• Attention All Comstar Customers, Due to unexpected interference by suspected Word of Blake operatives, the HPG systems update was *not* successful. No data was lost due to our careful and extensive backups; however, we will need to try again next weekend. Sincerely, Comstar Precentor Dune

What If? Star Trek Federation is transported into the 40k galaxy

Crom's Black Blade

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 23, 2022
Reaction score
168
How fun, mine is, as well, and on stuff like the Garro books and a bunch of other HH and regular 40k, including Eisenhorn, Necromunda, the Fabius Bile novels, the Ahriman series and Sandy Mitchell's inquisition books.
And I welcome any evidence from there that supports your position. Namely that it is the desire to excel or having emotions alone that matters in regard to Chaos and not "rogue psykers,aliens and other Chaotically-influenced entities" that caused people to fall to Chaos.

They do so because of the actual structure of the Imperium
Needless to say I don't share your optimism concerning the Inquisition and other citied organizations. In particular their ability to maintain a meaningfully watch over any significant fraction of the Imperium population. If anything they are depicted closer to firefighters constantly putting out blazes that have long festered rather than actively preventing heresy and corruption taking root.

A case in point, if we shift to Ordo Xeno, is in Sandy Mitchell's "For the Emperor" we have a Genestealer cult which has infested its way all the way up through the leadership of the planet Gravalax up to and including the Planetary Governor being a hybrid complete with an obvious mutation of a third Genestealer like appendage.

So I don't see any evidence the upper classes are particularly resistance to corruption or Cults. Certainly societal pressure is insufficient especially with how much power is invested in the hands of the elites versus the rest of society.

very good reason why "An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded" is part of a litany, because the liberal and the openminded planets of the Dark Age of Technology were overrun by rogue psykers,aliens and other Chaotically-influenced entities.
Doesn't that disagree with your previous assertion Chaos is fueled and concerned with only emotions and desires to excel? Because that very much sounds like Chaos as I described it. As something requires an outside factor to cause corruption. To be sought out or insidiously brought in by others.

Additionally ignorance does not protect you from Chaos as the Horus Heresy very well established. So keeping your mind closed is only going to cost you in the long-run. Again the Federation viewing them as just another set of omnipotent aliens is likely going to pay massive dividends long-term both in educating their people of the threat Chaos poses, similar to the Interex, and studying ways to combat and reverse its influence.

You do not understand Chaos, and the Federation is the perfect breeding ground for it, with its innate weaknesses that are reminiscent of Humanity during the DAoT, their peacenick and anti-theist and pinko commie tendencies make them even an easier target.
Considering how long DAoT lasted, the heights they achieved, I don't think being like them is an all together bad thing. The Imperium can only exist because of the former's legacy after all. Further the Federation is a well-maintained, moral society not given to excess or indulgence with citizens that are happy and content. That's as far from a perfect breeding ground for Chaos as you can conceive of. Certainly they will have to become aware of Chaos and monitor for it but that is a doable endeavor.

I will point out that it is unclear, at least to my knowledge, if the Federation can be claimed to be anti-thiest. I don't think they preclude or discourage worship. Certainly Worf was never chastised for his religious beliefs. In the episode "Bread of Circus" Christianity was giving a very positive view while in "Who Mourns for Adonais" Kirk rejects Apollo worship of him saying humanity found " the one quite adequate".

They simply are used to aliens pulling off God guises or have God-like powers even if they don't claim to be divine ala the Q. So Chaos isn't anything that new to them in that regard even if it is a lot nastier than they are accustomed too.
 

Crom's Black Blade

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 23, 2022
Reaction score
168
Yeah, I do not see any real counter-argument here.Just some whataboutism and cherry picking and survivor bias implemented to special cases for Trek and Warhammer.
Real sorry you feel that way but I can certainly understand. We do appear to be at sharp disagreement. Please feel free to resume our discussion at your leisure if you change your mind and I hope you have a nice day!
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 25, 2019
Reaction score
24,140
Yeah, I do not see any real counter-argument here.Just some whataboutism and cherry picking and survivor bias implemented to special cases for Trek and Warhammer.
He's doing a better job than you with your endless "No you don't understand [unsupported claims]."
 

