept going until some time after RotJ's release. It was... not good. That was before there was even any idea of a real expanded universe. So a lot of the stuff in that comic serial is non-canonical, too.

But, yeah-- Marvel was always there. But these books had nothing to do with that, They were just weird.

err to be fair I really started to notice a decline in the EUs quality in the 2010s. The Old Republic: Revan was essentially The Last Jedi: Old Republic Edition and a huge middle finger to fans of the games despite trying to make Revan look tougher (and failing miserably.) and the introduction of Abeloth in Fate of the Jedi was when I decided that the EU had officially ran out of ideas original guard and they needed to pass on the torch to a new era and set of characters.

That's true. At some point, they had mostly run out of ideas. I still say The Unifying Force (2003) is a good ending point for the post-RotJ stuff, but obviously, good things were still being put out for other eras.



P.S. I think something went wrong with your quotes in that last post.

 

[Bacle]

Let me politely remind people to not get too much rose-colored glasses in regards to pre-Disney Star Wars content by reminding them of 1) The Holiday Special, 2) The Glove of Darth Vader, 3) I, Jedi.

You gonna shit-talk I, Jedi?

Really...

Like, Glove of Darth Vader I read and enjoyed, but barely registered as canon.

I, Jedi was acknowledged as canon in both the Hand of Thrawn Duology and the later works (even if it was mostly the Horn family suffering a trauma conga line).

And this after you already were completely dismissive of the Black Fleet Series.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

Well, technically, the first stuff that wasn't ANH or its novelisation was published by Marvel. The really low-quality comic that started being published right after ANH's release and kept going until some time after RotJ's release. It was... not good. That was before there was even any idea of a real expanded universe. So a lot of the stuff in that comic serial is non-canonical, too.

But, yeah-- Marvel was always there. But these books had nothing to do with that, They were just weird.



That's true. At some point, they had mostly run out of ideas. I still say The Unifying Force (2003) is a good ending point for the post-RotJ stuff, but obviously, good things were still being put out for other eras.



P.S. I think something went wrong with your quotes in that last post.

as much as I hated it when I was younger I fully admit I gave The Legacy comic series WAY too much crap.

 

[Skallagrim]

I, Jedi was acknowledged as canon in both the Hand of Thrawn Duology and the later works (even if it was mostly the Horn family suffering a trauma conga line).

I, Jedi is a great book. Corran is a bit of a Gary Stu author-insert at times, but this book is actually the one that eventually deconstructs that a bit near the end. And it was a really clever way to re-interpret a few of the weaker parts of the Jedi Academy books with an alternative in-universe viewpoint.

And this after you already were completely dismissive of the Black Fleet Series.

Granted, these ones weren't as well written and have some weird characterisation, but overall a solid adventure. Absolutely no grounds to question the canonicity at all.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

You gonna shit-talk I, Jedi?

Look, I overall *enjoyed* I, Jedi. But it's also the point where Stackpole effectively hijacked his own Rogue Squadron series with an incredibly blatant Mary Sue Jedi character, and it contains some of the most utterly cringe bits of bad technical writing in all of Star Wars.

As in, Horn built a lightsaber with rotating optical lenses like a microscope, and moreover, this lightsaber temporarily worked with a fake diamond as the focusing crystal. I, Jedi literally made it canon that you could build a functional lightsaber with the Star Wars version of cubic zirconia.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

Keep beating that dead horse buddy…

Hey, he specifically asked!

 

[ShadowArxxy]

First of all when did Star Wars turn into marvel? second of all do you know how many times a life model Decoy would have come in handy in Star Wars, especially a heavily weaponized one?

Human Replica Droids were subsequently seen in several other Star Wars works, most notably as the personal bodyguard of the Black Sun cartel's Prince Xixor. The terribly bad writing of Glove of Darth Vader, however, included an explicit declaration that the Leia-bot's eye weapons had a power output equivalent to an Atgar 1.4, i.e. the freaking light anti-vehicle cannons used in the Battle of Hoth.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

Human Replica Droids were subsequently seen in several other Star Wars works, most notably as the personal bodyguard of the Black Sun cartel's Prince Xixor. The terribly bad writing of Glove of Darth Vader, however, included an explicit declaration that the Leia-bot's eye weapons had a power output equivalent to an Atgar 1.4, i.e. the freaking light anti-vehicle cannons used in the Battle of Hoth.

Can't help but think that would have been helpful in a fight against Vader.

 

[StormEagle]

Consistency doesn't matter under Disney. It's all short-term "is this cool?" with zero regard for the implications and ultimate effects on the story or setting. Story-telling is mostly a lost art, these days, as is world-building.



Wait until you hear about the Mofference. Or the Leia-bot that shoots lasers from her eyes. (I'm not joking.)

But the point is: despite some turds like these, the EU worked, and achieved an amazing degree continuity across decades of works by countless people, because there were folks who cared. Exactly the opposite of what's happening under Disney.

It's all thanks to the tiered system of canon. Basically, anything contradicted by higher-ranking stuff is non-canonical. And almost the entire timeline of the Jedi Prince books is completely tossed out of the window by all other sources mentioning the relevant period. It literally couldn't have happened... so by the rules of the old EU, almost everything in those books is non-canonical.

Idiots at Buzzfeed and such garbage sites had an axe to grind with the old EU, mostly because they were told to shill for Disney, back when the sequels were announced/made. So they wrote a lot of dishonest articles pretending that tiered canon didn't exist, and that we should take the silly outliers of the EU seriously... and that the whole EU should be discounted because of that.

Some of those articles even mentioned "Skippy the Jedi droid". A joke character from a joke comic that was never canonical.

These people have no shame. No brains, either.

At least the worst parts of the old EU are kinda hilarious in hindsight.

Rat Wars doesn’t even have that going for it.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

Can't help but think that would have been helpful in a fight against Vader.

Oooops, he deflected it into your buddies. Let's face it, Vader is basically invincible death on the tactical scale.

 

[Emperor Tippy]

So random Star Wars peeves:
Conflating the Light Side and the Jedi.

A Light Side Force User can love, have attachments, raise a family, and generally be a "normal" person without much issue. You can use the Light Side of the Force for petty bullshit and to play with.

A Jedi can't.

Jedi are individuals trusted and empowered by the Republic with the power of High, Middle, and Low justice. They are expected to walk into situations that threaten galactic stability and render a fair judgement for the good of all, and they are trusted in this role.

For a Jedi, attachments are a weakness. They can be kidnapped, threatened, or otherwise manipulated to cause the Jedi to act (or not act). A Jedi with wealth creates the perception that the Jedi is acting in consideration of their own, personal, interests instead of the interests of the Republic.

A Jedi with personal motivations and desires beyond serving the Republic to the best of their ability is basically an existential threat to the Republic because of the trust that comes inherent in being a Jedi.

A Jedi is one among ten thousand or so in a galaxy of quadrillions. Every time a Jedi acts, they are choosing not to act on ten thousand other problems that they might instead choose to interfere with.

Jedi are also exposed to the worst situations and circumstances that the galaxy has to offer. Whatever else they are, they are also effectively the highest level police force of the Republic and so get missions to investigate the worst and most powerful criminal cartels. A Jedi needs to be able to walk through a den of sex slaves being raped and not act if that is what serves the Republics long term interests.

You average Light Side Force User exposed to the filth of the galaxy and the violence of war would fall. They are empaths, connected to the emotions of everyone around them and to some extent experiencing those emotions with them. On a battlefield they feel the deaths, the fear, the exaltation in victory, the terror as death approaches, the deaths of their friends and comrades. Striking out in anger, in rage, to protect their side or harm their opponents is the largely expected response for an emotionally normal individual. It's also a quick path to the Dark Side.

A Jedi? They need to be largely indifferent to that emotional tempest.