Agent23

Evrogopnik MRA ant-SJW
Joined
Jan 18, 2022
Reaction score
7,364
He's doing a better job than you with your endless "No you don't understand [unsupported claims]."
I have listed all of my sources as well as how the Imperium has to operate because of Chaos and how it operates.

The fact that he is sticking his fingers in his ears and does not agree with me is his problem, and I don't really care.
 

Crom's Black Blade

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 23, 2022
Reaction score
168
I have listed all of my sources as well as how the Imperium has to operate because of Chaos and how it operates.

The fact that he is sticking his fingers in his ears and does not agree with me is his problem, and I don't really care.
I freely admit I can be stubborn but ultimately I can no more disregard my conscious and simply acquiesce despite my doubts than I could ask you do to the same. In this case I did not find your argument convincing. My offer still stands to discuss things with you in the future should you change your mind either whole or in part.

And wish to offer my apology for any frustration I may have caused you as that was not my intent but instead to merely enjoy a frivolous, fun exercise.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 25, 2019
Reaction score
24,140
I have listed all of my sources as well as how the Imperium has to operate because of Chaos and how it operates.

The fact that he is sticking his fingers in his ears and does not agree with me is his problem, and I don't really care.
Oh bull, saying it happened in a series of books, not even able to narrow it down to a single book, isn't a useful citation. Provide a chapter and quote and maybe there's room for discussion but as is there's no telling how badly you've taken things out of context. We can take the same approach you have and come to a completely opposite conclusion.

Like this:

Fact is, we know full well the Imperium doesn't have to operate as it does because of Chaos. The Interex did just fine cooperating with Xenos peacefully and having a functioning society with science significantly more advanced than the Imperium. Chaos couldn't do squat to them, they had a demon blade right in their museum as a display piece and it couldn't so much as corrupt the\ janitor. They knew about chaos and knew how to shut chaos down, proving that the Imperium's secrecy BS was just that, BS.

Note that Chaos couldn't take the Interex, but the Imperium ruined it.

If anything they're proof of how easily the Federation can squash chaos. It's pretty common fan-theory that, in fact, the Imperium and their blatantly stupid behavior is the main thing propping chaos up and keeping it alive. There aren't any Chaos Orks, Chaos Necrons, Chaos Tyranids, Chaos Eldar, or Chaos Tau running around. Non-Imperial factions of humans also get along just fine, there are no Chaos Interex even though the Interex was interested in research and didn't worship the Emperor. Everybody and their dog apparently knows how to shut down Chaos completely... except the knotheads in the Imperium. Why?

Well, there's a subtle clue in the game's intro blurb.

It is the 41st Millennium. For more than a hundred centuries the Emperor of Mankind has sat immobile on the Golden Throne of Earth. He is the master of mankind by the will of the gods and master of a million worlds by the might of His inexhaustible armies.

Who are the gods who will that the Emperor be master of mankind? Gork and Mork don't seem to be big Emperor supporters. The C'tan and Old Ones didn't do it. Isha is a single god, not plural, and it doesn't appear she's in a good position to will things against all the forces of Chaos. By default, which gods are left who have a vested interest in the Emperor, and for what reason might they want him to remain master of mankind?

So it follows that, just as we see in-universe, everybody not following the Emperor is highly resistant to Chaos, so the Federation will be able to casually drive Chaos away because they don't have a society designed seemingly by Chaos itself to generate maximum misery and create willing converts to Chaos cults by the truckload.
 

Agent23

Evrogopnik MRA ant-SJW
Joined
Jan 18, 2022
Reaction score
7,364
Oh bull, saying it happened in a series of books, not even able to narrow it down to a single book, isn't a useful citation. Provide a chapter and quote and maybe there's room for discussion but as is there's no telling how badly you've taken things out of context. We can take the same approach you have and come to a completely opposite conclusion.

Like this:

Fact is, we know full well the Imperium doesn't have to operate as it does because of Chaos. The Interex did just fine cooperating with Xenos peacefully and having a functioning society with science significantly more advanced than the Imperium. Chaos couldn't do squat to them, they had a demon blade right in their museum as a display piece and it couldn't so much as corrupt the\ janitor. They knew about chaos and knew how to shut chaos down, proving that the Imperium's secrecy BS was just that, BS.

Note that Chaos couldn't take the Interex, but the Imperium ruined it.