 

[Skallagrim]

So random Star Wars peeves:
Conflating the Light Side and the Jedi.

A Light Side Force User can love, have attachments, raise a family, and generally be a "normal" person without much issue. You can use the Light Side of the Force for petty bullshit and to play with.

A Jedi can't.

Jedi are individuals trusted and empowered by the Republic with the power of High, Middle, and Low justice. They are expected to walk into situations that threaten galactic stability and render a fair judgement for the good of all, and they are trusted in this role.

For a Jedi, attachments are a weakness. They can be kidnapped, threatened, or otherwise manipulated to cause the Jedi to act (or not act). A Jedi with wealth creates the perception that the Jedi is acting in consideration of their own, personal, interests instead of the interests of the Republic.

A Jedi with personal motivations and desires beyond serving the Republic to the best of their ability is basically an existential threat to the Republic because of the trust that comes inherent in being a Jedi.

A Jedi is one among ten thousand or so in a galaxy of quadrillions. Every time a Jedi acts, they are choosing not to act on ten thousand other problems that they might instead choose to interfere with.

Jedi are also exposed to the worst situations and circumstances that the galaxy has to offer. Whatever else they are, they are also effectively the highest level police force of the Republic and so get missions to investigate the worst and most powerful criminal cartels. A Jedi needs to be able to walk through a den of sex slaves being raped and not act if that is what serves the Republics long term interests.

You average Light Side Force User exposed to the filth of the galaxy and the violence of war would fall. They are empaths, connected to the emotions of everyone around them and to some extent experiencing those emotions with them. On a battlefield they feel the deaths, the fear, the exaltation in victory, the terror as death approaches, the deaths of their friends and comrades. Striking out in anger, in rage, to protect their side or harm their opponents is the largely expected response for an emotionally normal individual. It's also a quick path to the Dark Side.

A Jedi? They need to be largely indifferent to that emotional tempest.

I mean... yes, that's part of the in-universe reasoning behind it, but the main consideration was always the one you mention as an afterthought: "It's also a quick path to the Dark Side."

Maybe things are different in de Disney timeline, I'm not sure on the details there, but I got the impression that they're mostly imitating the old EU in the broad strokes when it comes to galactic history. And as far as that goes: the Jedi were just fine with "attachments" (meaning: personal relationships) of all sorts for the vast, vast majority of the long existence.

Unhealthy attachments (possessive feelings) were always considered a bad idea, for (again) the stated reason: they're a quick path to the Dark Side. But Jedi got married and had families. We know of generational lines of prominent Jedi. The Force was, indeed, strong in their families. (As Lucas phrased it in the OT, before he retconned the "no attachments" stuff into the story with the prequels.) This doesn't seem to have caused utter doom for the Jedi. In fact, for the vast majority of recorded history, nobody considered it an issue. Clearly, if Jedi are encouraged to have healthy relationships, that they can be open about (which allows them to seek out help when they need it), this works perfectly fine.

We know of two periods when relationships were forbidden (or, in the latter case, very much frowned upon): the Post-Ruusan Old Republic, and the period around Revan's time. (Which, from a Doylist perspective, is because the KotOR games were made when the Prequels were also coming out, and the creators were trying to adhere to Lucas's vision.) But for the rest of galacic history? As far as anything we're ever shown goes, Jedi had no problems with relationships and marriage at all. So these periods were outliers, and -- this may be pretty relevant -- they were both periods that featured a centralised Order, with a rather, ah... "stodgy" attitude prevailing among the leadership.

It's never made explicit, and Lucas presumably didn't mean it to be seen like this, but it's interesting that the predominance of the "relationships bad!" crowd within the Jedi Order, in both cases, also saw the fall of a prominant Jedi military leader to the Dark Side. One might infer (or at least theorise, as I do) that the dogmatic approach to this matter works for most Jedi -- at least under normal circumstances -- but leads to unhealthy emotional repression among at least some Jedi during stressful periods. So af far as "keeping Jedo from falling", it's not exactly a great method. In no way is it better than the alternative (which is to allow relationships).