If anything they're proof of how easily the Federation can squash chaos. It's pretty common fan-theory that, in fact, the Imperium and their blatantly stupid behavior is the main thing propping chaos up and keeping it alive. There aren't any Chaos Orks, Chaos Necrons, Chaos Tyranids, Chaos Eldar, or Chaos Tau running around. Non-Imperial factions of humans also get along just fine, there are no Chaos Interex even though the Interex was interested in research and didn't worship the Emperor. Everybody and their dog apparently knows how to shut down Chaos completely... except the knotheads in the Imperium. Why?

Well, there's a subtle clue in the game's intro blurb.

It is the 41st Millennium. For more than a hundred centuries the Emperor of Mankind has sat immobile on the Golden Throne of Earth. He is the master of mankind by the will of the gods and master of a million worlds by the might of His inexhaustible armies.

Who are the gods who will that the Emperor be master of mankind? Gork and Mork don't seem to be big Emperor supporters. The C'tan and Old Ones didn't do it. Isha is a single god, not plural, and it doesn't appear she's in a good position to will things against all the forces of Chaos. By default, which gods are left who have a vested interest in the Emperor, and for what reason might they want him to remain master of mankind?

So it follows that, just as we see in-universe, everybody not following the Emperor is highly resistant to Chaos, so the Federation will be able to casually drive Chaos away because they don't have a society designed seemingly by Chaos itself to generate maximum misery and create willing converts to Chaos cults by the truckload.
The interex were bullshit that did not fit in the lore and the setting and they got their asses handed to them.
Frankly I think Chaos let them exist so as to poison Horus's mind even more and because they were keeping the Kinewhatsits Anthem safe for the right people to find and nab.

The Interex were one, small example of a small piece of a once great that managed to survive Abit longer, at best they were as capable as the Imperium and they had some Eldar aid.

For Billions of Years we have maybe 2 other examples besides the Imperium that survived chaos, thousands of civilizations and millions of planet did not, and they were massively reduced even compared to the Imperium.
Stop looking at outliers, look at the trend and the averages, the Imperium is the only civilization thsr has done as well as it has, for as long as it has.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 25, 2019
Reaction score
24,140
The interex were bullshit that did not fit in the lore and the setting and they got their asses handed to them.

Frankly I think Chaos let them exist so as to poison Horus's mind even more and because they were keeping the Kinewhatsits Anthem safe for the right people to find and nab.
Disagree completely. The Interex are a critical, pivotal bit of lore. If the Imperium is actually the best way, well, that's just how it is. But the Interex shows that the Imperium is wrong, wasteful, the suffering they cause is gratuitous. The Imperiam could have been so much better, but they pissed it all away and not only made themselves worse but made it worse for the people who were better than them and could have fixed them. That is Tragedy, that is grim darkness and that is the essence of 40K.

The Interex were one, small example of a small piece of a once great that managed to survive Abit longer, at best they were as capable as the Imperium and they had some Eldar aid.

For Billions of Years we have maybe 2 other examples besides the Imperium that survived chaos, thousands of civilizations and millions of planet did not, and they were massively reduced even compared to the Imperium.
Stop looking at outliers, look at the trend and the averages, the Imperium is the only civilization thsr has done as well as it has, for as long as it has.
That's not what the actual lore says.


The technology and science of the Interex was in many ways more advanced than even that of the Imperium's, but was not as strongly focused on the waging of war.

The Interex had incredibly advanced technology available to them. At first glance, many of Horus' warriors believed the Interex to be aliens in the shape of centaurs. Later it was found the centaur base was a form of mobile fighting platform used by Interex warriors. They would walk into the base, and form a warrior who looked much like the mythological representation of a centaur with increased mobility.

They also used a type of bow or crossbow that Horus' Space Marines wrote off as decorative parade weapons, until a skirmish revealed that they could emit bolts of laser light fully capable of punching through even a Space Marine's armour.

The Interex also possessed automated drones throughout their society that were akin to advanced artificial intelligences as opposed to the Imperium's less humanitarian use of cybernetic servitors.


I'm not the one discussing outliers, all you have to do to show otherwise is point me at the Chaos Tyranid swarm, Chaos Orks, or Chaos Necrons and maybe you'll be closer to getting a point. As is your argument is based on literally saying you don't like existing canon and wish it would go away.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
Joined
Aug 12, 2019
Reaction score
22,590
Meanwhile, the Interex did do better, and Chaos couldn't do sheeit about it until their lapdogs the Imperium took care of it for them.
They also have nothing known about them and we can't just go "Because someone in the 31st before the great rift opened amd Choas grew stronger" and make a blanket statement.

That was well before Choas has the power they do now in the material realm. Choas that can fight in the material realm is a lot stronger then it was during the great crusade when they had only corrupted one of the legions.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 25, 2019
Reaction score
24,140
They also have nothing known about them and we can't just go "Because someone in the 31st before the great rift opened amd Choas grew stronger" and make a blanket statement.

That was well before Choas has the power they do now in the material realm. Choas that can fight in the material realm is a lot stronger then it was during the great crusade when they had only corrupted one of the legions.
You are correct. But you also are making my point. Why did Chaos get so much stronger? Because the Imperium doesn't really work, and in fact their actions and policies actively make Chaos stronger.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
Joined
Aug 12, 2019
Reaction score
22,590
You are correct. But you also are making my point. Why did Chaos get so much stronger? Because the Imperium doesn't really work, and in fact their actions and policies actively make Chaos stronger.
No.
They work, and the Emps tried.
But Choas using time antics caused the primearchs to be separated allowing them to start thier plan.

Thier policies are ro wipe out any and all Choas taint they can. No matter what....
Eith the exception of the inquisition and grey knights.

The thing is, both the interex and Imperium know Choas exist.

In this scenario Federation doesn't and armt prepared for such a thing to go down.

They would eventually find out like Imperium did but would be too late.

And the Imperium has good reason as at its strongest Choas managed to make them enter the age of strife due to AI
 

Agent23

Evrogopnik MRA ant-SJW
Joined
Jan 18, 2022
Reaction score
7,364
Disagree completely. The Interex are a critical, pivotal bit of lore. If the Imperium is actually the best way, well, that's just how it is. But the Interex shows that the Imperium is wrong, wasteful, the suffering they cause is gratuitous. The Imperiam could have been so much better, but they pissed it all away and not only made themselves worse but made it worse for the people who were better than them and could have fixed them. That is Tragedy, that is grim darkness and that is the essence of 40K.

That's not what the actual lore says.


The technology and science of the Interex was in many ways more advanced than even that of the Imperium's, but was not as strongly focused on the waging of war.

The Interex had incredibly advanced technology available to them. At first glance, many of Horus' warriors believed the Interex to be aliens in the shape of centaurs. Later it was found the centaur base was a form of mobile fighting platform used by Interex warriors. They would walk into the base, and form a warrior who looked much like the mythological representation of a centaur with increased mobility.

They also used a type of bow or crossbow that Horus' Space Marines wrote off as decorative parade weapons, until a skirmish revealed that they could emit bolts of laser light fully capable of punching through even a Space Marine's armour.

The Interex also possessed automated drones throughout their society that were akin to advanced artificial intelligences as opposed to the Imperium's less humanitarian use of cybernetic servitors.


I'm not the one discussing outliers, all you have to do to show otherwise is point me at the Chaos Tyranid swarm, Chaos Orks, or Chaos Necrons and maybe you'll be closer to getting a point. As is your argument is based on literally saying you don't like existing canon and wish it would go away.
Pfft, the Interex were something put in there because one of the writers was an even bigger flaming leftard than GW's norm, which is pretty bad.

In the grand scheme of things, the Interex were absolutely nothing, they kept a few more trinkets left over from the Dark age of Technology because they were minor, out of the way and a few Craftworld Eldar explained Chaos to them.
Ultimately they were just a bug on the proverbial windshield of fate.

Stop treating insignificant outliers as any type of norm, that is as silly as thinking that every Starfleet captain is as tough as Kirk or every Starfleet engineer is as good as McCoy.

The Imperium tried to be better. Then Chaos said hi
TBH the shall we call it progressively mindedness of a number of HH characters made even some of the most insufferable Trek Space Pinkos feel tolerable by comparison.

GW suffers from a very libtard-infested writers room.

I tolerate zero progressive pinko hopium in my grimdark space low fantasy.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
Joined
Aug 12, 2019
Reaction score
22,590
Hours Hersey stuff happens to be counter to a lot of 40k stuff
 

Agent23

Evrogopnik MRA ant-SJW
Joined
Jan 18, 2022
Reaction score
7,364
Hours Hersey stuff happens to be counter to a lot of 40k stuff
The word you are looking for is FUCKING DOGSHIT!