Basically: if the Jedi had just been allowed to get married, Anakin and Padme could have been fine, because without the need for secrecy, he could have just asked for the guidance he wanted, without having to talk around the subject.

So, in conclusion: I personally view the "no attachments" thing as a fatal flaw of the Order; a sure sign that the manipulations of the Banite Sith have caused the Order to stagnate and calcify. Rigid, unflexible "one-size-fits-all" mandates have snuck in, and this weakens the Jedi immensely.

Something else that you say also plays into this:

A Jedi needs to be able to walk through a den of sex slaves being raped and not act if that is what serves the Republics long term interests.

This attitude also reflects the position of the "Late Republic" Jedi, and while you (seem to) agree with this sentiment, it actually shows how far the Jedi have fallen. They've become agents of the government, rather than agents of justice.

A true Jedi -- from the better days of old -- would free a slave on sight, and consequences be damned. Anyone who allows a den of sex slaves to exist deserves the consequences.

That's the difference between "following orders" and "doing what's right".

A Jedi Knight, at the very heart of it, must be "the one who does what is right". Luke is a better Jedi, in the end, than anyone we see in the Prequels. And I think that's at least somewhat intentional. The prequel-era Jedi have become enchained and constricted by dogma and bureaucracy. Same as the Republic they inhabit! And in both cases... it's fatal!

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

So random Star Wars peeves:
Conflating the Light Side and the Jedi.

A Light Side Force User can love, have attachments, raise a family, and generally be a "normal" person without much issue. You can use the Light Side of the Force for petty bullshit and to play with.

A Jedi can't.

Jedi are individuals trusted and empowered by the Republic with the power of High, Middle, and Low justice. They are expected to walk into situations that threaten galactic stability and render a fair judgement for the good of all, and they are trusted in this role.

For a Jedi, attachments are a weakness. They can be kidnapped, threatened, or otherwise manipulated to cause the Jedi to act (or not act). A Jedi with wealth creates the perception that the Jedi is acting in consideration of their own, personal, interests instead of the interests of the Republic.

A Jedi with personal motivations and desires beyond serving the Republic to the best of their ability is basically an existential threat to the Republic because of the trust that comes inherent in being a Jedi.

A Jedi is one among ten thousand or so in a galaxy of quadrillions. Every time a Jedi acts, they are choosing not to act on ten thousand other problems that they might instead choose to interfere with.

Jedi are also exposed to the worst situations and circumstances that the galaxy has to offer. Whatever else they are, they are also effectively the highest level police force of the Republic and so get missions to investigate the worst and most powerful criminal cartels. A Jedi needs to be able to walk through a den of sex slaves being raped and not act if that is what serves the Republics long term interests.

You average Light Side Force User exposed to the filth of the galaxy and the violence of war would fall. They are empaths, connected to the emotions of everyone around them and to some extent experiencing those emotions with them. On a battlefield they feel the deaths, the fear, the exaltation in victory, the terror as death approaches, the deaths of their friends and comrades. Striking out in anger, in rage, to protect their side or harm their opponents is the largely expected response for an emotionally normal individual. It's also a quick path to the Dark Side.

A Jedi? They need to be largely indifferent to that emotional tempest.

Honestly when you really think about it from that perspective, it's scary how similar The Force is To Chaos from Warhammer. I don't agree with that perspective but @Skallagrim explains it better for me than I could.

I wonder if the galaxy would be better off if people's ability to have a psychic connection to the force was forever cut off. Not killing the force itself but people's ability to connect to it. I know why the meta reason for why it would never happen *cough cough lightsaber merch cough cough* but it'd be interesting to see what the implications for be for a galaxy without force users.

 

[Emperor Tippy]

I mean... yes, that's part of the in-universe reasoning behind it, but the main consideration was always the one you mention as an afterthought: "It's also a quick path to the Dark Side."

Emotions are the path to the Dark Side. The problem is that most of the SW media wants to focus on "good guy" Force Users (i.e. Jedi) who are also "normal" people with normal people concerns and interpersonal relationships.

Maybe things are different in de Disney timeline, I'm not sure on the details there, but I got the impression that they're mostly imitating the old EU in the broad strokes when it comes to galactic history. And as far as that goes: the Jedi were just fine with "attachments" (meaning: personal relationships) of all sorts for the vast, vast majority of the long existence.

Except the Jedi never really were fine with it. Ever. The past allowed more exceptions than the Prequels era but even in KotOR era they still frowned on relationships and attachments.

Unhealthy attachments (possessive feelings) were always considered a bad idea, for (again) th stated reason: they're a quick path to the Dark Side. But Jedi got married and had families. We know of generational lines of prominent Jedi. The Force was, indeed, strong in their families. (As Lucas phrased it in the OT, before he retconned the "no attachments" stuff into the story with the prequels.)

Jedi can have all the sex and children they want. They just can't *care* about them.

What would you do for your children? For people you love? As a Jedi, you must *always* be willing to simply walk out on your family to go solve some problem on the other side of the galaxy and if some terrorist holds your family hostage you must be able to just shrug and get on with your life.

Frankly? Being a Jedi is a betrayal of your family because you will always be prioritizing others over that family.

We know of two periods when relationships were forbidden (or, in the latter case, very much frowned upon): the Post-Ruusan Old Republic, and the period around Revan's time. (Which, from a Doylist perspective, is because those games were made when the Prequels were also coming out, and the creators were trying to adhere to Lucas's vision.) But for the rest of galacic history? As far as anything we're ever shown goes, Jedi had no problems with relationships and marriage at all.

Except those are the only two time periods where we actually get to see the established Jedi at any kind of scale.

It's never made explicit, and Lucas presumably didn't mean it to be seen like this, but it's interesting that the predominance of the "relatinships bad!" crowd within the Jedi Order, in both cases, saw the fall of a prominant Jedi military leader to the Dark Side. One might infer (or at least theorise, as I do) that the dogmatic approach to this matter works for most Jedi -- at least under normal circumstances -- leads to unhealthy emotional repression among at least some Jedi during stressful periods.

Basically: if the Jedi had just been allowed to get married, Anakin and Padme could have been fine, because without the need for secrecy, he could have just asked for the guidance he wanted, without having to talk around the subject.

The Jedi failed when they allowed Obi-Wan to train Anakin in the first place. Anakin never should have been trained by the Jedi Order of that time.

And if he was going to be trained, he should have been handed to a Master who was both able and willing to break him down and rebuild him from the ground up. Obi-Wan took him out of his attachment to Qui-Gon.

And no, Anakin and Padme being allowed to be publicly married wouldn't have made everything fine. Padme was a sitting Senator, and a prominent one at that. Anakin was a Jedi and (later) General. Any Jedi involvement (especially Anakin) with anything involving Padme inherently creates the appearance of impropriety.

For all that Padme's situation played a role in Anakin's fall, it was his friendship with Palpatine that actually caused him to fall. Padme was a lever to move Anakin but she was far from the only one.

So, in conclusion: I personally view the "no attachments" thing as a fatal flaw of the Order; a sure sign that the manipulations of the Banite Sith have caused the Order to stagnate and calcify. Rigid, unflexible "one-size-fits-all" mandates have snuck in, and this weakens the Jedi immensely.

Attachments are the fatal flaw of the Order. Especially in canon. Obi-Wan's attachments to Qui-Gon and Anakin. Anakin's to his mother, Padme, and Palpatine. Luke and Leia's attachments to Kylo.

And EU? Well there is a reason that it seemed like every second "Jedi" fell to the Dark Side and went evil; and it was virtually always their attachments.