Don't get me wrong, some of the books were decent, like some of the stuff about Garro, the Mechanicum and mostly everything involving Lorgar, Perturabo and Fulgrim, but it got really old really fast.

The First heretic for instance is one of my all-time favorites and Lorgar actually makes quite a bit of sense when speaking about conservativism and faith.
Then again, he was probably doing that to show the writers' disdain where conservativism is involved.
 

Crom's Black Blade

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 23, 2022
Reaction score
168
No.
They work, and the Emps tried.
The Cabal obviously thought differently believing the Imperium was the best case scenario for the Primordial Enemy. So it's hardly just fan speculation that the Imperium is Chaos's biggest if unwitting friend. At the very minimum it's a real possibility.

The thing is, both the interex and Imperium know Choas exist.

In this scenario Federation doesn't and armt prepared for such a thing to go down.
Which would make the Federation no different than when the Interex and the Imperium found out about it. The difference is that unlike the Imperium whose Imperial Truth forbid and denied the existence of Chaos the Federation actually have experience with similar entities.
Pfft, the Interex were something put in there because one of the writers was an even bigger flaming leftard than GW's norm, which is pretty bad.
In what way were the Interex particularly left-wing? If anything I thought they were put into the story to serve as a contrast to the Imperium. A view of what it could have been instead of being the worst tendencies of human nature stapled together.

In the grand scheme of things, the Interex were absolutely nothing, they kept a few more trinkets left over from the Dark age of Technology because they were minor, out of the way and a few Craftworld Eldar explained Chaos to them.
Actually was there anything that said the Interex got their technology from the DAoT humanity? I thought the implication was their more advanced technology was due to working together with the Kinebrach as well as a more innovation-focused society in contrast to the Imperium which was a war-focused society.

Stop treating insignificant outliers as any type of norm, that is as silly as thinking that every Starfleet captain is as tough as Kirk or every Starfleet engineer is as good as McCoy.
McCoy was a starfleet doctor. Scotty was the ship's engineer. So most starfleet engineers are likely better than McCoy.
 

Agent23

Evrogopnik MRA ant-SJW
Joined
Jan 18, 2022
Reaction score
7,364
The Cabal obviously thought differently believing the Imperium was the best case scenario for the Primordial Enemy. So it's hardly just fan speculation that the Imperium is Chaos's biggest if unwitting friend. At the very minimum it's a real possibility.
The Cabal made things worse and the Space Elves killed them off.


Which would make the Federation no different than when the Interex and the Imperium found out about it. The difference is that unlike the Imperium whose Imperial Truth forbid and denied the existence of Chaos the Federation actually have experience with similar entities.
More straw grasping regarding the federation's ability to do stuff.

Refresh my memory, wasn't a large portion of Stardleet's upper ranks basically taken over by some bug-like parasites in one TNG episode?

And then there is the problem of the Founders infiltrating them during the Dominion War.

The Federation as a whole is pretty bad about dealing with subversive infiltrators.

In what way were the Interex particularly left-wing? If anything I thought they were put into the story to serve as a contrast to the Imperium. A view of what it could have been instead of being the worst tendencies of human nature stapled together.
In the Mary Sue openminded, xeno-loving here to rain on our 40k grimdark parade sort of way.
It was a direct jab at the fandom and at the setting, but ultimately they were destroyed and served a purpose in Chaos's grand scheme, so they were of some use.

Actually was there anything that said the Interex got their technology from the DAoT humanity? I thought the implication was their more advanced technology was due to working together with the Kinebrach as well as a more innovation-focused society in contrast to the Imperium which was a war-focused society.
Humm, a remnant of humanity that did not get smashed back to single planet technobarbarian status having advanced technology you say?

I mean it can't be leftovers from the DAoT, can it?

Like maybe it was for every single other human remnant.

However, the biggest test to their viability, that being their continued existence in the face of Chaos's machinations, failed, they were all exterminated.

McCoy was a starfleet doctor. Scotty was the ship's engineer. So most starfleet engineers are likely better than McCoy.
Very funny dodge attempt, but my point about outliers and consistent organization-level performance stands and the silly dodge does not work.
Obviously you are getting tired of losing.
 
Top Bottom