Something else that you say also plays into this:

This attitude also reflects the position of the "Late Republic" Jedi, and while you (seem to) agree with this sentiment, it actually shows how far the Jedi have fallen. They've become agents of the government, rather than agents of justice.

The Jedi are, explicitly, Knights of the Republic and have been all the way back to KotOR. Not "Knights of the Lightside" or "Knights of the Force" but of the Republic. They swore their loyalty, fealty, and service to the Republic. So yes, by definition, the Jedi were agents of the government (well the polity as a whole).

A true Jedi -- from the better days of old -- would free a slave on sight, and consequences be damned. Anyone who allows a den of sex slaves to exist deserves the consequences.

And they would fail, spectacularly, at being a Jedi or even being an agent of the Light Side.

A Jedi frees the sex slaves, and in the process makes their lives better. Or a Jedi ignores the sex slaves and as a consequence one of those slaves leads a slave revolt that frees a trillion slaves across a thousand worlds and establishes a strong anti-slavery political bloc that lasts for generations.

Tell me, is the Light Side option to free the sex slaves in front of you or to ignore them and as a consequence free trillions over centuries to come?

To act out of rage, disgust, or even moral belief is to fail as a Jedi. A Jedi is supposed to act as an agent of the Light Side and with the goal of advancing the Republic as it is the most effective means of bringing the greatest amount of good to the greatest number of people over the greatest amount of time.

That's the difference between "following orders" and "doing what's right".

A Jedi Knight, at the very heart of it, must be "the one who does what is right". Luke is a better Jedi, in the end, than anyone we see in the Prequels. And I think that's at least somewhat intentional. The prequel-era Jedi have become enchained and constricted by dogma and bureaucracy. Same as the Republic they inhabit! And in both cases... it's fatal!

Luke is a horrible Jedi whether you go by canon (Disney or otherwise) or Legends. He's a powerful Force user and an at least decently good person, but by any standard you care to use he fails as a Jedi.

---
You are basically doing exactly what I am taking issue with. You conflate the Light Side with the Jedi and "good" with both as well.

All Jedi utilize the Light Side of the Force.
Using the Light Side of the Force doesn't make you a Jedi.

Good and evil are inherently subjective terms and have no direct bearing on either the Force or the Jedi.

The Dark Side is all about individual desires, individual goals, and individual advancement. Personal advantage at the expense of the community. It's neither good nor evil in and of itself. What it is, is spectacularly selfish.

The Light Side is all about the advancement of the community. Communal advancement at the expense of the individual. Again neither good nor evil, just spectacularly uncaring about the individual.

From a societal perspective, the Light Side will of course be seen as Good. Following the Light Sides tenets results in a more stable, prosperous, society and as a consequence results in a generally better life for most people.

Trying to build a society around the Dark Side can never work in the long term. It inherently becomes a society devoted to serving the will of whomever is at its top.

---
A Light Sider with attachments is perfectly acceptable. You can marry, raise children, and generally just live a good life while also being an active user of the Light Side.

What makes that situation acceptable is that the Light Sider probably won't face any situations that seriously threaten their fall.

Take Anakin, he could have spent his life on Naboo living with Padme, working on starship design/repair, with his mother living down the street, and raising a couple of kids. He would have been perfectly content, very unlikely to fall, and probably a stabilizing and strengthening presence in his community.

Even if some random pirates decided to attack his family and he used the Force to flay them alive, well he would still probably be just fine and isn't at any great risk of falling to the Dark Side.

But as a Jedi? That's an impossibility.

Every moment he is with Padme and the kids is a moment where he is choosing not to intervene in any of the thousands of situations that could benefit from a Jedi.

Being a Jedi comes with the power, totally ignoring the Force, of life and death on a galactic scale. You are trusted to decide issues of literally cosmic importance.

A Jedi with attachments is a Jedi who can't be trusted to act impartially and so weaken the community as a whole. It is inherently antithetical to the Light Side.

If Anakin insisted on being with Padme, he should have left the Order. But he decided that he wanted the power that came from being a Jedi and wanted Padme; to the detriment of both.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

Emotions are the path to the Dark Side. The problem is that most of the SW media wants to focus on "good guy" Force Users (i.e. Jedi) who are also "normal" people with normal people concerns and interpersonal relationships.


Except the Jedi never really were fine with it. Ever. The past allowed more exceptions than the Prequels era but even in KotOR era they still frowned on relationships and attachments.


Jedi can have all the sex and children they want. They just can't *care* about them.

What would you do for your children? For people you love? As a Jedi, you must *always* be willing to simply walk out on your family to go solve some problem on the other side of the galaxy and if some terrorist holds your family hostage you must be able to just shrug and get on with your life.

Frankly? Being a Jedi is a betrayal of your family because you will always be prioritizing others over that family.


Except those are the only two time periods where we actually get to see the established Jedi at any kind of scale.


The Jedi failed when they allowed Obi-Wan to train Anakin in the first place. Anakin never should have been trained by the Jedi Order of that time.

And if he was going to be trained, he should have been handed to a Master who was both able and willing to break him down and rebuild him from the ground up. Obi-Wan took him out of his attachment to Qui-Gon.

And no, Anakin and Padme being allowed to be publicly married wouldn't have made everything fine. Padme was a sitting Senator, and a prominent one at that. Anakin was a Jedi and (later) General. Any Jedi involvement (especially Anakin) with anything involving Padme inherently creates the appearance of impropriety.

For all that Padme's situation played a role in Anakin's fall, it was his friendship with Palpatine that actually caused him to fall. Padme was a lever to move Anakin but she was far from the only one.



Attachments are the fatal flaw of the Order. Especially in canon. Obi-Wan's attachments to Qui-Gon and Anakin. Anakin's to his mother, Padme, and Palpatine. Luke and Leia's attachments to Kylo.

And EU? Well there is a reason that it seemed like every second "Jedi" fell to the Dark Side and went evil; and it was virtually always their attachments.


The Jedi are, explicitly, Knights of the Republic and have been all the way back to KotOR. Not "Knights of the Lightside" or "Knights of the Force" but of the Republic. They swore their loyalty, fealty, and service to the Republic. So yes, by definition, the Jedi were agents of the government (well the polity as a whole).


And they would fail, spectacularly, at being a Jedi or even being an agent of the Light Side.

A Jedi frees the sex slaves, and in the process makes their lives better. Or a Jedi ignores the sex slaves and as a consequence one of those slaves leads a slave revolt that frees a trillion slaves across a thousand worlds and establishes a strong anti-slavery political bloc that lasts for generations.

Tell me, is the Light Side option to free the sex slaves in front of you or to ignore them and as a consequence free trillions over centuries to come?

To act out of rage, disgust, or even moral belief is to fail as a Jedi. A Jedi is supposed to act as an agent of the Light Side and with the goal of advancing the Republic as it is the most effective means of bringing the greatest amount of good to the greatest number of people over the greatest amount of time.


Luke is a horrible Jedi whether you go by canon (Disney or otherwise) or Legends. He's a powerful Force user and an at least decently good person, but by any standard you care to use he fails as a Jedi.

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You are basically doing exactly what I am taking issue with. You conflate the Light Side with the Jedi and "good" with both as well.

All Jedi utilize the Light Side of the Force.
Using the Light Side of the Force doesn't make you a Jedi.

Good and evil are inherently subjective terms and have no direct bearing on either the Force or the Jedi.

The Dark Side is all about individual desires, individual goals, and individual advancement. Personal advantage at the expense of the community. It's neither good nor evil in and of itself. What it is, is spectacularly selfish.

The Light Side is all about the advancement of the community. Communal advancement at the expense of the individual. Again neither good nor evil, just spectacularly uncaring about the individual.

From a societal perspective, the Light Side will of course be seen as Good. Following the Light Sides tenets results in a more stable, prosperous, society and as a consequence results in a generally better life for most people.

Trying to build a society around the Dark Side can never work in the long term. It inherently becomes a society devoted to serving the will of whomever is at its top.

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A Light Sider with attachments is perfectly acceptable. You can marry, raise children, and generally just live a good life while also being an active user of the Light Side.

What makes that situation acceptable is that the Light Sider probably won't face any situations that seriously threaten their fall.

Take Anakin, he could have spent his life on Naboo living with Padme, working on starship design/repair, with his mother living down the street, and raising a couple of kids. He would have been perfectly content, very unlikely to fall, and probably a stabilizing and strengthening presence in his community.

Even if some random pirates decided to attack his family and he used the Force to flay them alive, well he would still probably be just fine and isn't at any great risk of falling to the Dark Side.

But as a Jedi? That's an impossibility.

Every moment he is with Padme and the kids is a moment where he is choosing not to intervene in any of the thousands of situations that could benefit from a Jedi.

Being a Jedi comes with the power, totally ignoring the Force, of life and death on a galactic scale. You are trusted to decide issues of literally cosmic importance.

A Jedi with attachments is a Jedi who can't be trusted to act impartially and so weaken the community as a whole. It is inherently antithetical to the Light Side.

If Anakin insisted on being with Padme, he should have left the Order. But he decided that he wanted the power that came from being a Jedi and wanted Padme; to the detriment of both.

Yeah I'm starting to think Kreia was right.

 

[Sailor.X]

So random Star Wars peeves:
Conflating the Light Side and the Jedi.

A Light Side Force User can love, have attachments, raise a family, and generally be a "normal" person without much issue. You can use the Light Side of the Force for petty bullshit and to play with.

A Jedi can't.

Jedi are individuals trusted and empowered by the Republic with the power of High, Middle, and Low justice. They are expected to walk into situations that threaten galactic stability and render a fair judgement for the good of all, and they are trusted in this role.

For a Jedi, attachments are a weakness. They can be kidnapped, threatened, or otherwise manipulated to cause the Jedi to act (or not act). A Jedi with wealth creates the perception that the Jedi is acting in consideration of their own, personal, interests instead of the interests of the Republic.

A Jedi with personal motivations and desires beyond serving the Republic to the best of their ability is basically an existential threat to the Republic because of the trust that comes inherent in being a Jedi.

A Jedi is one among ten thousand or so in a galaxy of quadrillions. Every time a Jedi acts, they are choosing not to act on ten thousand other problems that they might instead choose to interfere with.

Jedi are also exposed to the worst situations and circumstances that the galaxy has to offer. Whatever else they are, they are also effectively the highest level police force of the Republic and so get missions to investigate the worst and most powerful criminal cartels. A Jedi needs to be able to walk through a den of sex slaves being raped and not act if that is what serves the Republics long term interests.

You average Light Side Force User exposed to the filth of the galaxy and the violence of war would fall. They are empaths, connected to the emotions of everyone around them and to some extent experiencing those emotions with them. On a battlefield they feel the deaths, the fear, the exaltation in victory, the terror as death approaches, the deaths of their friends and comrades. Striking out in anger, in rage, to protect their side or harm their opponents is the largely expected response for an emotionally normal individual. It's also a quick path to the Dark Side.

A Jedi? They need to be largely indifferent to that emotional tempest.

Honestly when you really think about it from that perspective, it's scary how similar The Force is To Chaos from Warhammer. I don't agree with that perspective but @Skallagrim explains it better for me than I could.

I wonder if the galaxy would be better off if people's ability to have a psychic connection to the force was forever cut off. Not killing the force itself but people's ability to connect to it. I know why the meta reason for why it would never happen *cough cough lightsaber merch cough cough* but it'd be interesting to see what the implications for be for a galaxy without force users.

Kreia did nothing wrong. There I said it.

When you think about it the Force might be a Galaxy wide parasite that has tricked the bulk of the galaxy into thinking it is a Symbiote.